PLD has both, you just can't have them both occur at the same time. I believe (?) WAR has a higher parry rate, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon
XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison
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10-04-2013, 01:01 AMSpookyGhost
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10-04-2013, 01:07 AMMaelwysI'd assume that along with the "WAR gets more Str, Str increases mitigation from Parry" argument, the fact that you can't trigger both Block and Parry on the same hit might come into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
If memory serves, when your character gets hit, the check goes in order of: Dodge, then Block, then Parry.
If both a WAR and a PLD have an identical Parry stat, then we can expect that the PLD will actually Parry attacks very slightly less often than the WAR... because some of the hits the PLD receives will trigger a Block before the Parry has a chance to occur. The WAR can never block, so they get the "full" effect of all possible parries.
Miniscule and Ignorable? Perhaps. But there is a slight difference...
[Edit: Silly Daily Posting Limits...]
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not agreeing with the OP's take that Parry is more valuable than Block. I'm just saying that if the OP is trying to lay out a complete breakdown of what mitigation PLD has available compared to what mitigation WAR has available, then nobody can make the claim that "they both have identical parry stats". Either we take "Parry" and "Block" to mean different things - so a PLD has slightly less chance to Parry but a large chance to Block, or we take them to mean the same thing - so a PLD has a *much* higher chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
In a sense it really doesn't matter what we call it because it's going to result in the same level of mitigation for the PLD, but it does make the semantics of directly comparing what the two classes bring to the table a little trickier.
We can certainly take both Block and Parry as being the same thing if we boil it down to "amount of incoming damage mitigated passively". And I'm aware that the amount of damage mitigated by both scales with STR, but IIRC there are different chances to cause a shield block depending on the Shield that is equipped, whereas the chance to parry an attack with a weapon will remain the same regardless of the Shield type. That suggests to me that if we were to combine Block and Parry and take them as exactly the same thing for a PLD, we'd still need to separate it out again later on, because only part of our calculations will depend on what portion of that mitigation is influenced by the equipped Shield's Block Value.
I agree that to some extent it is a semantic point, and certainly that in practical terms PLD's (Block + Parry) will always beat WAR's (Parry)
Please don't think of my comments above as arguing with you. Instead picture me sitting in the audience with a bucket of popcorn, throwing out the odd heckle just to keep things interesting... :)
(I usually always end up rooting for the underdog, but I just cant see any way possible for WAR to win this one...) -
10-04-2013, 01:07 AMDerzaHuh? How did you get this data? When you parry you take 22-25% less damage, and you can't parry magic attacks. to get a 15% overall damage reduction you would have to parry 60% of the time - and that is if the mob did no magic damage at all. If they are using magic attacks (you can't parry these) your parry chance would need to be well over 60% to come out with a 15% overall damage reduction... Man please think before you post this trash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhun
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10-04-2013, 01:07 AMTerabyt3Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
Even then your self heals are a fixed value. And your PRIME source of mitigation.
PLD's will always vary being % based rather than fixed.
The only problem with not having the HP pool if you increase the risk of dying before getting the chance to self heal. That's why wars have the bigger hp pool. We gotta take the hit BEFORE we mitigate it. Whereas PLD's mitigate it as it hits. -
10-04-2013, 01:08 AMKitruBerserk does nothing to STR. It affects attack power. Attack power does nothing to parry. Are you just *that* stupid? WAR has a whole *9* higher STR. If you honestly think there's a stat disparity between the two large enough to make anything *resembling* a difference, you're an idiot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhun
WAR and PLD use the same gear. Axes might have more than swords, but no PLD uses a sword alone: they have shields will add up to the exact stat disparity between a 2h and 1h weapon.Quote:
Parry procs on War more because our gear has more parry+ of it
Except that Parry and Block are the exact same thing. Block is just what a Parry becomes when you're using a Shield. When you compare Block to Parry, PLD has the higher chance. If you're just comparing the word "Parry" to the word "Parry", it's only because you're an idiot that doesn't know anything about calculating mitigation.Quote:
AND when your chance to block activates the chance to parry is 0.
Care to post anything to support this? Some raw data perhaps because you've demonstrated time and time again that you lack the basic math skills of the average elementary school student. Judging by your past performances, that dodge chance you're referring to is likely closer to 3%.Quote:
We also dodge more. My math could be off on the total of 15% total mitigation but that's what it seems to work out to. Even if it's 6.25 with optimum stats that's a constant 6.25% damage reduction that scales with damage always.
Except that a PLD can do Shield Bash more often for the same exact duration. And there's nothing out there that actually matters to tank that is stun susceptible in anything *approaching* the way you describe. If you want to tank trash, fine, but I care about tanking *bosses*.Quote:
Another point is that if the mob doesn't resist it, our stun stops 5 seconds of total DPS every 30 seconds, so if a mob is doing 1000 DPS, that's 5000 damage reduced over 30 seconds which works out to 166HP/sec incoming damage completely negated.
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10-04-2013, 01:14 AMKitruExcept that you're making the assumption that Parry is more valuable than Block. Since Block is more valuable than Parry (you mitigate 1-2% more with identical stats; yes, I've tested this out on my character using *the exact same gear), the argument that WAR Parries more often because they don't have Block decreasing their chance to Parry (which, once again, Block is just what a Parry with a Shield is called so that's not even true) doesn't equate to an advantage of any kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
At best, it's a semantic point that completely misses the actual intent of what's being discussed. At worst, it's demonstrative of a complete and utter inability to actually understand what's going on. -
10-04-2013, 01:15 AMDerza
Ah ha! i see why Lhun still thinks warriors are good enough... Hes still in full AF gear and all other items are whites/green weapon. Hes not even close to HM titan let a lone Coil. Hes still blindly assuming the dev team did a perfect job. While pulling random numbers out of his a$$ to show balances when faced with math that proves otherwise.
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10-04-2013, 01:15 AMHiirNoivlQuote:
Originally Posted by Terabyt3
I increase my STR and VIT in sync, not separately. So as my HP pool goes up so does my mitigation. There's no downside to this. -
10-04-2013, 01:19 AMTerabyt3except that damage output and parry mitigation are controlled by STR "walls". Unless your STR is a certain ammount you will not do more dmg.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
Example you are at 200 STR. The next wall is 220.
If you put 19 points in str nothing will happen.
Put 1 more in and you reach that break point. your %parry increases as does your dmg output.
Even with what you are saying your MAIN way of mitigationg damage is self heals. Which is static and does not vary. -
10-04-2013, 01:20 AMTanayaYes, you can parry nearly everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhun
Except Magic.