Raider to Non-Raider: an exhibition on thoughts and misconceptions

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Originally Posted by Veralidaine

You said olive branch and that made me think of olive garden and that's as far as I got

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Thats OK, the OP used the Olive Branch to beat on the post he used as the basis for this topic, so we may need a new branch.

I am not unsympathetic to your plight but what are your suggestions that aren't "take stuff away from people who aren't as good as me"? That seems to be the common suggestions made by those who have come to be seen as "speaking" for the Hard Core Raider. What is going to motivate you that isn't new story(because that does defeat the whole purpose of having a storymode) or ILs(because appparently that's not enough) or even challenge(because its too similar to NM) Achievements and rare drops don't seem to be enough

Would bringing out Savage and NM at the same time help? I've seen that bandied around the board and I don't see how that would hurt anyone. Does Savage Mode have to be as different from Normal Mode as Extremes are from HMs in primals?

Im only really going to comment on the issue of story which is the only thing I think I can fairly comment on since I haven't raided Savage.

One of the issues with BCoB was it was exclusive. It was story the majority of the player base didn't have access to. Sure it didn't require the level of skill Savage does but it still required time investment and good teamwork. The majority of players probably never saw past turn 9. If they even got that far.

The very fact there was a story version of Alex was to address that. That's why its called Story. This is because having story content locked behind harder content and content that requires structure denies players access to that story if they don't have the time or skill or even the contacts within the community to access it. This is untrue for raiders. Raiders who can do that content are not limited access in any way to any other story within the game. For non raiders this understandably feels very unfair. Do remember that the number of structured raiders make up a pretty small percentage of the total player base. Having such a set up makes raiders seem 'exclusive' or favoured, even if it isn't the case since they have access to things simply because of the play style they favour.

This is where giving Savage versions unique stories is an issue. Its hard to do that without it coming across as making no raiders 'second class' players.

Perhaps part of the solution is in glamour. If the Savage sets looked notably more impressive than the non savage, rather than just dyeable, they would still make the raiders stand out without denying non raiders narrative. The raiding sets from Coil stood out pretty well in 2.x.

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Originally Posted by zlol365

Then we have people just in it for the story. I agree with the OP on this. The reason why many people wanted to attempt coil was for the story. when you have a story that is gated behind the raid, in some sense, people want to attempt it, just to experience the story, which perhaps to them was the only reward. So please do understand that when Alex normal came out then savage alex, to find content that has become more difficult then Coil (Savage alex) has no more of that story reward, sort of kills off the motivation. Please understand not from your casual lenses or your hardcore lenses and see that these people started raiding because of WHAT Coil offered in terms of story. When you take that motivation out, they would just rather stick to norm alex or eventually just lose motivation for alex savage.

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If all you want is story, why do Savage at all? If something isn't fun don't do it.

If you want challenge, why complain about it being too hard? If you like challenge, then embrace it.

If you want better gear, why do you think you deserve it without doing punishing content? If you want to be better than other players, BE BETTER than other players.

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Originally Posted by zlol365

He's trying to get you all to feel us and not treat us like thrash on the forums. Though honestly, I don't give a dam about people who disparage raiders here. Forums tend to reflect only 20% of people who tend to be vocal, while there's a 80% silent majority. Its true forums can represent the community to a certain extent, but not always.

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Um, not sure if you know this but the population of forum posters here, is quite heavily skewed towards hardcore players and raiders, at least that has been my experience for more than two years, which contrasts deeply to the actual game where the vast majority of players are not hardcore, or raiders. For more than two years, non-hardcore, non-raider voices on this forum have tended to be drowned out, so it's quite amusing to see the hardcore/raider community acting like the down-trodden.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Im only really going to comment on the issue of story which is the only thing I think I can fairly comment on since I haven't raided Savage.
One of the issues with BCoB was it was exclusive. It was story the majority of the player base didn't have access to. Sure it didn't require the level of skill Savage does but it still required time investment and good teamwork. The majority of players probably never saw past turn 9. If they even got that far.

The very fact there was a story version of Alex was to address that. That's why its called Story. This is because having story content locked behind harder content and content that requires structure denies players access to that story if they don't have the time or skill or even the contacts within the community to access it. This is untrue for raiders. Raiders who can do that content are not limited access in any way to any other story within the game. For non raiders this understandably feels very unfair. Do remember that the number of structured raiders make up a pretty small percentage of the total player base. Having such a set up makes raiders seem 'exclusive' or favoured, even if it isn't the case since they have access to things simply because of the play style they favour.

This is where giving Savage versions unique stories is an issue. Its hard to do that without it coming across as making no raiders 'second class' players.

Perhaps part of the solution is in glamour. If the Savage sets looked notably more impressive than the non savage, rather than just dyeable, they would still make the raiders stand out without denying non raiders narrative. The raiding sets from Coil stood out pretty well in 2.x.

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I think perhaps adding a few features that we can meet half way on:

Alex NM and Alex Savage should come out at the same time imo.

I also think there should be zero requirements to beat normal before you can access SV.

I think the gear sets between normal and savage should be distinctly different past dye. Both normal and savage sets should be dyable if they are made visually distinct.

There either needs to be a 3rd level of difficulty or alex savage needs to have it's difficulty curved smoothed out a bit where a4s is about the difficulty of a3s.

They could give the raid weapons back the 5 ilvl bump above the rest of the ilvl210 gear out there.

They could hype the release of savage if it had to be delayed. They could make a bunch of fates spawn up to the savage release about alex reanimating and we have to go back in and take down the "repaired & super charged" versions of the boss. Just make it more interesting than, "hey I am just making an exaggerated recount of your past deeds, cheers!"

Improve the overall story of alex

Put titles back in per savage turn kill.

Throw in some dusk born aethrsand and a few other common mats in the chests, make them feel more like a treasure trove of goodies.

Those are just some ideas off of the top of my head that have almost no impact on alex normal.

If you really want to talk compromise, there should be an optional boss unrelated to the lore of the raid thrown in every new savage tier. Sort of how world of warcraft has ra-den, sinistra, algalon, etc. Those bosses had very big lore implications. The FFXIV rendition could be like "this rogue Illuminati gobbie recovered the oppressor and living fluid bodies and made a hybrid boss with both their attributes." Not exactly a great tie back to lore, but a good avenue to reuse game assets to make raiders happy without giving any extra story to the game. The boss could drop maybe a dealer's choice kind of gear token that allows the static to trade one token for any of the alex savage loot? That way they are gaining no new items other than stuff they would already have access to.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Um, not sure if you know this but the population of forum posters here, is quite heavily skewed towards hardcore players and raiders, at least that has been my experience for more than two years, which contrasts deeply to the actual game where the vast majority of players are not hardcore, or raiders. For more than two years, non-hardcore, non-raider voices on this forum have tended to be drowned out, so it's quite amusing to see the hardcore/raider community acting like the down-trodden.

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Could you just please leave the thread? You are not here to help solve anything other than inflate your own self importance like some true voice of reason that can cut through all the BS. You're being vitriolic and one of the worst offenders. Rather than try to bridge the gap between us you are just hammering wedges into the cracks hoping you get more responses to your tired arguments and straw mans.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Elitism? Lol, yeah, right, i'll just take my LVL 53 PLD, and point out it's my best class. Hardly elite or elitist, and befor you claim reverse snobbery, it's got nothing to do with that for me, I am just not content to sit by while people propose to alter the game to suit tem, in ways that are detrimental to the majority of players.

Far from elitism, I'm simply sick and tired of the crying and whining coming from the contingent of 'raiders' who essentially want modifications to Normal/Savage modes of Alexander altered to make things more relevant to them. That is what this topic is about isit not? I replied both to this topic and the thoughts or expressions I have seen in similar topics for the last week. Frankly, it's getting a bit boring to read all the whining from people saying either NM spoiled/ruined Savage, so lets delay NM in future as if that changes anything; or Savage offers no incentive because the gear is not worth the effort.

It's become so very boring to read over and over because it all appears to me to boil down to people who either wore themsrlves out grinding gear in NM Alexander forgetting that it was their choice, or people who claim to want a challenge but then say there is no incentiveror running Alex Savage.


Since you only need to complete Normal Mode once to run Savage mode, evry additional time you run Normal mode is a choise you make. It is not mandatory to run Alex Normal to gear up for asavage mode, it's simply a quicker path than accumulating tomes. The point is, you want it now, not later so you choose to grind Alexander Normal for gear.


I wasn't referring to overgearing Alexander I was simply pointing out that the frustration some appear to have is that Alexander Savage is too difficult in their current gear and so they either wait, obtain gear gradually, and then run it when appriopriately geared, or grind Normal mode. Point being that more casual players have had to show anythin up to 18 months of patience so that they are adequately geared (effectively overgearing the content to reduce the difficiculty) to take on coil. Expecting raiders to wait a couple of months to obtain gear adequate for their skill level hardly seems severe by comparison. I'll be rocking gear from 4.X before I can try Alex Savage, should I complain about the length of My gear grind?


So, there is in fact an option other than grinding Normal, it just takes toolong for your liking, so you intentionally grind the hell out od NM hoping the RNG completes your gear set for your main job, so you can ,ove on to Savage. But, by your own words, there is an option, but you personally discount it becauseyou don't want to be patient. Thanks for confirming what I was writing about.

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You say you don't play endgame, yet you spout with such certainty what raiders want and assert their problems for them...

If you're so bored, there are plenty of non raid related threads. If we are the minority that no one cares about, SE has those stats and you have nothing to fear. Just leave us do as we wish. We can type our feedba.... er, I mean complaining in these threads with the civil people and you can go about your business like we don't exist.

I sit here to type out the the best post I could in the most constructive and non-inflammatory manner as possible and you still manage to be vitriolic and abrasive.

Also, your point about raiders "having a choice" is terrible. That's no better than saying non-raiders should just "git gud" that they have "choice" and they simple "choose" to ignore improving and trying raiding. Both are terrible arguments.

If you want to actually help create meaningful dialogue, great, I would love to hear what you have to say. Otherwise, you are being just as rude as the stereotype you denounce so much.

Most raiders would still do the raids with 0 story.

Most raiders I've come across raid for one main reason: kicking a boss's ass with friends is awesome.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Um, not sure if you know this but the population of forum posters here, is quite heavily skewed towards hardcore players and raiders, at least that has been my experience for more than two years, which contrasts deeply to the actual game where the vast majority of players are not hardcore, or raiders. For more than two years, non-hardcore, non-raider voices on this forum have tended to be drowned out, so it's quite amusing to see the hardcore/raider community acting like the down-trodden.

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Any thread mentioning parsers, content difficulty, or the state of the Duty finder would like a word with you.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

IThe very fact there was a story version of Alex was to address that. That's why its called Story.

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Actually, it's called Alexander: Gordias. Players are called it "Story" because it's easier than the Binding Coil of Bahamut was.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Any thread mentioning parsers, content difficulty, or the state of the Duty finder would like a word with you.

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Lol, parsers are not something used by the more cadual end of the spectrum, the state of duty finder find just as many critics in one group of players as any other group. As for difficulty, complaints about that are one of the things that prompt my cynicism about some raiders - given we have suggestions to rebalance Alexander Savage at ilvl 190, andothers complaining it's too stiff a dps check. This forum has (imho) always had a disproportionately high representation from the hardcore and/or raider communities. I suspect it always will.