Tank dps harrasment

I think I get this as a healer who's been around since the beginning. People expect healers to DPS and heal simultaneously. Juggling "stances" has become easier to do with HW and SB, but in ARR it was a struggle to juggle. However, I think it's good to keep improving playstyle and adapt per trial/dungeon/etc. as necessary. I found that playing various classes has moulded my own playstyle. When I tank (as DRK), I keep my DPS and my tank stance on until the boss. Then I drop my tank stance for the boss unless I feel I'm too squishy. I also switch with my AST. If I have a squishy tank, I use Noc/barrier sect during the trash part of a dungeon, then switch to Diurnal for trials. I think adapting is the most important aspect of gaming, but that may just be my own opinion/playstyle.

While I don't think it's right for them kicking you for doing your job, it doesn't hurt to at least try it out?

It worries me how many players here spread the wrong info to new or current players. No wonder many are misslead when people give them the wrong idea. Nobody is expecting full power play all the time, nobody expect world first player style in dungeons either, we expect people to give a damn. How many people are kicked because they aren't doing good enough in duties? How many tanks actually moves bosses wrong and actually kills people? V1s is a great example where tanks move to the boss from 1 corner to another when there is no need, especially when it moves to the middle after it disappears. How many healers does medica 2 when there is no aoe? How many tanks spam aggro combo when they are already ahead. There are sadly too many players in this thread who spread this idea of how to tank etc. Honestly if a tank dies because of auto attack, the healers is bad in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

How about not trial by fire and instead actively gauge your healer's capabilities when in a pug. Caution coupled with critical thinking is the best option to not waste everyone's time and kill the mood.

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How long would you say it takes to gauge a parties capabilities? If you say the first pull then we're right back to the argument of we shouldn't judge people by a single solitary example (a la logs). If you go by the notion of up to the first boss, then over a third of the dungeon is over and who honestly cares at that point.

I'm an optimist. I very firmly believe that if you challenge people they will rise to the occasion. Worst case is that we fail. Failing is not a bad thing. It teaches us things and prompts reflection, which is integral to growth.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

You brush it off with a "Haha, whoops" and I'm sitting here rolling my eyes as we have to re-commence, it's annoying. I would not give you crap about it but I'm still bothered none-the-less.

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Me personally? No I'd brush it off with something like: "I apologize for wiping us, I thought we could have handled that."

As I said before, I'd rather a new tank do this and fail, then sit in tank stance, tanking one mob at a time only using 1 combo because they're so scared of losing aggro. Sure he'll succeed (because participation trophy content), but I'LL be sitting there ROLLING my eyes and be annoyed at the 32 minute long dungeon run that should have been half that.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

It's great that some healers showed appreciation for this, and I'm sure others you have or haven't ran with were/would be pretty cross about it. But some may still be getting their bearings, and trying to build up their ability as they go. Pushing them into the fire face first is not going to sit well with everyone, even those trying to improve themselves, and it could end up doing damage beyond the run.

You think on such extreme levels, I wouldn't call you elitist, just that there's more ways to deal with a situation that running to smash your face into a wall and dealing with the consequences afterwards.

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It's possible for sure and I won't pretend to speculate either way. I merely gave an anecdotal experience to paint a picture.

I'll give another IRL example, that is a little outside the relevance, but the lesson fits. I was roughly 16 years old at a 3 week tennis camp. I was given a choice based on my skill level. I could be placed in the intermediate group and likely be untouchable by 90% of the teens there, or I could be put in the advanced group with the top players in the state. I was told that it won't be fun, and I'll likely be dead last and lose every match/game (hint: I did).

In this situation (and I didn't really understand it that well then) I had to choose between my participation trophy or growth. Just like you can choose to get your trophy by completing the DF run at your slow careful pace, or you can grow as a person as push yourself and see just how far you truly can go.

I ended up choosing growth because as a competitive person winning something that is free, isn't winning. It needs to be earned. You'd be surprised just how many of these pugs surprise themselves.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I'm not quite as savvy in this forum as some of you are to create multiple quotes, so for everyone who has given me suggestions, thank you - I will begin to work on those immediately. Love my DRK, but starting from the near bottom to apply the knowledge here might help me with enjoying tanking again. Let's see how it goes.

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You are welcome!

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Honestly if a tank dies because of auto attack, the healers is bad in the first place.

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I'd like to point out first off that a tank dying to an auto attack does not mean "the healers is bad" as you so eloquently put it.

As to the rest of your post.... what is your point? How does this relate to the topic or even the diversions the original topic has taken? All I can see is that comment about "world first play" in a dungeon and all I can draw from that is the assumption you think tanking in DPS stance is somehow "world first play" which is (again) wrong.

I don't know, maybe I just don't get it but this just reads like a general rant that has no real ties to the topic currently being discussed. I don't see this rampant misinformation you are raving about.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I'd like to point out first off that a tank dying to an auto attack does not mean "the healers is bad" as you so eloquently put it. t.

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If there is no buster before the lets said auto attack and there is only autoattacks for a while and tank dies from it, hes bad. This is also WITH and WITHOUT mitigation,someone shouldn't die from it. I can't really count how many times I've died from auto attacks being in grit and rampart. Point of my post was that there is WAY too many players in here who sponsor ''aggro spam combo'' ''healers just afk 5-10 seconds cast a cure and do the same thing again''. It has to do something about the topic. If you read the original he said he got kicked from being in tank stance doing HUNT, which I think is bullshit, because NEVER in my 4 years on this game I ever seen it. Nobody cares about tank stance or not in hunts, they die too fast to even be bothered. When a tank spams only aggro combo, which is also a part of the issue of many tanks thes days, hell even OT's do. How many times I have a lot of aggro and I go in dps stance as MT until the warrior spams butchers block, yet storms path gives you 20 beast gauge to even give you more fell cleaves a rotation, but they think that 10-20 extra potency > more fell cleaves? And yes it might be a small rant, but honestly I said it because many here really say it's fine to just spam aggro combo and some people can slack so the sake of others have to work even more for it. I dont care if you are a tank healer or a dps, you don't slack so everyone else can do your part of the job.

Edit: If it is true they got kicked for being in tank stance for the hunt, then that person who did, is a someone I don't support because that's really retarded.

In my experience most people get kicked for running their mouth. Not saying you did, but that's what I've always seen. Sometimes you get thrown into a group that have buddies that like to troll others, even in those cases, they kick you for running your mouth or blatantly playing bad. Maybe I've just been lucky though.

I will concede that tanks staying in tank stance for the duration of large pulls is a fair point, but you know why tanks should be expected to at least TRY to DPS at least for bosses? Because it's incredibly easy. There's simply no excuse. In your average roulette/24-man/8-man, there is no such thing as a boss that will execute you instantly for not having tank stance up. Neither will your healer experience a sudden, crushing, overwhelming burden of healing 20% more incoming damage. Even then, defensive cooldowns exist for the purpose of mitigating more than enough damage. So, why not press the button that takes off the damage penalty? Is it laziness or ignorance? In either case, both are undesirable, and by extension, make the tank undesirable.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Is it laziness or ignorance? In either case, both are undesirable, and by extension, make the tank undesirable.

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And this right here is the problem. The idea that it can only be one of those two things.

I'm trying to phrase this carefully. I think people should contribute what they can. I am not advocating that it's fine for a tank to just sit in tank stance and healer just heal, people do the bare minimum if they can do more. There's the crux, if they can do more. People should try and push themselves, I will fully agree as well. But what if, honestly, that is the best they can do? What if they can only play an hour a day, and haven't ground roulettes to tears? What if they struggle to keep up, not through laziness, but rather circumstance? Should we say, "Yeah, you kept aggro the whole way, but if you can't handle dropping into a DPS stance and adding some damage, you should GTFO!"? Or, "Yeah, nobody died, but if you can't handle adding a bit of DPS go find another game!"? Maybe, "I don't care if you're in your 60's and your fingers are arthritic, your DPS is sh!t! Give up and take up needlepoint, grandma!"? I know a number of people who struggle, but they enjoy the game because they can still clear casual content. I'm helping them where I can. I nudge, maybe convince a friend to let me increase the size of a pull. But these are people trying their hardest, they're just not as good at the game as some others. Are you saying these people, who enjoy FF XIV, and can clear casual content without overstressing the party, should give up and cancel their subs, just so you can shave a few minutes off your dungeon run? If you said no, then you have to realize one thing...you'll never know.

In a PUG run, if you spot a tank locked in tank stance, or healer not DPSing, you have absolutely no idea if they are being lazy, or if this is indeed the best they can do. The part of this thread that makes me scream are lines like "Anyone can tank a boss in DPS stance!" or "Anyone can weave DPS in with healing!", normally followed by..."...and if they don't, they're being lazy!" I can tell you outright, no. Anyone is one hell of a generalization. Most people, maybe. But the mindset that every single FF XIV player out there can reach that level of expertise if they just have enough time and practice is ludicrous. And before it's said, no. In most cases, people have tried other roles. You can't just tell a tank that stays in tank stance to find another job. In most cases, they have, and nothing was better then what they're on.

Are the lazy people out there? Of course. And it drives me crazy. I get frustrated when I see someone's phoning it in, so long as it's clear that's what they're doing. And I will say something. A tank handles things well with downtime? I'll suggest bigger pulls. Someone spamming one attack/combo, I'll suggest mixing it up. People don't get a free pass for just doing the minimum. But if what they are doing is legitimately their best, and it is enough to hold all the aggro or keep everyone healed and they still manage the clear, should they be harassed? Told to "get gud!"? Kicked? And if not, tell me...how do you know when someone is doing their best and just struggling, or simply doing as little as possible on autopilot?

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Originally Posted by Xerek

"Anyone can tank a boss in DPS stance!" or "Anyone can weave DPS in with healing!", normally followed by..."...and if they don't, they're being lazy!

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Shinryu is an example: Healers I've met who don't dps doesn't heal tank fast enough or the group, yet they didn't cast anything else but we tanks die. The irony they don't dps. Tanks who doesn't go in dps stance while tanking doesn't bother me much, but what bothers me is they spam aggro when it's truely not needed. Yes everyone CAN tank without tank stance and healers can dps. It doesnt matter if its 800 to 1k or even 500, they tried and thats okay. Once they get more used to the fight, they probably squeeze in more. Why is that for example the WHM I had in shinryu earlier did 1.6k dps and SCH did 118 yet the whm healed MORE than the SCH? Explain.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

In a PUG run, if you spot a tank locked in tank stance, or healer not DPSing, you have absolutely no idea if they are being lazy, or if this is indeed the best they can do. The part of this thread that makes me scream are lines like "Anyone can tank a boss in DPS stance!" or "Anyone can weave DPS in with healing!", normally followed by..."...and if they don't, they're being lazy!" I can tell you outright, no. Anyone is one hell of a generalization. Most people, maybe. But the mindset that every single FF XIV player out there can reach that level of expertise

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Lol "expertise." You make it sound as if this is some sort of complex task. We're not talking 1%u0025 min-maxing here, there is a difference. Here's the steps to tank without tank stance.

1. Pull the boss and whack it.
2. Press the button for tank stance.
3. Use the same abilities you would normally use.
Congratulations, you are now tanking without tank stance.

If your brain somehow can't handle pressing one more button, once in a fight, (and somehow I highly doubt that) then just find another hobby. Please stop pretending everyone's this dumb and teach basic accountability.