Wonder if anyone here feels this way?

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

oh i know. i just wanted to use the complete extreme to point out the fallacy of the person i had quoted.

my point is i am pretty much a hardcore player myself, but i do have a job. what i want is enough stuff and it to not be locked to where if i have 2 days off in a row i can sit and actually play the game i am paying to play. i don't want to be locked out of content completely because i've already done it once for the week. what this game needs is a combination of content where there is some content the hardcores can run over and over, some open world content that everyone can challenge, and some casual type content that is challenging and they get rewards for that type as well.

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I actually consider stuff like Coil to be casual approach to end-game. Cos every time you do it you're somewhat progressing; be it getting drops, gaining experience of the fight, tomes that you could accumulate to trade for gear, etc. What I consider hardcore end-gaming is camping HNMs for gear, and are designed for people who have the time to commit to it. Each time you camp you might not progress at all. My definition of hardcore is just people who have more time and/or are more devoted to the game. So in turn they could get some more tedious stuff to work on and for show.

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Originally Posted by Calyanare

Because the sandbox-lovers immediately start the wailing and gnashing of teeth as soon as they see a quest indicator over an NPC's head? I personally love quests, and I also love being able to tell which NPCs will give me one without having to talk to them and hear their life story first, but apparently some people think that a quest indicator is the most horrible thing in the world and that players should be forced to talk to each and every NPC to find them. That's just one example of why we can't have both. The list goes on: minimaps, regular maps, tutorials, etc. There's plenty of stuff a person like me considers to be essential that someone who likes immersive sandbox games considers to be anathema.

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Well, as a sandbox lover, I can tell you that personally, while I might wish for a game to have more obscurity in many places, forcing players to actually involve themselves in the world, I wouldn't demand Square remove quest markers or tutorials. I would however like to make them toggle-able/skip-able. And add other features that don't need to remove modern amenities such as horizontal progression and open world interactive quests (more than just picking up random glitter ridden items off the side of the road).

That aside, simply assuming we want all that abolished is a bit presumptuous and only caters to a straw man argument. I don't think most people here have made the claim that all people can't have their conveniences. We have to avoid generalizing each other if we want to have good strong discussions.

Did you find all my comma splices?

I emphatically agree with the article.

Part of the issue too, is that people are gunning after the success that WoW had, which with as many MMOs in the field now is impossible to attain. WoW got lucky and no one is going to reproduce that kind of success with that model. Stop chasing it.

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Originally Posted by Caraway

I emphatically agree with the article.

Part of the issue too, is that people are gunning after the success that WoW had, which with as many MMOs in the field now is impossible to attain. WoW got lucky and no one is going to reproduce that kind of success with that model. Stop chasing it.

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Problem with that is that even WoW has more to do in the world than ARR, even with all its Finders and Queues. Eorzea is just plain tiny.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

That aside, simply assuming we want all that abolished is a bit presumptuous and only caters to a straw man argument. I don't think most people here have made the claim that all people can't have their conveniences. We have to avoid generalizing each other if we want to have good strong discussions.

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Actually, I mentioned those things because they are things I have actually seen people complaining about in forums (these and also those for other games). I have seen people complaining about almost every feature that you could consider a "modern amenity" up to and including the existence of any sort of map, and even the ability to zoom out to 3rd person mode. I also don't know how you could reconcile having tons of open world content with people who pretty much demand instanced content and a dungeon finder to put them in it, since the latter is casual-friendly and the former is not (and even some "hardcore" people like myself don't particularly care for open world content anyway). Since casual players make up the majority of the playerbase of all games nowadays (and not aiming for this is practically financial suicide for a game maker), even if there were tons of open world content, hardly anybody would do it. Seen anyone doing the FATEs in any but the most efficient areas to do so while leveling?

And then there's the fact that you can actually play this game (and most MMOs) in the same way as a sandbox game if you want to, but I guess people are too lazy to go into the settings and turn off nameplates, hide HUD elements, etc? I honestly don't know if this game lets you hide quest markers or not, but if it doesn't, it should. As for the all-important NMs question (I personally don't miss camping them at all, but to each his own), they are already in the game as high-level FATEs that nobody does because they don't drop anything. Maybe they should drop something, but not uber-l33t gear (maybe something cool-looking with crappy stats, for vanity?), and it shouldn't be sellable.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

Problem with that is that even WoW has more to do in the world than ARR, even with all its Finders and Queues. Eorzea is just plain tiny.

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WoW also has like 5 expansions under its belt. You can't expect a new game to compete with that. Edited to add: I actually have no idea how many expansions WoW has to date, so if that number is right or wrong, I pulled it out of the sky so it's not my fault.

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Originally Posted by chococo

I actually consider stuff like Coil to be casual approach to end-game. Cos every time you do it you're somewhat progressing; be it getting drops, gaining experience of the fight, tomes that you could accumulate to trade for gear, etc. What I consider hardcore end-gaming is camping HNMs for gear, and are designed for people who have the time to commit to it. Each time you camp you might not progress at all. My definition of hardcore is just people who have more time and/or are more devoted to the game. So in turn they could get some more tedious stuff to work on and for show.

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I have tons of time on my hands; however, I have no interest whatsoever in camping something that may or may not spawn that has a 0.01% chance of dropping an item I want. Just because I have time to spare doesn't mean I want to waste it. That momentary, fleeting joy when you finally get the drop you wanted on the 247th try is NOT worth the months of frustration, IMO. Now, if the gear that dropped from these wasn't better than, just on par stat-wise with current top-tier gear, with a unique look, and could not be sold, I might be on board with adding this as a horizontal progression, but getting the best gear in the game should never be 100% dependent on luck and latency.

I just got seriously depressed.

I remember when you could bring as many people as you wanted to raid areas, and some monsters that weren't even rare could drop items that were just as good as boss drops if you had the patience to farm that long.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

Problem with that is that even WoW has more to do in the world than ARR, even with all its Finders and Queues. Eorzea is just plain tiny.

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Most MMOs tend to start off with relatively little content and fewer zones. That's common to all MMOs. WoW did not launch with nearly as much content as it has now. In time Eorzea will gain much more content. All actively developed MMOs accrete content like crystals growing in a supersaturated solution.
Size-wise i played an MMO that launched with more zones and six years on about half of them tended to be nearly empty because most of the content was still concentrated in the more central areas. At least in part because the players begged the devs to stop placing the mission doors in huge zones where there was little else aside from exploration badges, difficult mobs, and the occasional giant monster to fight. And that was in a game where characters could fly and travel over five times the speed of FF XIV characters.

What a great article.

What's really curious is that all the casual gamers I know only care about the quests and adventuring and exploration portion of the game. Are my friends odd or do you know a similiar attitude among your peers?

Given SE's marketing ii thought the raiding WAS the part designed for casual players but it seems at least to me that's not how it works in reality.


Now we all know that there isn't that much to do outside those raids so I just hope they expand the open world content not just for casuals but to all of us.

There's so much game space in ARR that's just sitting there completely abandoned and useless.

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Originally Posted by NyxNoughtNothing

Most MMOs tend to start off with relatively little content and fewer zones. That's common to all MMOs. WoW did not launch with nearly as much content as it has now. In time Eorzea will gain much more content. All actively developed MMOs accrete content like crystals growing in a supersaturated solution.

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I can say with confidence, as someone who played WoW for 8 years, that WoW at launch had a larger world than ARR at launch.

Comparing WoW now with ARR now? I wouldn't. It wouldn't be fair. Comparing WoW at launch, in 2004, with ARR now? That's entirely fair, and Azeroth was larger than Eorzea. Much larger. And there were many things to do out in the world in that game, too, since that was before the dawn of Random Dungeon Finder and Raid Finder.

ARR does have more actual endgame content than WoW did at launch, and arguably has more content period than WoW did at launch. But the world is still dead and tiny.

To me as a gamer, games should be about exploring and discovering new things. Not just endless list of boring missions: Do this, go there, kill that, get mad for not getting the proper loot, rise and repeat endlessly. I remember that when I played rpg some time ago, not sure what the game was, I noticed this cool area with interesting enemies and just beautiful landscape. As I ventured forth in this are suddenly this giant boss appeared to me and I got my ass handed to me as I was just a low level noob. What I remember from it though is the FUN I had, and how I was scared shitless.

I don't mind if there's these missions that you have to follow but what I find the most annoying in these kinds of games these days, that they deliberately prevent you doing that, and makes you go these forced tutorials etc. Which ruins the fun of self discovering for me.

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