[Dragoons] Should be spamming AoEs for max DPS

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiB06

I apologize ahead of time because i know that this will come off as arrogant, but I will say it nonetheless. A dps's role is to dps. A tank's role is to tank. And a healer's role is to heal

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One small problem, this only applies to Bosses.

Against trash mobs a dps's role is to dps, a tank's role is to dps (while holding hate), and a healer's role is to dps (while keeping the tank alive).

Even if you do 2x damage if it's forcing the tank to flash spam and the healer to be stuck cure bombing then it's actually slowing the party down since the tank and healer's damage combined can be way more then a single DDs.

A Pld can do 610 potency in 3 GDCs.
A Whm can do 510 - 630 potency in 3 GDCs
A Sch can do 905 potency with their first 3 GDCs
A Whm can AoE 3 targets for 1,440 potency in 6.5 secs
A Sch can AoE 3 targets for up to 2,715 potency with their first 3 GDCs

The best thing would probably just be to coordinate with the party. Some parties and situations work best with single target. Some work best with AoE. Others work best with a mix of both. Just don't be spamming your AoE when you know that people in your party are trying to sleep adds and such. Your party should be frustrated if you are doing your own thing completely against what the party is trying to do and as much as you may not like it, tanks and healers get to make the rules of the party, not the DDs, since their job is significantly harder and you shouldn't be forcing them outside of what they are comfortable with.

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Originally Posted by Cassandaria

I get where you're coming from, but your role in a party isn't just to dps, you're role is also hate control, buff and debuff and improving the performance of everyone else in your party.
[...]
Life doesn't work that way, neither do games.

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Ah, no. My role is not to babysit bads. I do that sometimes as a pro bono service, but uh, no. Luckily I'm not horribad and I know how to hit my parry buff, bloodbath, and second wind, as well as LOS half the mobs in AK. I've done a few runs with tanks that had AF1 and a 45 green weapon. I tank half the dungeon? No problem. I just make sure I'm tanking the correct half with the correct cooldowns.

Ps. lol@ game=life.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

One small problem, this only applies to Bosses.

Against trash mobs a dps's role is to dps, a tank's role is to dps (while holding hate), and a healer's role is to dps (while keeping the tank alive).

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Do you think the healer is dropping Holy if the tank can't hold AOE threat against a DRG using a basic AOE rotation? Incoherent much?

Ps. a tank's role isn't to DPS. Lmfao. A tank can either do X damage, or X*4 threat. If the DPS is pulling X*4 damage, then maybe, just maybe, X*4 > X+X?

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Originally Posted by Supersun

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A Pld can do 610 potency in 3 GDCs.
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This is the thing that people dont seem to understand. potency is a percentage and/or relative number. What this means is that it is completely possible for a tank to use a skill with 10,000 potency, and yet a dragoon using a skill with 100 potency can still do more damage. that is because potency is simply a number to indicate how much damage a skill does relative to another skill, not another player. Furthermore, it is completely possible that if a dragoon is using a skill that has double the potency of a skill used by a paladin, it is completely possible that the dragoon is actually doing three times the damage, because that is how the raw numbers work

That being said, a tank and healer who sacrifice some dps for the sake of a dragoon doing double the dps...well, admittedly, i havent run the numbers so i cant say definitively, but based on my past experiences running dungeons, this is a smart trade of. and like someone pointed out, speed runs are done with AOEs so that just proves that im right.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Do you think the healer is dropping Holy if the tank can't hold AOE threat against a DRG using a basic AOE rotation? Incoherent much?

Ps. a tank's role isn't to DPS. Lmfao. A tank can either do X damage, or X*4 threat. If the DPS is pulling X*4 damage, then maybe, just maybe, X*4 > X+X?

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...might want to read those statements in context since you apparently completely missed the point I was making.

(that or I just failed to adequately communicate it, but I'm assuming that 99% of the people were able to understand that I was saying that party kill speed > personal DPS)

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiB06

This is the thing that people dont seem to understand. potency is a percentage and/or relative number. What this means is that it is completely possible for a tank to use a skill with 10,000 potency, and yet a dragoon using a skill with 100 potency can still do more damage. that is because potency is simply a number to indicate how much damage a skill does relative to another skill, not another player. Furthermore, it is completely possible that if a dragoon is using a skill that has double the potency of a skill used by a paladin, it is completely possible that the dragoon is actually doing three times the damage, because that is how the raw numbers work

That being said, a tank and healer who sacrifice some dps for the sake of a dragoon doing double the dps...well, admittedly, i havent run the numbers so i cant say definitively, but based on my past experiences running dungeons, this is a smart trade of. and like someone pointed out, speed runs are done with AOEs so that just proves that im right.

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Well aware that potency isn't a 1=1 across players, but at the same time it's not as far off as you are making it to be.

It's not like players use different damage formulas. Weapon damage across jobs is mostly the same. Most players (non-mage) have around the same Str stat (with job traits and stat allocation being the only real big differences). That really just leaves secondary stats which for the most part add a very small amount over all (relatively speaking) and whatever comes specific to your class and job(such as Flanking Thrusts +10% damage bonus).

Yes, raw numbers can skew things a bit with damage bonuses, but it's actually not in your favor if you are talking about Healer + Tank vs DD.

Once again, it's all situational, but for example if you have a Sch healer they need ~7.5 seconds uninterrupted to do the vast majority of their AoE damage. If you take hate because of your AoE spam and are getting your rear kicked badly enough that the Sch can't get 7.5 secs to get his DoTs up and Bane them then you are losing out on a MASSIVE amount of damage, more then your AoE spam is adding (especially since all you would need to do to greatly improve your party's killspeed in this scenario is just wait 10 or so seconds before AoE spamming so the Sch can DoT and Bane everything first).

Like I said before, just coordinate with your party. If you are AoE spamming every time all the time there are situations where you are likely making the party more inefficient.

drg talks about aoe? if you are really speaking of DPS for the best damage to a group of mobs. As a DD in heart, if I were you, I would level a blm. that's the best way to contribute... at least in a long term goal.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

but it's actually not in your favor if you are talking about Healer + Tank vs DD.

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You make an interesting point, unfortunately I have the numbers to disprove it.

Imagine:
my drag has a DPS of 100.
random tank has a DPS of 99.
random healer has a DPS of 99.
~Total of all three added is 298 DPS.

In this scenario, as a drg I am doing more damage than the tank and healer individually. But like you said, If you take the damage done by both healer and tank, they will combine deal more dps than the dragoon. But my thread is about hitting 3 targets and thus effectively doubling my DPS. But because their individual base damage for both is less that mine, my damage multiplied by two will ALWAYSbe greater than their DPS combines.

And lets be realistic and throw in a second ( or maybe third and fourth) DPS, because that is how it is in dungeons. If that other dps is also casting AoEs, then the gap of damage between the DPS in the party by far overtake the damage done by Tank + Healer.

And lastly, let me point out that it is completely unrealistic that because DPS start using AoEs, the tank and healer will have to absolutely stop dealing damage. A paladin for example might have to use flash more frequently, but that doesnt mean he has to use that skill exclusively. he might not be able to do his 3-part combo attack, but he can still do the 1-2 part and do some damage. This also applies to healers. Less dps, but still some dps nonetheless.

Overall --> two DPS at 200% damage, + a tank and healer at 50% damage is greater than all four DPSing at 100%.

come on man im stating facts not opinions. just give in and tell me im right :)

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Originally Posted by Umero

drg talks about aoe? if you are really speaking of DPS for the best damage to a group of mobs. As a DD in heart, if I were you, I would level a blm. that's the best way to contribute... at least in a long term goal.

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first, even though i recognize that a mage's AoE might be better than a DRG's AoE, that doesnt mean that a dragoon shouldnt use his aoe. this thread is about having a DRG maximize HIS OWN dps, in the right scenario. the existence of mages is irrelevant to the optimization of a DRG.

That being said, I would like to think that mages are able to beat DRGs when it comes to AoEs. But dragoons beat mages in single target combat like bosses. even tho i dont know that for a fact, i would be seriously pissed if that wasnt the case cause it would make mages the clear obvious choice specially considering that they dont have to dodge enemy aoes like DRGs do.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiB06

You make an interesting point, unfortunately I have the numbers to disprove it.

Imagine:
my drag has a DPS of 100.
random tank has a DPS of 99.
random healer has a DPS of 99.
~Total of all three added is 298 DPS.

In this scenario, as a drg I am doing more damage than the tank and healer individually. But like you said, If you take the damage done by both healer and tank, they will combine deal more dps than the dragoon. But my thread is about hitting 3 targets and thus effectively doubling my DPS. But because their individual base damage for both is less that mine, my damage multiplied by two will ALWAYSbe greater than their DPS combines.

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my drag has a DPS of 100.
random tank has a DPS of 99.
random healer has a DPS of 99.
~Total of all three added is 298 DPS.

is greater than

my drag has a DPS of 200 (100x2).
random tank has a DPS of 0 (99x0).
random healer has a DPS of 0 (99X0).
~Total of all three added is 200 DPS.

x2 != +200%

You are stating facts to support your opinion trying to force me to say you are right when I've never said that you are necessarily wrong. Only situationally wrong.

Reality check. You don't double your dps vs even geared tanks. In the case that you do there will simply be too many mobs for the tank/healer to handle. Knowing when to AoE and when to single target is what makes you good. Tanking half the instance cause you outgear the tank is just plain stupid. You frusterate the tank and prevent them from learning.

As stated this is a team game. Sure no one is here to babysit bads but having a holier-than-thou attitude about it does not make for fun group play. Work with your team, throttle dps when needed, aoe when viable. Everyone has a role but no role can solo a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

...might want to read those statements in context since you apparently completely missed the point I was making.

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You might want to understand the logic of what you said and what I said.

I'll re-summarize to make it easy:

- If a DRG switching to AOE is a problem, thus meeting the condition for your argument to exist in any capacity, then
- The components of your argument (healer AOE DPS) are completely invalid for group stability

Hence your argument is incoherent. As I stated, the healer is not dropping Holy if the tank's threat sucks to the point that a DRG AOE rotation will cause the tank/healer to all of a sudden have to play defensively.