Dragoon: top dps and easiest melee class by far ?

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Originally Posted by Casper

Really ? The most demanding ? How so ? You still had only 2 positionnals to do. Assuming your tank wasn't a moron, it was a far cry from what mnk had to deal with (positionnals on all non dots attacks)

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Because even with a good tank bosses tend to move and turn around A LOT, you had no choice but to learn the fights if you didn't want to mess up your rotation. It was (and still is) the easier melee to play on a dummy but having played monk a lot I feel DRG is (was :O ) harder on actual fights.

MNK : Position required attacks everywhere + The need to keep up Grease Lightning to make good DPS.

Dragoon: 2 Position required attacks to max DPS --- The need to keep anything up but Heavy Thrust buff ( which is every 30s and can be put up anytime the like)

Ninja : Mudra + Ninjutsu ( no lag, no mistake, in correct order) + 1 Heavy Punishmenr Attack if fail + Normal rotation.

My conclusion:Out of all three, with my eyes closed, Dragoon will still pull out big number, and leave the other twos behind with a large margin. Oh and please don't tell me use your Off GCD ability is hard. I can have all of them on one macro and literally, it is the same as Brd. Press one Attack + spam 1 button = Profit...

Before the buff: Yes Dragoon was hard. After the buff: Dragoon is now a Faceroll class...

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Originally Posted by LionKing

MNK : Position required attacks everywhere + The need to keep up Grease Lightning to make good DPS.

Dragoon: 2 Position required attacks to max DPS --- The need to keep anything up but Heavy Thrust buff ( which is every 30s and can be put up anytime the like)

Ninja : Mudra + Ninjutsu ( no lag, no mistake, in correct order) + 1 Heavy Punishmenr Attack if fail + Normal rotation.

My conclusion:Out of all three, with my eyes closed, Dragoon will still pull out big number, and leave the other twos behind with a large margin. Oh and please don't tell me use your Off GCD ability is hard. I can have all of them on one macro and literally, it is the same as Brd. Press one Attack + spam 1 button = Profit...

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Yeah, sure. Try macroing jumps. Wanna see you jumping into a Nerve Gas because you were pressing "buttons". There is a perfect reason good dragoons don't bother macroing. Besides, that's 20s, not 30.

I do have Jump Macro. If you know Nerve gas is coming and you press Jump ( if you actually put all of your OFf GCD to one macro and you know Jump is the next order if you press the macro), you are a M-O-R-O-N..

Not sure why you'd macro anything on DRG. Regardless, lets see some FCoB numbers before continuing all the whining and bickering. None of these melee jobs are even close to lowest on the DPS totem pole at current.

following:
So let us see - MNK has to keep stacks up, dragon kick and Twin Snakes
Dragoon has to keep heavy thrust up and Disembowel and they have to effectively use Power and Life Surge
None require positionals to keep it up. It seems to me that both classes have it the same.

When it comes to no global cooldown moves:

MNK has steel peak and howling fist and Mercy Stroke
DRG has Jump, leg sweep, Spineshatter dive, Dragondive and Mercy Strokeo
So DRG has more movest to take into account.

Monk has Touch of Death and Demolish
DRG has Chaos Trust and Phlebotomize
So both are equally the same

MNK has a 10% INT decrease and a good Mantra
DRG has a 10% BRD buff and a Mantra that is pretty much never used.
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So in all fairness, what seems to be the problem here?

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

In terms of a complete stand still fight:MNK > DRG > NIN

MNK has the most positionals, but honestly it works like any other job where things just flow once you play it enough. DRG has a long rotation but you eventually get to the point where you don't even need to think about it. The differences are pretty minor, the main thing is that MNK has to move a lot so that puts it slightly ahead of DRG. DRG and MNK even out by the long rotation vs Mudras (same amount of muscle memory required), but DRG still has 2 positionals he needs to hit for max DPS so DRG pulls ahead by a hair.

On a random boss spinning fight/bad tank scenario:

MNK > DRG > NIN

Before it would be DRG > MNK, but now that positionals aren't required and DRGs only suffer a minor DPS loss from not hitting them, MNK remains harder due to constant positional loss. NIN has one positional so... yea.

Point is, none of them are really that demanding, though before now missing a positional as DRG meant more than it did for a MNK.

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"Long rotation" ?

Dude you even have a rotation ! All other jobs use a priority system on the fly, because there is no "rotation". If you want to do a ninja rotation it is going to be 60+moves long. Get it together.

Assuming you do a priority system like mnks and nins, you need to select, each time, if you go FT, CT, P or HT. Same as a Nin that decides between AE, DE, SF or M. Mnk is similar too.

As for Off GCD, all three share invigorate, BfB, raging. Then dragoon has leg sweep, life surge, jump, spineshatter and dragonfire dives. Nothing hard on that, just hit one when they are ready during an off GCD. Ninja has a bunch too (3) and mnk a bit less but still, nothing hard about that. Yeah there is animation lock, so don't use it during nerf gas, woohoo. Nin has an ass long animation lock on one of the three too and its going to kill you two if you use it at the wrong time.

So it really comes down, before the nerf, to:

1) positionnals for 6 different attacks, all over the place, none too punishing if missed (plus GL3 but baring special circumstances this is not something a mnk need to take care of, just keep hitting stuff)
2) positionnals for 2 attacks, mediumly punishing (yeah because if you missed HT or ID you could just reuse it directly, without screwing it up, so you just had one GCD semi-wasted on a 100 potency attack)
3) positionnal for 1 attack, much more punishing than any other (there is no coming back for trick attack, you miss it, the 35 dps it gives is gone for the whole minute), PLUS the mudras (and this is not as easy as others are making it to be).

Post patch, change that for 2 attack, not punishing at all for drg. As i said, should you do them completely randomly you will lose 1.5% dps at worst. A mnk doing the same would lose about 15% dps - it is literally 10 time more punishing, and they have 3 times as much to hit than you. A ninja still remains with the most harsh punishment for missing any trick attack positionning or mudra -- missing out a huton is going to tank the dps of the ninja by half what it would be for a mnk to lose GL3 without PB up, for a whole minute, and we all know how bad that is.




Look, as i said, the buffs for resistance and damage where welcome and justified. But they dumbed down drg to the ground -- there is literally nothing hard about it now, and it is easier than both mnk or nin by several orders.

What's next from SE, GL stack on every MNK GCD, one button Ninjutsu?

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

What's next from SE, GL stack on every MNK GCD, one button Ninjutsu?

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Pretty much. Also trick attack: 300 potency action, 400 from behind, give 10% damage boost from anywhere.

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Originally Posted by LionKing

I do have Jump Macro. If you know Nerve gas is coming and you press Jump ( if you actually put all of your OFf GCD to one macro and you know Jump is the next order if you press the macro), you are a M-O-R-O-N..

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Then pray tell me, how would you design that macro? Leg sweep is the same as using Howling fist. Jump should be used with Power Surge if it's available, and unless you put Jump into another hotbar slot, which would be pointless since I could just use it on another keybind, the macro doesn't allow you that.

So we got Life Surge, which should be (have been) saved for Blood for Blood for Full Thrust. Power Surge, which you can't use on anything but Jump. And then we got Blood for Blood, which sometimes had to be saved in case of massive damage spikes incoming (Electroburst) if we really want to be that cautious. Internal release can be used whenever, but you can macro that too on Monk. It seems more more of a hassle to create said macro/macros on dragoon, rather than creating one for monk.

Monks have a 7 skills rotation, whereas dragoons have an 8 skills rotation. Wow, such difficulty gap. Positional difficulty? Dragoons got yelled at more than monks ("it's your fault for not predicting"), so I don't see why now I should say that monks are so much harder because of this. Since, you know, I had to deal with it in much harsher ways before. To do max damage you are supposed to predict boss movements, this much has always been the case for melees.