Midgarsormr and his children

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

Exactly, his actions make even less sense if that gets confirmation

---

Releasing the Aether released the primals. The primal, or eikon, interference is the thing that ACTUALLY turned away the main Garlean invasion force (one popped up basically immediately after the conquering of Ala Mhigo and Garlemald went 'nope, fuck this, we out') and led to a division in Garlemald about whether Eorzea was worth the trouble, leaving only Nael (who wanted at Allag) and Gaius (who wants to save the world from the eikons) and, if memory serves, the new emperor, as the only members of the Garlean politick that actually think Eorzea is worth the trouble with those THINGS stomping about (and, honestly, with Ultima weapon broken, they're probably right to think Eorzea isn't).

The primals are also the only things really capable of resisting a concentrated Garlean assault. Or were at least. With Ironworks churning out magitek gear now, maybe that won't continue to be the case, but Eorzea (like everywhere else) has no real defense against concentrated Garlean assault given the massive differences in technology level and man power.

In other words, him smashing the seal is the reason this game takes place in Eorzea and not 'a prefecture of Garlemald'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krylo

The primals are also the only things really capable of resisting a concentrated Garlean assault.

---

You sure about that? Midgardsormr seemed to be putting up a pretty good resistance himself, right before he decided to go kamikaze on the Agrius and destroy Mor Dhona in the process. Had he not coiled himself around the Agrius and perished in the crash, perhaps he could have done something about Nael van Darnus and Dalamud... Instead he just napped through all that, again, really doesn't make me think highly of him...

What does he even care if Garlemald conquered Eorzea? If that mattered to him, he'd have stopped them at Ala Mhigo, or even further back. He only cares about the lake, because Hydaelyn seems to have ordered him to guard it; Something he plainly failed to do when he crashed the Agrius into it. If it was a tactical choice to halt Garlemald... Well, that makes even less sense if you consider what Lahabrea says about the Primals and them being necessary to their plan. Their plan to kill Hydaelyn. Not the wisest of plans there Middy...

I can perhaps see him coiling round the Agrius as a vain attempt to try and stop it smashing into the seal, but that still doesn't exactly improve my opinion of him... In the English localization he comes off as incredibly condescending, which considering his numerous failings (if we go back to Allag times) just makes him unlikable. Had he just taken out the Agrius before it was right on top of the seal, that would have halted Garlemald. If he didn't "kill" himself in the process, he could still deter any future advances. The Primal issue wouldn't be nearly as big as it currently is, which would suck for the Ascians. The Meteor Project probably never would have managed to drop Dalamud on Eorzea. Overall we'd be in a better position as far as lore goes. Makes for a boring game, but I'm not saying such things should have happened, I'm simply pointing out that most everything can be blamed on old Middy, so he should damn well drop that high-and-might attitude of his and get used to being a mount.

They can perhaps turn things around by going it detail regarding the events, but until then Middy just comes off as incompetent and snobbish. For example, destroying the seal could have been necessary to help Hydaelyn in some way. Personally though, I'm not convinced the seal is even canon anymore. I much prefer the theory that Middy was guarding Crystal Tower, to prevent anyone from accessing it and unleashing Dalamud/Bahamut. He still failed at that of course, but it gives good motivation for him to assault the Agrius; Garlemald (Cids father specifically, IIRC) was testing a way to call down Dalamud at Bozja Citadel, then they come flying over to where Crystal Tower rests? Not hard to connect the dots there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashrak

I've heard that Bahamut is one of Midgarsormrs descendants (resurrected as Primae, as Shiva who was once a ordinary human/elezen(?)). Has that proven to be a mistake?

---

Bahamut was indeed a son of Midgarsormr. He died a long time ago though :( Poor lad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

The true enemy is almost certainly Ascians. Ascians probably manipulated Ishgard into pissing off Nidhogg. Ascians probably gave Nidhogg dragon rabies. Rather than fighting Ascians though, both are fighting each other.

---

Ishgardians came here because "Halone showed them where they had to build the Holy City". Halone. FFS if the Ascians aren't behind that, it would refute all I've been theorizing about them. It's perfectly plausible they summoned Halone with the cult to gain control over the whole Ishgardian people (and start a long lasting war hurting Hydaelyn in the process) and assisted them after to ensure the conflict lasts long enough (where does that anti-dragon barrier comes from in the first place ? And why would Ysayle be able to break it like that ?).

Though with Lahabrea supposedly teaching to Ysayle how to summon Shiva (Theory "Lahabrea linked to Mateus and Ice summonings in general") it's a little strange, as she's acting against their 1000 years old strategy by quickening the war and urging the annihilation of whatever the dragons want to destroy in Ishgard (probably the Pope and the Ascians controlling him)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

Also, if this expansion doesn't give us an Assault of the Silver Dragons... I'm gonna be so mad... I'm imagining 3.55 having Varis launch a new assault on Eorzea, with us leading Ishgard and dragons against it. Would be like 1.0s opening but a million times more epic.

---

I'd vote for that. Give me that. Please SE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

Possible, though that doesn't exactly make for a compelling justification for the genocide of an entire civilization. More so when you consider Nidhogg is well over 1,000 years old and, even if things had been rosy, Shiva would have died of old age long ago. Although dying a martyr means she gets to be an immortal Primal...

---

Maybe (I'm being crazy here and nothing directly points at that in the lyrics) he's super mad because Shiva was bearing.. Their child ? IF such an union is possible, and they have offspring, then the Church would surely just burn her in place on the spot. The lyrics say :

Quote:

---

Two souls intertwined

One true love they did find

Bringing land and heavens near

But flames that burn full bright, soon fell dark

Memories dimmed by shadowed hearts

---

Implying that their relationship may not have been so "secret" in the first place. Then, there is that :

Quote:

---

One soul's cry

A passion dwelling within

Sacrifice, a final plea to her kin

Yet this bond of hope, by treachery was broke

---

There is room for interpretation, but I think it is possible that the lovers had a child. Then she was burned by the madness of the cult. Dragons living as old as they do, it's possible that Nidhogg just couldn't mourn his loss yet (would a human be able to go over it within a few month/years if their SO got murdered horribly while bearing their child, and with the murderers going freely around ? Not sure. Chances are they'd try to make justice by themselves).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belhi

I don't think Nidhogg had a thing with Shiva. I think it was Hraesvelgr.

---

also there may be that. That would explain the retirement of Hraesvelgr, and the uproar in the war caused by Nidhogg (who had already lost his eye at that point iirc) might have been because he couldn't accept that his brother never tried to avenge Shiva. That would also explain why we negotiate with the white dragon and not the crazy one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lolopika

Mmh I totally missed it, it's really stated clearly...

Still, I don't think Bahamut is in this picture, so... there's still some mystery!

Midgardsormr and the Seven dwa... Dragon Sons :)
http://i61.tinypic.com/2v2a4ue.jpg

---

We don't know the true form of Bahamut though. The one who wrecked Eorzea was a summoned form, just like the one we see in Coil. If we can accept that Ifrit = Belias under an other name and appearance due to different believes at the time of Belias (so basically, a summon of fire taking the appearance and name the summoner wants it to have), Bahamut's appearance might have changed a bit through his summoning.

My personnal guess would be either : the lowest one, red-ish with an avian beak, or he's not on the picture and this picture actually doesn't show the 7 sons :o

(also,it may be possible that the "7 sons" refer only to living 7 sons, as Bahamut is dead since a long time.)


I hope my thoughts can serve as fodder for new theories ^^

Considering how massive the Agrius is, I don't blame Midgardsormr for dying in the process of taking it down, he may have failed in preventing that seal keeping the primal locked up from keeping them locked up but shoot for all we know Agrius crashed itself into the lake, he at least stopped the ship. Plus let's be honest, he destroys(or seals depending on translation) hydaelyn's blessing because by the time we get to Midgarsormr we've been using and draining Hydaelyn for a good while, so it makes sense for him to stop that too. Who knows why he didn't help Bahamut and the Mercydians, I would wager on the fact that if they enslaved Bahamut who was already a massive primal, Midgardsormr wouldn't even have stood a chance, and I'm sure as hell glad he didn't up and get enslaved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuwagami

(also,it may be possible that the "7 sons" refer only to living 7 sons, as Bahamut is dead since a long time.)

---

I had a similar thought, but then I remembered that we initially got "seven sons" directly from the horses mouth; When we met Midgardsormr he said he sired seven sons. Were one or more deceased, he'd still have sired seven. Although seven strikes me as an odd number, since if I remember my Final Fantasy VI correctly, there were eight legendary dragons. Perhaps Bahamut was just disowned to the point he is no longer counted, perhaps an eighth will be born as a result of current events. I would like to connect each of the Celestial Dragons to an Era... The first Era, I believe, was Wind-aspected. Tiamat should be Wind-aspected, considering she was historically the Elemental Fiend of Wind...

Personally I like to theorize that Midgardsormr isn't some all powerful being, but instead the lone survivor of Meracydia, perhaps experimented on by the Allag, or just gifted with power from Hydaelyn. Bahamut is related to Middy, but not as a son, instead as an ancient ancestor. Primal Bahamut gets sent up into space, Xandes causes a Calamity, world lies in ruins. Allag Warriors of Light (See: Crystal Tower dialog) survive and and become legends, today being remembered as the Twelve. They discover Middy and, regretting what happened to Meracydia and the events that follow, strike a deal; Midgardsormr will guard Crystal Tower and prevent its misuse and they will not harm dragons again. Perhaps Middy had seven sons in order for them to fill a similar role, we certainly have Allag structures in the sky that I imagine we'd want to avoid falling into the wrong hands, sit Nidhogg up there to defend it. Fast forward a few Eras and Ishgard turns up, decides to settle next to the Sea of Clouds where they could perhaps access these Allag ruins (note: the promotional page mentions that Ishgard is embracing Airship technology and building a new frontier in the Sea of Clouds, Middy mentioned they were about to make a "second sin"...). Nidhogg takes note of this and decides to check it out, loses and eye and starts a war (another thing to note, Ishgard followed Halone, Halone was a warrior (why do the Twelve have such mundane occupations again? Hint Hint, they were real people once), an Allagan warrior who fought in Meracydia and perhaps resents dragons somewhat as a result?). Probably didn't happen over night, perhaps they were fairly neutral at first, Shiva eventually falls for a dragon/Nidhogg, maybe Thordan I got jelly. Throw in some Ascians and you've got a war. Fast forward nearly 1,000 years, Cids father in Garlemald has completed construction of Bozja Citadel, which houses a device with the intention of accessing Dalamud, dubbed "The Meteor Project", effectively a remake of Crystal Tower. Midgardsormr takes note of this, and then the Agrius start flying towards Mor Dhona, the resting place of Crystal Tower, queue aggression from Middy, Garlean intend would seem pretty clear if you connect the dots... Interesting fact; Mor Dhona was, in legend, described as the center of the world and source of all Aether. Crystal Tower became the center of the Allagan Empire (which spanned the entire globe) and was the source of all their power. Coincidence? I think not!

Seven Celestial Dragons though... I'm going to guess they're all tied to the Seven Umbral/Astral Eras in some way... Seventh Astral Era was believed to be the last, since each was tied to one of the six elements (in order, Wind, Lightning, Fire, Earth, Ice, Water). In actuality there should be eight (add Dark and Light to the list). Seventh Era is thus Darkness aspected, Nidhogg is the seventh son, certainly gives off a dark vibe (Hraesvelgr Ice? Perhaps a Shiva connection there? For the full picture of all of them, top right Lightning? Tiamat in green being Wind. That middle one being Earth. Two left somehow Fire and Water, Water seems really hard to figure out...). We save the day in Heavesnward, restore Hydaelyns power somewhat, Midgardsormr has his eighth and final child, marking the start of the eighth Era and giving us a full set of eight legendary/Celestial Dragons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalien

Snip

---

Midgardsomr is the first dragon though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

snip

---

According to himself. Or rather, according to texts written AFTER it and using the cult of the Twelves.

though this :

Quote:

---

Allag Warriors of Light (See: Crystal Tower dialog) survive and and become legends, today being remembered as the Twelve. They discover Middy and, regretting what happened to Meracydia and the events that follow, strike a deal; Midgardsormr will guard Crystal Tower and prevent its misuse and they will not harm dragons again.

---

Is actually quite hard to believe, as there would have been traces of this throughout Eorzean history. Mid could have lied to the entire world the whole time, with some sort of mass mind-confusing magic to create the myth, but it becomes really hard to justify it in the lore we already have.

Also, Bahamut is definitively not the first dragon ever (being of the first brood) so even if Midgarsormr wasn't his father, he would be his brother logically, as Mid is the earliest dragon known to existence in the lore.

It's also still possible that Midgarsormr doesn't recognize Bahamut as a child of him altogether, for whatever he might have done before perishing. We don't even know the date and circumstances of Bahamut's death. Maybe Mid killed him in a ferocious battle at some point

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

According to everything we know so far, and given that he's the largest dragon in the world and the oldest and also apparently immortal and also able to strip Hydaelyn's blessing from us, it's a safe bet that he's probably the first dragon.

---

Oh yeah, I was just pointing out that the lore is very shady about that for now. Though pointing out that Midgarsormr is the very first dragon Eorzea came to know, thus effectively making him the first dragon as far as we know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuwagami

snip

---

According to everything we know so far, and given that he's the largest dragon in the world and the oldest and also apparently immortal and also able to strip Hydaelyn's blessing from us, it's a safe bet that he's probably the first dragon.

Waiting for someone to mention Shinryu, since he hasn't propped up anywhere, yet.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Shinryu

The Garleans actually attacked Silvertear Lake. If I remember correctly, they knew it was a place of spiritual significance to the people's of Eorzea. This is because it is known as the fount of all aether. Middy was charged with protecting it. Anyway, the Garleans attacked specifically to gain control of a spiritual place to screw with the morale of the people of Eorzea. This is a common military tactic. They knew of the tales of a protector but dismissed said tales as just folk lore. So basically Middy was just doing his job protecting the source of all aether and the Garleans ate completely at fault for most everything.