The Monk Temple

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

The other thread.



A couple times.

FWIW you don't need >100 hits unless you get bad luck.



That's the idea ...

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Which thread's this? I'd love to see the math that tells me that 1% more critical hit chance is not better than gaining 3 more damage on every bootshine I do

The one about the damage formula. It's probably buried by now I guess. Edit: Oh right, I remember I cross-posted it on reddit and that forum moves slow as hell. So the link would be: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Formula-Thread

Combine that with a decent model or simulation of Monk rotation / damage and it's pretty easy to evaluate the values of the stats and assign weights.

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Depending on your stats, 6 to 8 points of determination will MAYBE add ONE (1) damage to a 150 potency attack.

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You seem to have a skewed idea of how much stats are worth.

8 points of DTR will add about 1 damage to a 150p attack that has no buffs (no TW, no DK, GL stacks).

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The way itemization then works, that is the equivalent of 11 or 16 critical hit rate or skill speed,

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Not really. 11dtr is found on items in the same budget as 16 ss/crit. 8 dtr is swapped with 11 ss/crit. Roughly 7dtr to 10 ss/crit.

The 8 points of DTR is equivalent to about 10-11 crit.

10-11crit is about 0.72% chance to crit. Crits are +50% damage. 10-11crit is about 0.36% increased damage.

You already have a significant base critical chance in the range of [5%-ish base plus random gear, probably around 440 crit rate plus average IR buff resuling in ~19% chance to crit].

The 0.36% increased damage is marginally decayed by ~19%.

The result is ~.29% increased damage from the 10-11 crit.

The DTR is +1 damage / 232-ish damage on a 150p attack. So +0.4%. DTR contributes to autoattacks more than abilities. Guesstimating +0.5%. The DTR is actually more like +0.9 damage.

So +0.45%

The 8 DTR resulting in +0.45% damage is > the ~10-11 crit resulting in +0.29% damage.

That's just napkin math though.

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Originally Posted by Vandesaan

I'd love to see the math that tells me that 1% more critical hit chance is not better than gaining 3 more damage on every bootshine I do

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Hum, specific to this: 1% crit chance is less than 0.5% increase in damage.

3 more damage is significantly more than 0.5% increase in damage depending on how much you think your Bootshines hit for.

That's like ... pretty obvious.

Right, 11 SS/ACC/CRT is 8 DTR, I forgot the numbers offhand. My bad. Doesn't change my point though; DTR is heavily skewered by rounding. There's three abilities with 150 potency for Monk; Dragon Kick, Bootshine and Steel Peak. When these three gain +1 dmg from your current DTR, chances are very high than anything above and below these potencies are seeing zero gains, as well as your autoattacks. You might be lucky and get +1 dmg on something with 140 or 160 potency. That fact alone tells me this;

Critical Hit Rate will increase everything you do. With every point you gain. Always. Percentage chances to get more damage are in the scenario that you are not going to be getting that extra damage because of rounding (which gets eaten and not counted as damage done) going to be worth more because you're not going to be using that skill that gets the increase every time. Dragon Kick, Bootshine and Steel Peak do only count for 21 to 22% of the damage I've done in most of my parses, which leaves out 78 to 79% damage that is highly likely not being affected by that determination you gained, opposed to having critical hit rate there instead that is affecting 100% of your damage.

But you'd already tested this and knew this, right?

"A direct damage increase is dependent on RNG but a crit chance increase is reliable".

<insert random rounding assumption>

Ok.

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Originally Posted by Vandesaan

which leaves out 78 to 79% damage that is highly likely not being affected by that determination you gained,

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It's ok. When itemizing for DTR, the player usually gains more than 8 DTR across their full suite of gear.

As a result of this phenomenal dynamic, they tend to actually gain reliable returns. It is truly shocking.


As a sidenote, you seem to be angsty. You should settle down.

I was going to chime in, then I caught up reading and realized EasymodeX basically covered everything I wanted to say, and probably better than I would have.

Determination is the way to go on MNK. Stack it. Test it. Compare it.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Are you positive it was from the flank? ADS does a metric shitton of turning for spellcasts, and the object on screen is .5-1.0s delayed from its actual direction.

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Unlikely that it wasn't flank but this game does some crazy stuff sometimes.

Any suggestions for a fresh 50?
I was using fracture and what not, but up to 50 most fights were simple and duration wasnt a factor.
After banging out those last 2 lvls in Northern Thanalan fates, I very often was running out of TP.
Also I don't have Invigorate yet, so my low roulettes will now be aimed at my 17 lancer, so shouldnt take much longer.
B4B still worth pursuing? Same for Mercy stroke?
So far I have pitiful GC weapon, but full Darklight gear, strike and maim for rings, and the CT Body.
What kind of rotation should I start working with? I think Id like to drop fracture for the time being.

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Originally Posted by TheGlow

Any suggestions for a fresh 50?
I was using fracture and what not, but up to 50 most fights were simple and duration wasnt a factor.
After banging out those last 2 lvls in Northern Thanalan fates, I very often was running out of TP.
Also I don't have Invigorate yet, so my low roulettes will now be aimed at my 17 lancer, so shouldnt take much longer.
B4B still worth pursuing? Same for Mercy stroke?
So far I have pitiful GC weapon, but full Darklight gear, strike and maim for rings, and the CT Body.
What kind of rotation should I start working with? I think Id like to drop fracture for the time being.

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Drop Fracture. Not a worthwhile DPS increase for the risks involved. You can chose to revisit its use once you master the basics.

BfB and Mercy Stroke as well as Invigorate are all pretty much must haves. The Lancer skills particularly.

You typically want to alternate between doing Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes on the flank and then Bootshine > True Strike on the rear. As for your third skill in either combo, you'll want to prioritize Demolish if it isn't up on the target (and it isn't a trash that will die in <10s); otherwise you Snap Punch. Keep in mind Demolish is best from rear and Snap is best from flank.

If you're ever in a situation where you cannot attack the target from the flank, or simply have no reliable way of doing your usual positional attacks, just stick to using Bootshine and True Strike as they have decent base potencies. This is rare though, as usually you should be able to hit all positions.

I had already determined that Skill Speed is better than Crit as MNK a long time ago but it was too much of a pain to figure out Determination. I would like to believe the things posted here but I often find things on forums and the net to be wrong. Guess it doesn't really matter, its just 2ndary stats.

Do note that gear have a lower DET: CRIT/SSP/ACC ratio. Guess SE figured that DET is indeed more potent point for point.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

FWIW you don't need >100 hits unless you get bad luck.

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What a surprise that the person who doesn't know how probability works doesn't know how statistics work.

E: It was determined by pretty extensive testing that you can do yourself because I'm not here to spoonfeed you that the stat weights for monks (and melee classes in general) are Acc to cap > SS >= Crit >> Det >>> Acc beyond cap

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Originally Posted by KaneTW

What a surprise that the person who doesn't know how probability works doesn't know how statistics work.

E: It was determined by pretty extensive testing that you can do yourself because I'm not here to spoonfeed you that the stat weights for monks (and melee classes in general) are Acc to cap > SS >= Crit >> Det >>> Acc beyond cap

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Oh dear... another Skill Speed enthusiast.

Switch that around to STR > Acc to cap > Det > Crit >> SS, and then you'll be closer to making sense.

Must be some amazing testing if it concluded that Skill Speed, a stat that has absolutely no effect on Auto Attacks (which account for ~60% of where MNK DPS comes from) is the best to stack.


EDIT:

Brain fart with the 60%. It is actually more like 25%, which is still significant.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Oh dear... another Skill Speed enthusiast.

Switch that around to STR > Acc to cap > Det > Crit >> SS, and then you'll be closer to making sense.

Must be some amazing testing if it concluded that Skill Speed, a stat that has absolutely no effect on Auto Attacks (which account for ~60% of where MNK DPS comes from) is the best to stack.

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Oh man, 60% of your dps?

What do you do, ignore your weapon skills? That must be an amazing parse.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Oh man, 60% of your dps?

What do you do, ignore your weapon skills? That must be an amazing parse.

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and you must have never actually parsed (or at least used an accurate one with actual breakdowns)

Edit: Ok.

tenchar

lol actually scratch that - not sure why I randomly remembered 60%. Did seem off on second thought.

It is, however, a significant contributor to total DPS and remains entirely unaffected by Skill Speed. Actually looking at some old parses instead of trying to rely on my shit memory, it does account for roughly a quarter of total DPS.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

lol actually scratch that - not sure why I randomly remembered 60%. Did seem off on second thought.

It is, however, a significant contributor to total DPS and remains entirely unaffected by Skill Speed.

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30% is what our Monks get from auto attacks.

Well, 28-32% depending on weapon in use.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

30% is what our Monks get from auto attacks.

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Yup, fixed. While the 60 was ridiculous and incorrect, the overall point of my post remains in regards to Skill Speed being a shit stat, at least in comparison to Det or Crit.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Yup, fixed. While the 60 was ridiculous and incorrect, the overall point of my post remains in regards to Skill Speed being a shit stat, at least in comparison to Det or Crit.

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I think our monks are str > acc to cap > crit >>> det/ss.

My personaly opinion STR > ACC to cap > DET = CRIT > SS.

Reason being if something has more DET I will pick it but if not I will then go for Crit.

ie I would pick the Allagan Gauntlets over the Melee hands (even tho the hands have more DET) due to that skill speed stat.

Also my opinion is that ACC/CRIT gear is better then DET/SS gear. ie the Vortex Ring of Striking > Hero's Ring of Slaying

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

I think our monks are str > acc to cap > crit >>> det/ss.

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Many MNKS are, and I'll take that over Skill Speed stackers any day.

I more or less considered them both about equally desirable (from an itemization standoint, det is the clear winner point for point) but I've been leaning towards stacking more det period now, and have marked a distinct increase in my DPS as a result of it.

It isn't difficult to make sense of it anyway, when MNK already crits rather often with Internal Release and has an auto-crit skill like Bootshine.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

It isn't difficult to make sense of it anyway, when MNK already crits rather often with Internal Release and has an auto-crit skill like Bootshine.

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Edit: Was wrong~

Also I don't think you can trade crit and determination on a 1:1 basis. It's more like a ~1.4 crit rating:1 det.

Bad thing about crit is you affected by the RNG unlike DET that is always active.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Internal Release is a bonus to your critical hit rating. So any monk with stacked critical hit rating will gain much more value from Internal Release than a determination stacked monk.

Also I don't think you can trade crit and determination on a 1:1 basis. It's more like a ~1.4 crit rating:1 det.

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Actually, it was determined that the crit bonuses from Internal Release, Straight Shot and Wrath are flat % additions.

Basically, Internal Release on MNK increases your crit chance by 30% (if you have a 15% chance to crit based on your crit rate value, you will have a 45% chance to crit under the effects of Internal Release on MNK).

Source: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/ (scroll down a bit on the home page)

Therefore, no. Any gains from Internal Release, or crit rate increasing buffs from skills, are entirely independent from the Crit Rate stat.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Actually, it was determined that the crit bonuses from Internal Release, Straight Shot and Wrath are flat % additions.

Basically, Internal Release on MNK increases your crit chance by 30% (if you have a 15% chance to crit based on your crit rate value, you will have a 45% chance to crit under the effects of Internal Release on MNK).

Source: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/ (scroll down a bit on the home page)

Therefore, no. Any gains from Internal Release, or crit rate increasing buffs from skills, are entirely independent from the Crit Rate stat.

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Hmm, I'll take your word for that, but you still cannot trade DET on a 1:1 basis for crit rating.

(Asking a Japanese speaking player in my guild the tooltip does in fact say critical hit power, not rating.)

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Hmm, I'll take your word for that, but you still cannot trade DET on a 1:1 basis for crit rating.

(Asking a Japanese speaking player in my guild the tooltip does in fact say critical hit power, not rating.)

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I wasn't suggesting trading them 1 for 1. I even suggested 1 point of det is worth more than 1 point of crit when I said "det is the clear winner point for point". I'm aware crit comes in larger values.

I'm not so much "trading" as much as straight up taking gear with determination first and above any gear without it at the same ilv. I'm prioritizing det in my gear, followed by crit. Obviously, the accuracy cap and limited choices mean I have to think of it as an entire gearset, but all of that goes without saying I would think.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I'm not so much "trading" as much as straight up taking gear with determination first and above any gear without it at the same ilv. I'm prioritizing det in my gear, followed by crit. Obviously, the accuracy cap and limited choices mean I have to think of it as an entire gearset, but all of that goes without saying I would think.

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...That's how trading stats works? You're sacrificing crit and SS pieces for pieces with DET or taking pieces with DET prioritized over crit/ss.

Like these two sets:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LQ1W (crit stacked)
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LQ1X (det stacked)

There's a skill speed difference of one. You 'trade' 130 critical hit rating to gain 92 DET. That's what I mean when I say you're trading stats. If that's a worthwhile trade to you, then by all means, but I don't think you're gaining a marked increase in your damage output for those kinds of trades. In fact if you parsed both of those sets you wouldn't notice a difference literally at all.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

...That's how trading stats works? You're sacrificing crit and SS pieces for pieces with DET or taking pieces with DET prioritized over crit/ss.

Like these two sets:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LQ1W (crit stacked)
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LQ1X (det stacked)

There's a skill speed difference of one. You 'trade' 130 critical hit rating to gain 92 DET. That's what I mean when I say you're trading stats. If that's a worthwhile trade to you, then by all means, but I don't think you're gaining a marked increase in your damage output for those kinds of trades. In fact if you parsed both of those sets you wouldn't notice a difference literally at all.

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People have already parsed and Det has a higher weight than crit by a good margin in terms of dps. 1.6 vs 2.2 I believe. EasyX would be able to say for sure. He's run the numbers.

But I think gaining more DTR us much better since it is a full always active bonus to everything we do, but CRT IS only chance. Now correct me if I'm wrong but with 500 crit and IR buff that's what 30% CRT chance of hitting, if so that 70% chance ur hit will land no crit, whereas DRT increase is an increase to overal potency without chance it's there. The statement "well yeah technically both CRT vs DRT build about evens out in parse" is kinda false since it'll only even out if that CRT actually lands. To me yes CRT is very important but this game still have no gear that will push for mOre CRT, heck may b in the coming expansion will more passive traits to increase CRT bonus from IR, but unroll then, DRT wins at this moment. Same can also be said for SS. Since TwS buff increase in duration, there's really no need for more SS.

God my grammar sucks

i prefer a setup like that.you have enought accuracy for mostly anything (if you want to push it a little more to get 0 miss on T5,use deviled eggs)

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LQ6V

with that setup you have a good mixte between DET and CRIT and accuracy is way enought.you can change hero choker for allagan maiming(if you want more ACU) and vortex ring for allagan maiming ring (if you want more DET)

that the BIS im aiming for.

This is my personal opinion on the BiS pre T5.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LQ74

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Originally Posted by YarozeX

This is my personal opinion on the BiS pre T5.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LQ74

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Melee Cyclas is a shit piece and has no place in a BiS setup. The Allagan Cuirass is easily superior. Also the neck piece you picked out is bad. Either myth or maiming is better.

Basically, avoid skill speed when you have other options.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Melee Cyclas is a shit piece and has no place in a BiS setup. The Allagan Cuirass is easily superior. Also the neck piece you picked out is bad. Either myth or maiming is better.

Basically, avoid skill speed when you have other options.

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You did not read the post.

Pre-T5

I agree on the skill speed factor. But with this setup you are at 473 ACC. I see no reason to take 11 ACC and 16 CRIT over 8 DET and 16 SS.

But if you want my opinion on the Best all end all I think it would be this....

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/LMKM

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Melee Cyclas is a shit piece and has no place in a BiS setup. The Allagan Cuirass is easily superior. Also the neck piece you picked out is bad. Either myth or maiming is better.

Basically, avoid skill speed when you have other options.

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? it's a pre turn 5 bis, they wouldn't have access to the allagan chest

Momentarily forgot allagan chest is t5.

Funny enough I've actually been playing around with the Fuma body and comparing it to the melee cyclas. Although not much, I did in fact mark a dps increase. Provided you make up for the accuracy elsewhere. Plenty of accuracy options without skill speed after all.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Momentarily forgot allagan chest is t5.

Funny enough I've actually been playing around with the Fuma body and comparing it to the melee cyclas. Although not much, I did in fact mark a dps increase. Provided you make up for the accuracy elsewhere. Plenty of accuracy options without skill speed after all.

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This has been one thing I have been wondering myself. I have yet to buy the Myth body. (I main PLD so just now getting around to MNK)

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Originally Posted by YarozeX

This has been one thing I have been wondering myself. I have yet to buy the Myth body. (I main PLD so just now getting around to MNK)

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Math says Myth is body is better.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Math says Myth is body is better.

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Actually somebody worked out the math using the commonly accepted weights and concluded that the Fuma Body came out slightly on top.

That's simply comparing piece for piece though. In the switch from Melee > Fuma, you lose 4 STR and 24 lolSkillSpeed, but gain 21 Det and 21 Crit.

The hypothesis: the considerable gain in Det and Crit slightly outweigh the loss of 4 STR and the Skill Speed.

I got the Fuma body earlier this week and began testing. My testing involved parsing multiple times on a striking dummy with a standard setup with the Melee Cyclas, and then parsing multiple times with the Fuma Body instead, whilst making up for the lost accuracy in other slots where I can stack something besides Skill Speed with it.

The conclusion: an easily distinguished increase in both min/max and avg damage values for all skills and auto attacks, as well as a slight increase in avg DPS.

So, until I get the Allagan Cuirass of Striking, I am now using the Fuma Body for all content other than Twintania (due to the higher accuracy cap).

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Temple/page123
Commonly accepted stat weights do not support the Fuma overall.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...29#post1756129
In this thread, I also compared the best sets (pre-T5) of either in each case and plugged it into Valk's calculator.
Even with a lower accuracy (which valk's calculator doesn't take into account), the Fuma set lost.
If you've got the Allagan Baghnakhs, you'd have to sub in even more accuracy obviously.

I haven't tested it myself, but the general math doesn't put the Fuma over the Melee.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Temple/page123
Commonly accepted stat weights do not support the Fuma overall.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...29#post1756129
In this thread, I also compared the best sets (pre-T5) of either in each case and plugged it into Valk's calculator.
Even with a lower accuracy (which valk's calculator doesn't take into account), the Fuma set lost.
If you've got the Allagan Baghnakhs, you'd have to sub in even more accuracy obviously.

I haven't tested it myself, but the general math doesn't put the Fuma over the Melee.

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Interesting.

That being said, ultimately I tested it myself to my own satisfaction and didn't see a decrease of any kind. In fact I saw a slight increase.

I would at the very least say it's enough to discourage any budding MNKs from buying the Melee Cyclas at all if they haven't yet, and instead getting the Fuma Body and saving themselves the ~800 myth.