What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

https://i.imgur.com/q3pU8pi.jpg

---

Do you want a medal for taking a screenshot unrelated to what I said, ergo failing to make that point (=intention for continual sacrifices after the third stage), and posting it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

Do you want a medal for taking a screenshot unrelated to what I said, ergo failing to make that point (=intention for continual sacrifices after the third stage), and posting it?

---

To say nothing of the simple fact that the NPC being quoted was shown to be heavily biased and dismissed any questioning of Hydaelyn's incredibly shady and psychotic motives. I've never been fond of gaslighting being excused, least of all when it involves the horrific genocide of an entire species.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Better get those glasses checked then, because i know the moon dialogue. It doesn’t change the fact that we see firsthand the struggles some of the researchers faced, some of them having feelings like Hermes until they resolve their vows and understand what they’re doing is good. The main point is though it directly contradicts her whole point of them not knowing suffering. Again, she’s a mentally ill psychopath. Nothing more nothing less.

As for the “bug testing” i don’t think we should take everything the devs say as factual. They’ve been caught lying many a time. Considering they even had missing lines in the game that were featured in trailers, they clearly did some last minute changes both in shb and EW.

---

I said accept not know. ������ Pretty sure they dont mean the same thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I said accept not know. ������ Pretty sure they dont mean the same thing.

---

? I wasn’t even talking to you

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Better get those glasses checked then, because i know the moon dialogue. It doesn’t change the fact that we see firsthand the struggles some of the researchers faced, some of them having feelings like Hermes until they resolve their vows and understand what they’re doing is good. The main point is though it directly contradicts her whole point of them not knowing suffering. Again, she’s a mentally ill psychopath. Nothing more nothing less.

---

As Emet himself said

https://i.imgur.com/lnlIA9I.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Qyrn5O4.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

As for the “bug testing” i don’t think we should take everything the devs say as factual. They’ve been caught lying many a time. Considering they even had missing lines in the game that were featured in trailers, they clearly did some last minute changes both in shb and EW.

---

I’m not aware of any “missing” dialogue from either the launch trailer or the trailers released near the delay. Assuming anyone who says something that runs counter to your narrative is lying seems a pretty bad way to arrive at truth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

Do you want a medal for taking a screenshot unrelated to what I said, ergo failing to make that point (=intention for continual sacrifices after the third stage), and posting it?

---

I was specifically responding to your assertion that it’s only headcanon they’d continue giving sacrifices. The text suggests others were working off that presumption as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

To say nothing of the simple fact that the NPC being quoted was shown to be heavily biased and dismissed any questioning of Hydaelyn's incredibly shady and psychotic motives. I've never been fond of gaslighting being excused, least of all when it involves the horrific genocide of an entire species.

---

Wasn’t even a member of Venats faction but go off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t75AzYm0soM 1:05:10 to 1:06:00 this is the part I remember about them touching on story amongst many other problems for the delay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Wasn’t even a member of Venats faction but go off.

---

...?

The Watcher was created as a construct by Venat and when probed for insight into Venat's motives becomes evasive and basically handwaves the decision Venat made to lie and gaslight about her own people and the terrible atrocities that she allowed to happen to them by staying silent on the matter of the Final Days combined with inflicting genocide upon the Ancients as a direct consequence of the Sundering.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Just gonna chime in to say this is not at all how people operate. Many people go into fields like biology or medicine, studies that inevitably expose them to seeing the suffering of people and animals, out of a love for those selfsame beings. It’s a simple fact that those with a deep emotional connection to natural life will inevitably incorporate that into their day to day. Some with professions, others with volunteer work or hobbies. Hermes was clearly the former.

---

What you said here isn't contradictory to my point. I'm not saying that people can't go into biology fields if they love human or animals. I was talking more about how Elpis, as probably one of the most important research facility, didn't even realize how ill-equipped Hermes mentality is. Nothing wrong with him being a researcher there, but to become chief overseer? Do they not, idk, interview or test him? This guy is a loner, never open himself to other, and always oppose to put down creatures. More than that, that one person who watched him launch meteia into the sky didn't even report him for violating the rule, which is really baffling. Remember that this is a society so strict with rule they have procedure for everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I was specifically responding to your assertion that it’s only headcanon they’d continue giving sacrifices. The text suggests others were working off that presumption as well.

Wasn’t even a member of Venats faction but go off.

---

That screenshot you post is talking about either the third sacrifice, or about the sacrifice the Ascian going to do in order to bring back their brethren. Hence why they need to rejoined the shards first to free Zodiark, then do the fourth sacrifice (the sundered lives).

As for the Watchers, isn't is pretty much hinted that he's one of Venat followers? Specifically the one who lament her being gone after summoning Hydaelyn? I mean, Mare Lamentorum and Lopporits were made by Hydaelyn to watch over Zodiark and prepare for the Source escape plan, respectively. Why would Hydaelyn made a shade of an unrelated random person to watch over Zodiark? And even if she did, technically we still can say that the Watcher may be bias in his perception of Venat, just like how Hythlo shade in fake Amaurot is hinted to act that way because Emet wants him to be like that (to assist us by giving those convocation crystal).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

...?

The Watcher was created as a construct by Venat and when probed for insight into Venat's motives becomes evasive and basically handwaves the decision Venat made to lie and gaslight about her own people and the terrible atrocities that she allowed to happen to them by staying silent on the matter of the Final Days combined with inflicting genocide upon the Ancients as a direct consequence of the Sundering.

---

Evasive or trying to make sense of things with what they knew? Hydaelyn imbued them them with the memories of an old acquaintance and the job of maintaining the brands, but beyond that he’s given little direct guidance by her. There’s nothing to substantiate the claim he “was made to lie.” Show me evidence of that if you’re going to claim that as truth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

What you said here isn't contradictory to my point. I'm not saying that people can't go into biology fields if they love human or animals. I was talking more about how Elpis, as probably one of the most important research facility, didn't even realize how ill-equipped Hermes mentality is. Nothing wrong with him being a researcher there, but to become chief overseer? Do they not, idk, interview or test him? This guy is a loner, never open himself to other, and always oppose to put down creatures. More than that, that one person who watched him launch meteia into the sky didn't even report him for violating the rule, which is really baffling. Remember that this is a society so strict with rule they have procedure for everything.

---

Considering the other researchers we speak to offer glowing praise, he was so good that many he was seen as capable of of representing humanity, and that he was specifically chosen by the facilities previous chief, I’d say there’s a lot in his favor. And yeah, Meteion should’ve been registered and he should’ve discussed with others his plan, no argument from me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

That screenshot you post is talking about either the third sacrifice, or about the sacrifice the Ascian going to do in order to bring back their brethren. Hence why they need to rejoined the shards first to free Zodiark, then do the fourth sacrifice (the sundered lives).

---

Then you agree then that sacrifices would continue if they thought it would solve an issue their facing? Whether that be regaining those lost souls, rejoining humanity, or some other issue, sacrificing life to Zodiark in order to have Him address it is an option that’s can be used yes? I ask just to see if we agree on that in particular.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

As for the Watchers, isn't is pretty much hinted that he's one of Venat followers? Specifically the one who lament her being gone after summoning Hydaelyn? I mean, Mare Lamentorum and Lopporits were made by Hydaelyn to watch over Zodiark and prepare for the Source escape plan, respectively. Why would Hydaelyn made a shade of an unrelated random person to watch over Zodiark? And even if she did, technically we still can say that the Watcher may be bias in his perception of Venat, just like how Hythlo shade in fake Amaurot is hinted to act that way because Emet wants him to be like that (to assist us by giving those convocation crystal).

---

Not especially, as he never shows signs of knowing the specifics of Meteion, only recognizing that the Final Days would continue with Zodiarks destruction. The Watcher repeatedly states he’s not their to judge or hold positions on the issue, just to do what he was created to as an arcane creation. Beyond that, everything else can attributed to the memories he was imbued with.

He also refers to those who summoned Hydaelyn as they or them, while referring to the efforts to halt the Final Days and Amaurot as a whole with we and us. Best on display here:

https://i.imgur.com/LdaHyS3.jpg

The “they” referring to those who summoned Hydaelyn here.

Now of course I still won’t say it’s absolutely impossible he was still a member, but given what we have it points to him being an old friend and someone who thought well of Venat, but not a member of their faction. Which makes sense. Just because someone is an acquaintance doesn’t mean he’s necessarily going to be the best choice for a secret group trying to avert the apocalypse. Why she ultimately chose him to guard the moon is mystery however, and might have more to do with what he was an expert in.

Was watching the cut scene with the watcher. He says at one point Venat and her followers were focused on the future of their people. Now most of the ancients including the convocation were interested in reclaiming the life they had prior to the final days or the past. If this is true it would create a conflict of interest between the two sides. If Venat felt strongly enough about her peoples future and dealing Meteion as they did about reclaiming what they lost. Then its stands to reason that to ensure her interests that she would take drastic action herself. So opinions does anyone feel that this suitably answers why she made her decision?

I am not asking anyone to agree with her choice..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I was specifically responding to your assertion that it’s only headcanon they’d continue giving sacrifices. The text suggests others were working off that presumption as well.

---

I'm aware what you were responding to. It's still nothing to do with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Then you agree then that sacrifices would continue if they thought it would solve an issue their facing? Whether that be regaining those lost souls, rejoining humanity, or some other issue, sacrificing life to Zodiark in order to have Him address it is an option that’s can be used yes? I ask just to see if we agree on that in particular.

---

Desperately trying to stretch it into making some larger point about their plan pre-Sundering by invoking those specific sacrifices they intended to make post-Sundering to restore what Hydaelyn had shattered (forcing a new plan) isn't the most convincing of avenues, I'm afraid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Considering the other researchers we speak to offer glowing praise, he was so good that many he was seen as capable of of representing humanity, and that he was specifically chosen by the facilities previous chief, I’d say there’s a lot in his favor.

---

Well of course the writers would want to justify how hermes is suitable for his position. But if we were to analyze it from outside perspective, it's a weird decision. If it's only for his aptitude in flying creatures, just being a researchers there is enough. No need for him to be the chief.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Then you agree then that sacrifices would continue if they thought it would solve an issue their facing?

---

Not really. Yes to the third sacrifice, but after that? Why would they need to sacrifice more to begin with if the final days has stopped (at least to their knowledge)? Plus, zodiark isn't some mindless primal that will grant them every favour. With elidibus as it's heart, he's the one who decide what to do. Hence why he still sought peace with venat's faction.

And honestly, I don't see why the sacrifice is such a bad thing. Third sacrifice and the sundered sacrifice are bad, yes, but sacrificing themselves isn't. That's their own choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Not especially, as he never shows signs of knowing the specifics of Meteion, only recognizing that the Final Days would continue with Zodiarks destruction. The Watcher repeatedly states he’s not their to judge or hold positions on the issue, just to do what he was created to as an arcane creation.

---

But in the crystal memory log, he refers "they" for the convocation, and "we" for the venat's faction. I don't know how to post pictures, but you can see it at Garland Tools. But anyway, they probably make the Watcher to be very vague because they want to keep meteion and dynamis as a twist/surprise.

Either that or Venat doesn't tell her followers, or that she doesn't think the Watcher need to know everything.

(my guess is first explanation)

Hydaelyn's summoning is still something that makes no sense to me. The short story says "no small number" of people were against the third sacrifice, but depending on who you talk to on the forums Venat either had a substantial following or only the 12 people with her in Anyder. The issue is that some form of sacrifice had to occur for Hydaelyn to exist and I just don't buy that 12 people were sufficient enough to give her the power to ultimately defeat Zodiark. (I also find it hypocritical, but at this point what's new with her character?)

I'd have to double check, but didn't the Watcher also mention followers who looked after Zodiark post-sundering/imprisonment?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

So opinions does anyone feel that this suitably answers why she made her decision?

---

Why Venat did it has never mattered to me. It's that one individual shouldn't have the executive authority to override an entire planet. It was a non-consensual act, even debatably among her own followers who, in the Anyder cutscene, behave as if nothing is going to happen to them once she became Hydaelyn. Not to mention that since Elidibus wasn't inside Zodiark at the time, it appears she did it while he was trying to mediate which is also a bad look.

Forget the gaslighting the game does to make you think she's great and wonderful, on paper her actions read as an ideological terrorist.

I don't think she had the power to defeat him without dragging the entire star into it (an acceptable cost to her since she was going to sunder man anyway.) She ultimately mentions having to sunder the star, herself and him to contain him - now one could ask how do you sunder an entire planet, yourself and this very potent primal, and that'd be a good question, but apparently it just happened...

The third sacrifice initially saw broad division but that's before Elidibus emerged to mediate. A possible guess as to why that made a difference being that he was Zodiark's heart and could likely speak directly on what the souls inside him felt - seeing as it may have prevented their return to the star, which they prized. His emergence would also prove that it was possible to any doubters. So if they were concerned about whether it was feasible, and whether those inside Zodiark would approve of it, it could deal with those two issues. She did not disclose the actual knowledge she had, so I would surmise Elidibus's return proved decisive in melting away any remaining opposition to the sacrifices, especially if pitched in similar terms to the post-Elpis cutscene, i.e. avert them to avoid our doom... without really specifying why their doom would come beyond generalities about suffering.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

Desperately trying to stretch it into making some larger point about their plan pre-Sundering by invoking those specific sacrifices they intended to make post-Sundering to restore what Hydaelyn had shattered (forcing a new plan) isn't the most convincing of avenues, I'm afraid.

---

Right, they’ll be careful with the use of the “god born of our boundless faith.” They certainly will never sacrifice more souls to Him, ever again. After this third time of course. But then we’ll really be done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

Well of course the writers would want to justify how hermes is suitable for his position. But if we were to analyze it from outside perspective, it's a weird decision. If it's only for his aptitude in flying creatures, just being a researchers there is enough. No need for him to be the chief.

---

Those are the reasons. I’m simply arguing that’s what it says.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

Not really. Yes to the third sacrifice, but after that? Why would they need to sacrifice more to begin with if the final days has stopped (at least to their knowledge)? Plus, zodiark isn't some mindless primal that will grant them every favour. With elidibus as it's heart, he's the one who decide what to do. Hence why he still sought peace with venat's faction.

---

For the inevitable next calamity, challenge, problem, issue, etc? You’ve created a god that wants to solve all your problems, how strong is your will to resist the temptation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

And honestly, I don't see why the sacrifice is such a bad thing. Third sacrifice and the sundered sacrifice are bad, yes, but sacrificing themselves isn't. That's their own choice.

---

No argument here, I have no beef with the first two. The third and any further ones however are a bad idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

But in the crystal memory log, he refers "they" for the convocation, and "we" for the venat's faction. I don't know how to post pictures, but you can see it at Garland Tools. But anyway, they probably make the Watcher to be very vague because they want to keep meteion and dynamis as a twist/surprise.

---

Perhaps I’m mistaken, but doesn’t the we refer to himself and the Loporrits? The Loporrits are first mentioned in the crystal preceding the one where that is said, and they’re talking about Elidibus being on the moon in the present. Using we to refer to Venats faction would be odd given they are… not a we anymore truly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

Either that or Venat doesn't tell her followers, or that she doesn't think the Watcher need to know everything.

---

More than likely the latter, since he’s an arcane familiar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

(my guess is first explanation)

---

Then I suppose we disagree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

Why Venat did it has never mattered to me. It's that one individual shouldn't have the executive authority to override an entire planet. It was a non-consensual act, even debatably among her own followers who, in the Anyder cutscene, behave as if nothing is going to happen to them once she became Hydaelyn. Not to mention that since Elidibus wasn't inside Zodiark at the time, it appears she did it while he was trying to mediate which is also a bad look.

Forget the gaslighting the game does to make you think she's great and wonderful, on paper her actions read as an ideological terrorist.

---

What is good and what is consensus are not inherently the same. If an evil or damning act is to be taken by the majority, then one has an obligation to oppose them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

.

---

Might as well be because his attitude is what makes him capable to salvage creations that others would've discarded without a giving much thought (just like the flightless creation Emet-Selch is goaded into helping to avoid having Hermes embarrasing himself). Which is more responsible and more effective than simply creating discarding then creating new concept from zero. It's not weird from an outside perspective to make the most of everything, neither from pragmatism nor from moralism.

And I don't think anybody has an issue with the 2 first sacrifice, since they were willingly done and were clearly a last ditch resource. It's the third sacrifice where the issue is found. Moreover, it bears to mind that, while it wasn't the ill-intended side effect of the modern primals, those that helped carry out the summoning were still tempered. It's really hard to say how that kind of tempering works, since we don't have any clear example of it(and it's one of the things that irks me about both Shadowbringers and Endwalker), but, at the very least, it would assure that, even after the 3 sacrifice, things wouldn't really be the same way they were before. For all the plans they laid out, they could've deviated to plain fanatism and start to hinge on Zodiark for every woe. Or their magicks could tip to dark aspect (as a matter of facts, that seems to be what happens to Ascians, who don't casts "True" spells but "Dark" spells) which could create another crisis like a bigger World of Darkness. They're hypothesis, but that's not different from assuming the Ancients would simply go on with no further issues, because not even them can really see into the future and their plans do not always go as they intend, as theory and practices are two different things.

Also, it's really a wild assumption to assume Elidibus actions just based on... a single line?. Not to mention it contradicts with Emet statement that Zodiark and Hydaelyn fought until Hydaelyn finally sundered, unless Elidibus commanded Zodiark to fight Hydaelyn while trying to mediate peace which sounds as contradictory as it gets. For all we care, it could even mean he was trying to temper (with no ill intention, weird as it sounds) them into joining the cause or he could've been just insisting them that their way was the just one frantically, which could've actually worsened the situation. Maybe he did it when Hydaelyn wasn't summoned but, after that, could've realized there was no talking out of it. There is a lot of assumptions that could be made but, in the end, they're just assumptions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

Hydaelyn's summoning is still something that makes no sense to me. The short story says "no small number" of people were against the third sacrifice, but depending on who you talk to on the forums Venat either had a substantial following or only the 12 people with her in Anyder. The issue is that some form of sacrifice had to occur for Hydaelyn to exist and I just don't buy that 12 people were sufficient enough to give her the power to ultimately defeat Zodiark. (I also find it hypocritical, but at this point what's new with her character?)

I'd have to double check, but didn't the Watcher also mention followers who looked after Zodiark post-sundering/imprisonment?



Why Venat did it has never mattered to me. It's that one individual shouldn't have the executive authority to override an entire planet. It was a non-consensual act, even debatably among her own followers who, in the Anyder cutscene, behave as if nothing is going to happen to them once she became Hydaelyn. Not to mention that since Elidibus wasn't inside Zodiark at the time, it appears she did it while he was trying to mediate which is also a bad look.

Forget the gaslighting the game does to make you think she's great and wonderful, on paper her actions read as an ideological terrorist.

---

Thanks for your opinion. Dont expect you to agree with her, as just trying to establish what drove such a choice. Sadly in desperate times authority means nothing people will just do what they feel is right. Good guys dont always make the best choices and your not expected to agree with them when they make such choices.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

I don't think she had the power to defeat him without dragging the entire star into it (an acceptable cost to her since she was going to sunder man anyway.) She ultimately mentions having to sunder the star, herself and him to contain him - now one could ask how do you sunder an entire planet, yourself and this very potent primal, and that'd be a good question, but apparently it just happened...

---

This doesn't make any sense either given the context of her trial being the test of whether or not the WoL could face Meteion. Zodiark would've been the more powerful encounter by far if they were both sundered. I suppose you could hand wave it by saying Fandaniel wanted the WoL to defeat Zodiark so maybe he didn't bring his full power to bear, but that makes an already unsatisfactory encounter even worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

What’s is good and what is consensus are not inherently the same. If an evil or damning act is to be taken by the majority, then one has an obligation to oppose.

---

That is entirely subjective. One person's good is another person's evil.

(Meant to edit and not reply, hence the deletion.)

I think the Story was alright in Endwanker. If anything, i really disliked the Kingdom Hearts Arc in Elpis and what they did with the Ascians. They should have remained as a Mystery to us after the Events of ShB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

That is entirely subjective. One person's good is another person's evil.

(Meant to edit and not reply, hence the deletion.)

---

I fall into a moral realist camp so I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. I will ask though, do you think that one might disagree with it being subjective and thus have at least cause to act in this case?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

This doesn't make any sense either given the context of her trial being the test of whether or not the WoL could face Meteion. Zodiark would've been the more powerful encounter by far if they were both sundered. I suppose you could hand wave it by saying Fandaniel wanted the WoL to defeat Zodiark so maybe he didn't bring his full power to bear, but that makes an already unsatisfactory encounter even worse.



That is entirely subjective. One person's good is another person's evil.

(Meant to edit and not reply, hence the deletion.)

---

Very good point you make at the botton of your post. Something people should always keep in mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

So opinions does anyone feel that this suitably answers why she made her decision?

---

To me--and I'm sure others feel differently--there's a huge disconnect in what you outlined. I'll try to explain as best I can.

Meteion is the threat to Etheirys and the Final Days is what she's going to bring to Etheirys. You would think, then, that the thing that should be on the forefront of Venat's mind, what she is working towards, is stopping Meteion before the Final Days occurs. If the Final Days doesn't happen, then Zodiark doesn't exist.

Now, it's possible that she attempted to do this by herself, failed, and had to allow Zodiark as plan B--but there's no evidence of that in the game. What appears to happen is Venat told no one, gathered followers to oppose Zodiark (not Meteion), allowed him to be built with the lives of the people around her, and then (fundamentally) stole him for her own purposes.

Then in the 12,000 years that followed, she fanned the flames of discord between her blessed and the Ancient survivors. Surely, by the time the world was Sundered, at the beginning she could have told Emet-Selch, or Elidibus, or heck, depending on what he was like before he went nuts, Lahabrea what her plans were. Hermes was no longer there as a threat, having fulfilled his purpose to assist with the building of Zodiark as a dynamis shield. If they were still too infuriated by what they saw as betrayal to ever work with her, at least they would have made that decision while knowing there was a larger threat growing stronger and stronger as the centuries passed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I fall into a moral realist camp so I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. I will ask though, do you think that one might disagree with it being subjective and thus have at least cause to act in this case?

---

I've no doubt people disagree about what's subjective. The past two years have taught me that individuals have fundamentally different beliefs on what is right with some feeling fully justified in forcing others to adhere to their version of it. It doesn't, however, give them an excuse to act against others. Near as I can tell, the Amaurotines had a democracy that was overthrown by Venat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

If they were still too infuriated by what they saw as betrayal to ever work with her, at least they would have made that decision while knowing there was a larger threat growing stronger and stronger as the centuries passed.

---

Considering the writing of the expac, I'm sure they would have been all fine with this and would have lined up to kneel and kiss her foot and praise her for teaching them, the dumb nostalgic old grumps, all about hope (tm), love, life, and laughter. And, of course, to Move Foward, Move On, Forge Ahead (tm) together to the Better Brighter Future (tm) while saluting the flag of the United States of Alphinaud.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyborne

Considering the writing of the expac, I'm sure they would have been all fine with this and would have lined up to kneel and kiss her foot and praise her for teaching them, the dumb nostalgic old grumps, all about hope (tm), love, life, and laughter. And, of course, to Move Foward, Move On, Forge Ahead (tm) together to the Better Brighter Future (tm) while saluting the flag of the United States of Alphinaud.

---

Sad, but true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

To me--and I'm sure others feel differently--there's a huge disconnect in what you outlined. I'll try to explain as best I can.

Meteion is the threat to Etheirys and the Final Days is what she's going to bring to Etheirys. You would think, then, that the thing that should be on the forefront of Venat's mind, what she is working towards, is stopping Meteion before the Final Days occurs. If the Final Days doesn't happen, then Zodiark doesn't exist.

Now, it's possible that she attempted to do this by herself, failed, and had to allow Zodiark as plan B--but there's no evidence of that in the game. What appears to happen is Venat told no one, gathered followers to oppose Zodiark (not Meteion), allowed him to be built with the lives of the people around her, and then (fundamentally) stole him for her own purposes.

Then in the 12,000 years that followed, she fanned the flames of discord between her blessed and the Ancient survivors. Surely, by the time the world was Sundered, at the beginning she could have told Emet-Selch, or Elidibus, or heck, depending on what he was like before he went nuts, Lahabrea what her plans were. Hermes was no longer there as a threat, having fulfilled his purpose to assist with the building of Zodiark as a dynamis shield. If they were still too infuriated by what they saw as betrayal to ever work with her, at least they would have made that decision while knowing there was a larger threat growing stronger and stronger as the centuries passed.

---

Thanks for your view and opinion on the matter. As for me I am indifferent I have seen plenty of heroes do villianous acts and villians do heroic acts. So it no longer holds shock value for me. I have witness good guys sit bye and let good people walk unknowlingly towards death or with hold dire information.

No character should so morally correct and infoulable that they wont make or take actions that go against whats expected of them. But this is my view and opinion though.

I agree that sometimes good characters do bad things, but I don't think I've seen a good character as untrusting as Venat is.

I'll use an example from Endwalker. Imagine if, after we killed Zodiark, we told absolutely no one that the Final Days would restart due to him no longer shielding the planet. In fact, we don't tell anyone he's dead. Even further, if we, in fact, swore the Watcher to secrecy about this, because we were "afraid the citystates would panic" or "Urianger isn't as trustworthy as I'd like, so it's better to keep him in the dark."

Then we watch, silently, as the Final Days begin again. We watch as people die, forever parted from the aetherial sea and the cycle of rebirth. We watch as the Scions desperately try to figure out what could have possibly started the Final Days up again, wasting time and covering ground we already have intimate knowledge of.

But, since we're not Venat, we did what we did instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

I agree that sometimes good characters do bad things, but I don't think I've seen a good character as untrusting as Venat is.

I'll use an example from Endwalker. Imagine if, after we killed Zodiark, we told absolutely no one that the Final Days would restart due to him no longer shielding the planet. In fact, we don't tell anyone he's dead. Even further, if we, in fact, swore the Watcher to secrecy about this, because we were "afraid the citystates would panic" or "Urianger isn't as trustworthy as I'd like, so it's better to keep him in the dark."

Then we watch, silently, as the Final Days begin again. We watch as people die, forever parted from the aetherial sea and the cycle of rebirth. We watch as the Scions desperately try to figure out what could have possibly started the Final Days up again, wasting time and covering ground we already have intimate knowledge of.

But, since we're not Venat, we did what we did instead.

---

This is an incredibly well done comparison and i think it really cements just why Venat seems so…wrong about everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

I agree that sometimes good characters do bad things, but I don't think I've seen a good character as untrusting as Venat is.

I'll use an example from Endwalker. Imagine if, after we killed Zodiark, we told absolutely no one that the Final Days would restart due to him no longer shielding the planet. In fact, we don't tell anyone he's dead. Even further, if we, in fact, swore the Watcher to secrecy about this, because we were "afraid the citystates would panic" or "Urianger isn't as trustworthy as I'd like, so it's better to keep him in the dark."

Then we watch, silently, as the Final Days begin again. We watch as people die, forever parted from the aetherial sea and the cycle of rebirth. We watch as the Scions desperately try to figure out what could have possibly started the Final Days up again, wasting time and covering ground we already have intimate knowledge of.

But, since we're not Venat, we did what we did instead.

---

Trust is measured by ones willingness to honor it. What more can be said, there is a old saying keep your friends close and enemies closer.

That brings up a point I'm curious about: Meteion mentions that she has an egg that she's storing souls in so they won't be reborn. Does getting rid of the Endsinger allow the Blasphemies to actually go to the afterlife? The egg thing did crack before the final dungeon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

That brings up a point I'm curious about: Meteion mentions that she has an egg that she's storing souls in so they won't be reborn. Does getting rid of the Endsinger allow the Blasphemies to actually go to the afterlife? The egg thing did crack before the final dungeon.

---

One would think so..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

For the inevitable next calamity, challenge, problem, issue, etc? You’ve created a god that wants to solve all your problems, how strong is your will to resist the temptation.

---

What calamity? Once zodiark is summoned and shield ethyris, they're fine. Even after sundered for 12k years the barrier still hold fine. And they manage to be solve their own challenges and problems just fine before zodiark, so why would they need him for something trivial? The Ancients were sad by the fact that the sacrificed souls could not return to the star, so much so that they intended to sacrifice new lifes in order to free them. It's not a simple "oh no, my concepts isn't working as intended, better summon lord zodiark to fix it lol".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Perhaps I’m mistaken, but doesn’t the we refer to himself and the Loporrits? The Loporrits are first mentioned in the crystal preceding the one where that is said, and they’re talking about Elidibus being on the moon in the present. Using we to refer to Venats faction would be odd given they are… not a we anymore truly.

Then I suppose we disagree.

---

That's a possibility, true. Just fyi, what I meant by first explanation is the writer intentionally make things vague to keep us in the dark.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Snip

---

But all of those accusation you made about how "the Ancients will keep using zodiark" is just pure headcanon and hypothesis. You said it's weird to assume elidibus act by only single line.... But at least I have one 'proof' about it, unlike your point. That's what people have been telling you this whole time. You don't have proof that they will keep sacrificing life for any conflicts, problems, or issues that may arise after the Final Days. The Ancients aren't some hivemind incapable of thinking outside of box. They have debate halls to argue. They intentionally have Azem seat whose main job is to help the rest of the ethyris outside of Amaurot. It's just the final days blindsided them so much they were in a shock and made poor decision (third sacrifice).

*because someone doesn't even bother to tell them.

Edit: also want to add that the magic thing is just weird argument. The world of darkness happened because igeyorhm is too gung ho in her attempt to make it dark aspected. Just having "dark" spells won't do anything to the world. Besides, that would require them to constantly overuse it and we know the Ancients very rarely goes into combat. Creation magic is different from the usual magic attacks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyborne

Considering the writing of the expac, I'm sure they would have been all fine with this and would have lined up to kneel and kiss her foot and praise her for teaching them, the dumb nostalgic old grumps, all about hope (tm), love, life, and laughter. And, of course, to Move Foward, Move On, Forge Ahead (tm) together to the Better Brighter Future (tm) while saluting the flag of the United States of Alphinaud.

---

Lmao, I love this so much XD

Serious talk though, it's kinda sad that for me, who (way) more often than not prefer hopeful positive message/ending in a story or game, Endwalker actually achieved the opposite. It's like, yeah I get the message and I don't think it's that bad either, but sometimes there can be too much positive message(tm) you can get before it turned to cringe. They have been beating us in the head with these themes ever since SB, only to amp it up in EW. It's tiring. Not just the main protagonists (the scions) who are frothing at the mouth about it, but apparently now so do the rest of the npc. The fact that they have to made Sharlayan Forum to be so incompetent they couldnt find the ore themselves just to show how the scions "bring together the world" is.....cringy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

That brings up a point I'm curious about: Meteion mentions that she has an egg that she's storing souls in so they won't be reborn. Does getting rid of the Endsinger allow the Blasphemies to actually go to the afterlife? The egg thing did crack before the final dungeon.

---

I think she was referring strictly to the souls from the dead stars she visited, not the people of the Source.

The whole thing with the blasphemies was that it was believed there wasn't anything left of their souls to return to the Lifestream...but then again, Ardbert seemed plenty intact despite his lingering soul being thin enough that the only one who was able to tell he was there aside from us was Hythlodaeus who had exceptionally keen soul sight, so it's hard to say.

I do feel like there's a little side plot regarding that "egg" that's going be covered either through dailies or custom deliveries that's going to play out over the course of the expansion given what happens in the wake of the Smileton dungeon quest, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

I've no doubt people disagree about what's subjective. The past two years have taught me that individuals have fundamentally different beliefs on what is right with some feeling fully justified in forcing others to adhere to their version of it. It doesn't, however, give them an excuse to act against others. Near as I can tell, the Amaurotines had a democracy that was overthrown by Venat.

---

If morality is subjective, then wouldn’t it be impossible to say that someone is wrong for acting against others? After all, if I’m simply following my subjective moral principles, then am I not acting in the right as much as anyone else? What right would you have to judge anyone, if it’s all subjective?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

I agree that sometimes good characters do bad things, but I don't think I've seen a good character as untrusting as Venat is.

I'll use an example from Endwalker. Imagine if, after we killed Zodiark, we told absolutely no one that the Final Days would restart due to him no longer shielding the planet. In fact, we don't tell anyone he's dead. Even further, if we, in fact, swore the Watcher to secrecy about this, because we were "afraid the citystates would panic" or "Urianger isn't as trustworthy as I'd like, so it's better to keep him in the dark."

Then we watch, silently, as the Final Days begin again. We watch as people die, forever parted from the aetherial sea and the cycle of rebirth. We watch as the Scions desperately try to figure out what could have possibly started the Final Days up again, wasting time and covering ground we already have intimate knowledge of.

But, since we're not Venat, we did what we did instead.

---

Wouldn’t that depend entirely on the why though? This comparison only works if you believe that telling anyone would compromise the response to the Final Days, as was the case during the first one.

Not to mention, most people didn’t know about Meteion or despair or dynamis. Going through the role action quests you see the citizenry by and large ignorant to things. I just did the Ishgard one, and the citizens believed the blasphemy to just be another transformed heretic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

What calamity? Once zodiark is summoned and shield ethyris, they're fine. Even after sundered for 12k years the barrier still hold fine. And they manage to be solve their own challenges and problems just fine before zodiark, so why would they need him for something trivial? The Ancients were sad by the fact that the sacrificed souls could not return to the star, so much so that they intended to sacrifice new lifes in order to free them. It's not a simple "oh no, my concepts isn't working as intended, better summon lord zodiark to fix it lol".

---

Pandaemonium? The Omicron? Ultima? Some other alien race? Whatever the hell we’re gonna be working against for the next 10 years?

And just because they’ve managed so far says nothing about what the future holds. The Ea did just fine for longer, until they didn’t. The Omicron did just fine, until they didn’t. The dragons did perfectly fine, until they didn’t.

It’s inevitable they’ll face another challenge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozh

That's a possibility, true. Just fyi, what I meant by first explanation is the writer intentionally make things vague to keep us in the dark.

---

Ah my apologies then I misunderstood what you meant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

If morality is subjective, then wouldn’t it be impossible to say that someone is wrong for acting against others? After all, if I’m simply following my subjective moral principles, then am I not acting in the right as much as anyone else? What right would you have to judge anyone, if it’s all subjective?

---

Whether or not morality is subjective is a philosophical debate that's more than I care to get into over a fictional story in a video game. :P However, as an analogy, consider the position of someone who is pro-life who believes that abortion is the murder of millions of innocent lives every year. Discourse and democracy have failed to achieve the desired result of having it outlawed, so they feel it's their moral imperative to take matters into their own hands. They handicap every doctor who performs them so no more lives will be lost. Were they right to do this? Odds are even those who agree that abortion is murder would not condone handicapping doctors. The person would probably only be celebrated by a minority who would be considered extremists.

Loathe as I am to use that as an example, it was the first one that came to mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

Whether or not morality is subjective is a philosophical debate that's more than I care to get into over a fictional story in a video game. :P However, as an analogy, consider the position of someone who is pro-life who believes that abortion is the murder of millions of innocent lives every year. Discourse and democracy have failed to achieve the desired result of having it outlawed, so they feel it's their moral imperative to take matters into their own hands. They handicap every doctor who performs them so no more lives will be lost. Were they right to do this? Odds are even those who agree that abortion is murder would not condone handicapping doctors. The person would probably only be celebrated by a minority who would be considered extremists.

Loathe as I am to use that as an example, it was the first one that came to mind.

---

And then you have examples like civil rights leaders, individuals who acted in the face of public opinion, dramatically and violently so oftentimes, to fight for what was right. It comes down to what is right and wrong. A person acting against the majority is just when the cause is just, wrong when the cause is wrong.

And I’ll just note, moral subjectivity would mean you would not have grounds to argue that those individuals are wrong, regardless of whether their cause is just. After all, their subjective morals may make it an imperative for them to act.

Listening to the responses in the Q&A at the live letter... so far it's obvious there's things they never bothered to plan/write and there's also more nonsense.

They clearly haven't written yet what Azem was doing during the Final Days.

Memories from the final days passed from Emet to Zenos as you would pass DNA? (Yay more calvinball, memories edition!)

Venat consciously deciding to not sunder Emet, Lahabrea and Elidibus? But the rejoinings... the calamities... and the mass murder of the people on the Source and the shards... Did she really LET them do all that?

The simple answer for Venat not sundering those three is because we told her they weren't sundered, and she knew that's how it needed to play out.

As for Azem, we're Azem. And as a result, I don't think we'll ever see them, and as a result, only get small glimpses of what they did. That's a story we can think of for ourselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrForester

The simple answer for Venat not sundering those three is because we told her they weren't sundered, and she knew that's how it needed to play out.

As for Azem, we're Azem. And as a result, I don't think we'll ever see them, and as a result, only get small glimpses of what they did. That's a story we can think of for ourselves.

---

Things didn't "need" to play out that way any more than G'raha's future needed to play out in order for him to time travel (by which I mean it totally didn't). So not only did Venat held info that would have helped avert the mass murder of her own kind, she also allowed more mass murder by the hands of those she left unsundered (and this is not even delving into the rabbit hole that is determining if the act of sundering could be considered "murder" or not).

As for Azem, it wasn't a matter of us seeing them and more "what the hell were we doing while the world was going to hell?" To which they were very dodgy and "kind of have an idea" but they really don't.