Zepla: Endwalker is the Worst FFXIV Expansion I have played

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

The “why does endwalker have a lackluster story” has like 850 pages. Much more work to be done

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Allow me to help with that.

Although I am happy that some content creators are finally coming to terms with the reality of the situation, the time when concerns for Endwalker could have been acted upon has come and gone given the slow rate at which the game responds to issues.

Instead of mocking my threads in their react videos and coming up with excuses to deny the reality that the signs something was wrong have been there for ages, they shouldn't have been so prideful and so overeager to defend the game when things went wrong.

Too little too late. I diverted some Crysta from my FFXI subscription to pay for a sub so I could fill out that survey they did earlier and entertained myself making some Valisthea inspired glams for...about a day. Then there was nothing else for me to do because I already have the moogle rewards since I played the game consistently back when those rewards first released.

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Originally Posted by Raraka

My biggest issue with the relic is that is causality and not poetics

If it was poetics I could do content I really like... Bozja... for the relics. Instead the best way to do relics is with a level 90 class doing dailies and spamming aetherfront

Thats why I didn't bother even unlocking Manderville, so much for a "relic you can finish doing anything!" EXCEPT the content I really like or leveling other jobs

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Good news. As soon as Dawntrail comes out, it will be a poetics based relic. The current currency won't exist anymore.

i lol'ed at this comment ^

I couldn't think of anything to do so I went back to Eureka to farm the relics I didn't already have.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

The “why does endwalker have a lackluster story” has like 850 pages. Much more work to be done

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idk....that thread is 1.5 years-ish old. This one is only 2 weeks. Just feels weird.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Good news. As soon as Dawntrail comes out, it will be a poetics based relic. The current currency won't exist anymore.

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And the relic will become irrelevant too

It’s funny that the relics will become an even bigger joke when DT comes out

6000 poetics for a completed relic, that’s like 2 hours in eureka

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Originally Posted by EZGIL

edit: grats on 150, go for 200!

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

The “why does endwalker have a lackluster story” has like 850 pages. Much more work to be done

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Somethingsomething Thosearerookienumbers somethingsomething Complete.

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Originally Posted by Raraka

And the relic will become irrelevant too

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The relics aren't relevant now. Why would later make a difference?

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Originally Posted by Raraka

My biggest issue with the relic is that is causality and not poetics

If it was poetics I could do content I really like... Bozja... for the relics. Instead the best way to do relics is with a level 90 class doing dailies and spamming aetherfront

Thats why I didn't bother even unlocking Manderville, so much for a "relic you can finish doing anything!" EXCEPT the content I really like or leveling other jobs

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If they don’t force you to use causality, how else they’re going to mask the fact there are less EW-things to do or… lmao, power the roulette?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s funny that the relics will become an even bigger joke when DT comes out

6000 poetics for a completed relic, that’s like 2 hours in eureka

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Is that confirmed, or you just being Funny / Edgy?

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Is that confirmed, or you just being Funny / Edgy?

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It's how all the other relics have worked in the past. Every step that relies on current tomestones becomes poetics once that expansion is no longer current. The exact numbers might be off but the manderville relics will become poetic dumps eventually.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Is that confirmed, or you just being Funny / Edgy?

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It sounds like a joke, sure, but it's true. Which is kind of sad, really.

Hell yeah guys you did it! 150 pages!

150 more lets goooo!

You know I don't really want to say I told you so but to be fair, I told you so. Me and others have been sounding the alarm bells that something was off this whole expansion so I think I'll link some of my previous threads here so people can have a read through the first few posts or so. Crazy what happens when you don't listen to your playerbase.


State of the Game prior to Liveletter

Live Letter Hopes, Expectations, and Concerns

Hildibrand for relic? Really?

4.35 vs 6.35

Review of 6.3 Story Content

Relic News - 6.45

I want to play *This* game

That Which He Does Not Play

The Lessons Not Learned.

Why this Live Letter Matters

How to Restore Confidence in FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Xirean

They do this every time people make that suggestion. Even after you explain why you said it, they don't care. It's likely something about the forums that will sadly never change.

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Not trying to be a jerk, but why keep making that suggestion if it always ends up with the same (negative) replies?

For the most part, people on this forum aren't toddlers and they don't need explicit permission from a stranger to play other games, nor the affirmation that it is alright to do so. Even at face value it just comes off as slightly patronizing.

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Originally Posted by Raasu

Not trying to be a jerk, but why keep making that suggestion if it always ends up with the same (negative) replies?

For the most part, people on this forum aren't toddlers and they don't need explicit permission from a stranger to play other games, nor the affirmation that it is alright to do so. Even at face value it just comes off as slightly patronizing.

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Why keep throwing the same criticisms at the game if they never get implimented?
Not trying to @ you or anything, but the same logic can be used other ways, and it just amounts to...why bother?
And thats not an attitude anybody should have. And I sure as heck dont advocate for it.

Patronizing? Well thats not my intent or goal. I know emotion and intent is hard to read through a screen.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Why keep throwing the same criticisms at the game if they never get implimented?

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This is a weird one because we have seen complaints that have occurred over years get changed, the easiest example being SE finally changing Living Dead after like 6 years of resisting. If the devs changed one thing people had been complaining about then whats to say they won't change other things even after resisting for years? I think that is the biggest reason to continuing to provide feedback as the devs may not want to change or feel it needs to be changed now but who knows where we will be in the future.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Why keep throwing the same criticisms at the game if they never get implimented?
Not trying to @ you or anything, but the same logic can be used other ways, and it just amounts to...why bother?
And thats not an attitude anybody should have. And I sure as heck dont advocate for it.

Patronizing? Well thats not my intent or goal. I know emotion and intent is hard to read through a screen.

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Because as far as I know the purpose of a forum usually is to share ideas and thoughts or vent their feelings.

A repeated 'You can play something else' is neither of those but instead feels like it's cutting off discourse while adding oil to the fire at the same time.

For the record, judging from your other posts I fully believe that the comments you make are in good faith. I'm just sharing how it comes across from my point of view.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Why keep throwing the same criticisms at the game if they never get implimented?
Not trying to @ you or anything, but the same logic can be used other ways, and it just amounts to...why bother?
And thats not an attitude anybody should have. And I sure as heck dont advocate for it.

Patronizing? Well thats not my intent or goal. I know emotion and intent is hard to read through a screen.

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Oh, it's plain to see you post in good faith.

It's just for the most part, it has unfortunately been used en masse to dismiss valid player feedback, and quite frankly a large number of us get a nerve tick even reading it because of it lol

I still shout into the void in hopes they will actually implement these changes even if it feels hopeless, which is kind of sad. They have shown in the past they are capable of listening to player feedback (even if it requires content creators to actually get the point across due to marketing). So, running on the fumes of pure hopium, because I know they can absolutely do better than what they did with the patches in Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Oh, it's plain to see you post in good faith.

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I disagree. From what little I can see quoted by you and others this is just the same song and dance "I'm just joking/I'm """genuinely""" curious/poking fun/don't take me seriously" while people are trying to have a discussion about how this game seems to only be going from flop to flop and in the face of our concerns we kept being met with behavior akin to this:

https://i.imgur.com/J2AtpzT.png

It's unproductive and anyone whose been around long enough can see through these kind of derailment tactics employed by not just that individual but others who have antagonized me and others in the past and then try and play it off when they get caught in the act red-handed. I hope they're proud of their behavior because all it's led to is further stifling of the discussions needed to have in order to prevent FFXIV from reaching the state it did.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

snipped because wall

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I mean, I agree it isn't productive to just say "Just play other games", It's why I frown upon it because it defeats the entire premise of us wanting reasons to actually play the goddamn game. Not 24/7 playtime, just to log-in and do stuff. I'm just not going to sit and bicker for pages and pages because it isn't going to get us anywhere. I'd rather just move on with the discussion unless the poster truly deserves the reckoning.

if you go earlier into the thread you should see times I've ripped into others completely and utterly pointless patronizing responses. Or just look up my post history, idk. I have nothing to hide.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I disagree. From what little I can see quoted by you and others this is just the same song and dance "I'm just joking/I'm """genuinely""" curious/poking fun/don't take me seriously" while people are trying to have a discussion about how this game seems to only be going from flop to flop and in the face of our concerns we kept being met with behavior akin to this:

[...]

It's unproductive and anyone whose been around long enough can see through these kind of derailment tactics employed by not just that individual but others who have antagonized me and others in the past and then try and play it off when they get caught in the act red-handed. I hope they're proud of their behavior because all it's led to is further stifling of the discussions needed to have in order to prevent FFXIV from reaching the state it did.

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Yes, whether meant in good faith or not (I'm leaving either possibility open), the same hoarsely voiced refrain does become grating after a while, especially when it's been patiently explained why it's not an effective rejoinder.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

I mean, I agree it isn't productive to just say "Just play other games", It's why I frown upon it because it defeats the entire premise of us wanting reasons to actually play the goddamn game. Not 24/7 playtime, just to log-in and do stuff. I'm just not going to sit and bicker for pages and pages because it isn't going to get us anywhere. I'd rather just move on with the discussion unless the poster truly deserves the reckoning.

if you go earlier into the thread you should see times I've ripped into others completely and utterly pointless patronizing responses. Or just look up my post history, idk. I have nothing to hide.

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Yeah, personally I just don't bother with people after a while if it's clear it's not going to be a productive endeavour/use of time. So it's understandable.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

You know I don't really want to say I told you so but to be fair, I told you so. Me and others have been sounding the alarm bells that something was off this whole expansion so I think I'll link some of my previous threads here so people can have a read through the first few posts or so. Crazy what happens when you don't listen to your playerbase.


State of the Game prior to Liveletter

Live Letter Hopes, Expectations, and Concerns

Hildibrand for relic? Really?

4.35 vs 6.35

Review of 6.3 Story Content

Relic News - 6.45

I want to play *This* game

That Which He Does Not Play

The Lessons Not Learned.

Why this Live Letter Matters

How to Restore Confidence in FFXIV

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When you complain about everything, of course you'll be right sometimes.
Bringing all this up as a "I was right!" card makes you look so petty.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

When you complain about everything, of course you'll be right sometimes.
Bringing all this up as a "I was right!" card makes you look so petty.

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Im pretty sure the only reason for the return is to be that guy to "nyahnyah I told ya so" even though it wouldve been better for them to keep their integrity and own up to their "Im done with FFXIV for good" shtick and not get involved with furthee petty forum drama.

Although at this point, THAT doesnt matter anymore, state of the game has always been a bit ehh

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im pretty sure the only reason for the return is to be that guy to "nyahnyah I told ya so" even though it wouldve been better for them to keep their integrity and own up to their "Im done with FFXIV for good" shtick and not get involved with furthee petty forum drama.

Although at this point, THAT doesnt matter anymore, state of the game has always been a bit ehh

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I agree i don't have a problem with aveyond but there is only so many 'I'm quitting this time for good guys" threads one can make before losing any credibility when there sole reason coming back and resubbing was to say "I told you so" to everyone.

Due to the addictive nature of MMOs and gameplay loops, whenever someone would burn out on FFXI and then announce it on the AH forum, the running joke was always, "Ok, see you in two months or two years."

Everyone always comes back eventually, even if it's just to remind themselves of why they quit again.

Tale as old as MMOs!

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Due to the addictive nature of MMOs and gameplay loops, whenever someone would burn out on FFXI and then announce it on the AH forum, the running joke was always, "Ok, see you in two months or two years."

Everyone always comes back eventually, even if it's just to remind themselves of why they quit again.

Tale as old as MMOs!

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I made the same comment on one of aveyond's many returns and people kept defending him.

To quote his own words, " I told you so."

Aveyond made those who defended him look stupid.

This will be a somewhat lengthy post. Sorry in advance.

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Originally Posted by Raasu

Not trying to be a jerk, but why keep making that suggestion if it always ends up with the same (negative) replies?

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I haven't made that suggestion on these forums in months explicitly because most of the people on here take it as a direct attack/insult regardless of how it's explained.

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Originally Posted by Raasu

For the most part, people on this forum aren't toddlers and they don't need explicit permission from a stranger to play other games, nor the affirmation that it is alright to do so.

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I find this line strange. I've never been under the impression that people require permission to play the game from anybody on here. People having a sub does not require "approval" from anyone except SE.

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Originally Posted by Raasu

Even at face value it just comes off as slightly patronizing.

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The following is both a response to this line but also a lengthy explanation of why I have suggested to stop playing in the past. I’m aware that Raasu is not making all of these points. I’m bringing them up because they asked “why?”

Honestly, what comes off as patronizing to me is to have no bite behind one’s bark. I'm fully aware that people can enjoy something about a game while criticizing it however; it comes off extremely weird to not only continue to take part in something that said individual has so many complaints about, but to also financially support said product.

This is a game. I pay money and spend time here to enjoy it. The moment the negatives stack up above the positives then I'm out and I've done it before. Notably when "there wasn't anything to do". That single complaint always makes me mind go to "then stop playing" because I've been there on this and many other games. If I don't have something to do in the game, why would I stay? Boredom is the biggest negative any game can have.

Additionally, I've seen a lot of people make the argument of "it's no longer worth the sub price" which they often either explain or heavily imply that they want the sub cost to be reduced or removed, but people who make that statement will often ignore the very obvious other option there which is to just stop paying/playing.

The housing excuse is also extremely tiring at this point as well. If you bought a house, you did so knowing how the system worked (unless you were maybe part of the first housing release) and that you would lose it if you took a long enough break. To continue to maintain the sub either exclusively or even mostly just to hold onto that house comes off as little more than sunk cost fallacy. Is the housing situation an abusive monetary tactic? Yes, obviously. Do I think it should change? Of course. Should Island sanctuary have an instanced housing feature added? 100% it should. I can agree with someone on all those points and still think maintaining a sub for a house is a bad hill to die on.

I’m very firmly of the opinion that removing financial support is the biggest/loudest feedback any consumer can provide for any product. A lot of people have made comparisons to things that are happening now in XIV to things that happened in WoW that led to its decline. If that is in fact the case then wouldn’t it be a good idea to show the feedback Blizzard eventually listened to and stop subbing? As far as I’m concerned, continuing to financially support a product while having major issues with it is giving a company all the reason to not listen to you.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I made the same comment on one of aveyond's many returns and people kept defending him.

To quote his own words, " I told you so."

Aveyond made those who defended him look stupid.

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But they'll Pretend it didnt happen, or make excuses for it because its Socially popular to talk bad about FFXIV right now.
And we all know; and have confirmed, that they have no Backbone or spine to follow-through.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

This is a weird one because we have seen complaints that have occurred over years get changed, the easiest example being SE finally changing Living Dead after like 6 years of resisting. If the devs changed one thing people had been complaining about then whats to say they won't change other things even after resisting for years? I think that is the biggest reason to continuing to provide feedback as the devs may not want to change or feel it needs to be changed now but who knows where we will be in the future.

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No, hey that is good. It just took 6 years, but change DOES happen. I never once ever told people or advocated for people to ever stop posting Critisms. (But people love to act like I do)
And Well how about this....Im not part of this crowd because I personally like Healing. But for years people have criticisms about Healing in this game, and have mentioned it for years, constantly saying how the Devs "Dont Listen" So pretty much..."If they dont listen, then what is the point"
Obviously a few people think thats a weird contrast to "If the 'play other game' thing always gets negative replies, then Why Keep Saying it?'

But thats the point Im making.

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Originally Posted by Raasu

Because as far as I know the purpose of a forum usually is to share ideas and thoughts or vent their feelings.

A repeated 'You can play something else' is neither of those but instead feels like it's cutting off discourse while adding oil to the fire at the same time.

For the record, judging from your other posts I fully believe that the comments you make are in good faith. I'm just sharing how it comes across from my point of view.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Oh, it's plain to see you post in good faith.

It's just for the most part, it has unfortunately been used en masse to dismiss valid player feedback, and quite frankly a large number of us get a nerve tick even reading it because of it lol

I still shout into the void in hopes they will actually implement these changes even if it feels hopeless, which is kind of sad. They have shown in the past they are capable of listening to player feedback (even if it requires content creators to actually get the point across due to marketing). So, running on the fumes of pure hopium, because I know they can absolutely do better than what they did with the patches in Endwalker.

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Yes it is, and not once have I told people to never share. I Encourage it.
I have never had the intention to stop or stifle Discussion, and find it weird thats the thoughts people get. Of course I could probably work on my delivery, but it would also be good if this mindset isn't the 1st thing people jump to.

I wish the best for the game, and want everyone to enjoy it.
And do hope they learn from Endwalker.

https://www.eurogamer.net/final-fant...enix-president

The numbers do not lie. Yoshi P's game direction is not well received by players, and it shows in their sales.

Final Fantasy was an (J)RPG series.
Final Fantasy XVI is not an RPG.

Final Fantasy XI is an MMORPG.
Final Fantasy XIV is an RPGMMO.

I will go out on a limb and say that Baldur's Gate 3, a CRPG (computer role-playing game with Dungeon & Dragon type rules, a niche genre) will sell more games than Final Fantasy XVI by the end of this year. Turning Final Fantasy into a discount Sony third-person action game, a la God of War/Last of Us is not the best strategy.

Listen to your fans. Stop ignoring them.

Lets also be realistic and fair.....
If FFXVI wasn't a PS5 Exclusive, those sales would have been much bigger.
Just about everybody has a Gaming PC, not everybody has a PS5. This isn't about if the game was Good or anything, its just more people play on PC overall. And with the hype generated around FFXVI, I think they would have seen much bigger sales as a whole. Instead of trying to generate and inspire more people to get a PS5 via Timed Exclusivity

I'm not convinced it'd be that much higher. SE is notorious for its inability to optimise on PC, and its spec demands would already limit the number of PCs capable of running it well. While the PS5 has had supply issues, it's still 40m+ install base now, while the PC market itself has also suffered a couple of years of high component costs. Not to mention, it would cost them Sony's assistance with developing and marketing the game, meaning higher costs on that side coupled with the cost/time spent porting it to PC on day 1 release.

You can look at 7R or 15's performance for their PC ports... it may be from a couple of years after initial release, but for both the majority of their sales were PS4. Plus there isn't some deterministic rate at which a game can sell on PS5, there's other games that out-sold it on PS5, so it's down to how many consumers they could entice to buy it. Guess we'll see how its PC port performs, as will 7 Rebirth's sales as a comparison.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I'm not convinced it'd be that much higher. SE is notorious for its inability to optimise on PC, and its spec demands would already limit the number of PCs capable of running it well. While the PS5 has had supply issues, it's still 40m+ install base now, while the PC market itself has also suffered a couple of years of high component costs. Not to mention, it would cost them Sony's assistance with developing and marketing the game, meaning higher costs on that side coupled with the cost/time spent porting it to PC.

You can look at 7R or 15's performance for their PC ports... it may be from a couple of years after initial release, but for both the majority of their sales were PS4. Plus there isn't some deterministic rate at which a game can sell on PS5, there's other games that out-sold it on PS5, so it's down to how many consumers they could entice to buy it. Guess we'll see how its PC port performs, as will 7 Rebirth's sales as a comparison.

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That true? I actually didnt know FFVII:R sold more on PS4.
Or that FFXV had issues on OC. But FFXV was just...awful on release.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

https://www.eurogamer.net/final-fant...enix-president

The numbers do not lie. Yoshi P's game direction is not well received by players, and it shows in their sales.

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The numbers don't lie...but they also don't support your point here.

FF16 not being successful says literally nothing about the Final Fantasy series, FF11, FF14, Baldur's Gate 3, or God of War/Last of US. It says nothing about any of them. As many people have noted, FF16 sales are always going to be limited due to the stupid PS5 exclusivity that SE keeps doing for god knows what reason.

BG3 has a different audience. If you weren't aware, the amount of people worldwide interested in Dungeons & Dragons (what BG3 is directly based in, as were the two prior installments) is a larger audience than even FF game audience in an overall sense (not just pen and paper but also digital incarnations; one can even argue that Final Fantasy ITSELF is a derivative of D&D). So a really good D&D game will outsell pretty much any more niche genre game, and no matter what people think of them, MMOs are a somewhat more niche genre.

While I do agree that SE does a lot of stupid things (the gacha games, NFTs, etc) and takes money from its more successful properties (like FF14) to fund these random things instead of returning all that money to them to keep them growing...

...FF16's RELATIVE failure isn't related to FF14.

Also note the word in caps: Relative.

FF16 still sold plenty and made the company money. They had just projected it selling more than it did. As Zanarkand-Ronso points out:

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Lets also be realistic and fair.....
If FFXVI wasn't a PS5 Exclusive, those sales would have been much bigger.
Just about everybody has a Gaming PC, not everybody has a PS5. This isn't about if the game was Good or anything, its just more people play on PC overall. And with the hype generated around FFXVI, I think they would have seen much bigger sales as a whole. Instead of trying to generate and inspire more people to get a PS5 via Timed Exclusivity

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

That true? I actually didnt know FFVII:R sold more on PS4.

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Yes, they recently confirmed it had 7m copies shipped and sold digitally, coupled with confirmation prior to that that it had sold 3.5m units in its first three days on the PS4. There's online estimates of the steam numbers putting them at 500k-700k.

Would bringing up this discord war not -also- be derailment? Unless Zepla was also involved in said discord war, which admittedly would be funny.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Would bringing up this discord war not -also- be derailment? Unless Zepla was also involved in said discord war, which admittedly would be funny.

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Ah.. the discord/Zepla/content creator war of 2023. I remember the days of General Aveyond riding around the plains of the FFXIV forums in his large white stallion warning the people of the state of the Unio- uh I mean the state of the game