Dark Knight Megathread

Oblation should not be a 10%, in it's current state, it's too weak to even matters. Same as when TBN during SB, when used on an other target : you always used it on someone close to die, but 90% of the time, it wouldn't make a difference.

Either buff oblation, to a 15%, to actually make it half decent to use ( because in the current state, i just tend to forget this thing exists : already too busy spamming my oGCD ), OR completly change what it does.

I could see oblation as being the second face of Dark Arts back then : adding effect on already existing tool.

Oblation / LD = halfen the recquired healing
Oblation / TBN = Guarentees the shield to break no matter what and give you a regen
Oblation / Dark mind = etc etc etc bla bla smth smth

You get the idea. Maybe some of the old school DRK players would be pleased with something like that, while feeling less insulted by how oblation feels weak. Don't get me wrong, the tool is fun to use, but too weak to matter.

I feel like they designed that tool as being an " oh shit " panic button you press, like for example as soon as you see a TB cast. Problem is, it's the complete opposite that happens : why would i use Oblation, a 10 mitig, with TBN, while i can use a 20% or 30% ? Literally makes no sense nor logic.
The tool is great when you already know in advance what's going to be thrown at you, NOT when it is unexpected

Hi just posting my three suggestions in order of urgency:

• -Remove the Unmend Trait, no one asked for it.
• -Change Blood Weapon if the effect was the same as Delirium it would be so much nicer to use than having to greed for those 5 gcds.
• -if DRK really needed a new trait just add Lifesteal to Blood Gauge moves or if you are crazy enough stacks to Abyssal Drain/Carve and Spit (for extra sustain in trash pulls).

Remove the Unmend Trait.

Add Blackest Blood trait: All Blood Gauge actions heal for X% of damage done.

However mentioned above is most likely not to happen as it takes too much effort to balance in one patch so they will probably just add a small burst heal to oblation and be like here we gave you something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

GNB isn't bad at sustain. DRK very much is. They've got strong mitigation tools, but they very much do need to be babysat by healers pretty much constantly during wall to wall pulling and boss fights with hard-hitting mechanics. The trade off is high damage.

At any rate, it's unlikely anything will change significantly before the end of Endwalker. SE has clung so steadfastly to their current iteration of DRK that one might be forgiven if they were as impressed by it as they are confused or dismayed. I would love to know why they're so adamant about it, though.

---

at the very least I would hope the increase TBN from 7 secs to 8 seconds so it matches the other tanks.

They should just give DRKs Bloodbath. It works amazingly well on Reaper especially when shit hits the fan on big pulls in dungeons(even at lvl 90) where the big potencies and percentage heals can save the group if you have a decent healer. Especially during Enshroud phases and the small HoT from Crest.

DRKs sustain problems wouldn't be an issue if Abyssal Drain was reverted to it's Stormblood incarnation and used MP instead of being tied to recast.

It's ridiculous how PLD/WAR/GNB have great sustain options but DRK has very little.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

They should just give DRKs Bloodbath. It works amazingly well on Reaper especially when shit hits the fan on big pulls in dungeons(even at lvl 90) where the big potencies and percentage heals can save the group if you have a decent healer. Especially during Enshroud phases and the small HoT from Crest.

DRKs sustain problems wouldn't be an issue if Abyssal Drain was reverted to it's Stormblood incarnation and used MP instead of being tied to recast.

It's ridiculous how PLD/WAR/GNB have great sustain options but DRK has very little.

---

I truly believe someone on their team has it out for DRK. There's no way things can turn so backwards lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jetfire117

I truly believe someone on their team has it out for DRK. There's no way things can turn so backwards lol.

---

They probably do. 3.0 DRK was by no means "perfect" and 4.0 even less so. But if there is one thing it proved is that complexity can be rewarding.

Whoever designed this job was a genius. They clearly understood what condition means and therefore response.

Before you had Blood Price, which was an incredibly useful CD to regain MP by enemy attacks. You had Sole Survivor, marking an enemy and also regaining MP as a result when they die while afflicted.
It's so obvious to see that conditions are what makes a game sophisticated or interesting by design. You might classify it as useless or unnecessary per se, but it's these little things that felt rewarding to me.
It made you think. It seperated the unexperienced tank from those that took their role seriously.

DRK currently has no justification for existing. Our new defensive CD Oblation, has no properties whatsoever. 10% damage mitigation which is laughable compared to what the other tanks received. Enhanced Unmend and the shared recast timer between Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain. Whoever did this to DRK clearly feels envious that people miss or pay respect to a job design far superior to what they came up with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

GNB isn't bad at sustain. DRK very much is. They've got strong mitigation tools, but they very much do need to be babysat by healers pretty much constantly during wall to wall pulling and boss fights with hard-hitting mechanics. The trade off is high damage.

At any rate, it's unlikely anything will change significantly before the end of Endwalker. SE has clung so steadfastly to their current iteration of DRK that one might be forgiven if they were as impressed by it as they are confused or dismayed. I would love to know why they're so adamant about it, though.

---

hey uh... bud?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...62/unknown.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

hey uh... bud?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...62/unknown.png

---

I’d prefer to see a longer range of data vs the current two weeks since early access, when everyone is still adapting to changes and dealing with their kit changes.

A down the road sample of data, excluding say, the 1st month of Endwalker release, is likely to be more accurate, I feel.

So I've been leveling DRK just to have some firsthand experience with how it stacks up to the other tanks in Endwalker. Something that really strikes me about it is: TBN feels very weak and inadequate next to Bloodwhetting/Nascent, Holy Sheltron/Intervention, and Heart of Corundum when you're fighting bosses, but it still feels very strong to me when you use it on dungeon pulls. Obviously nothing really stacks up to Bloodwhetting's insane AoE healing, but I really feel like TBN is the next-best thing, even compared to the huge buffs that PLD and GNB got to their respective skills.

So I started thinking about why there's such a discrepancy there: TBN is actual hot garbage compared to the other tank skills if you're in a raid/trial setting and taking tankbusters, but is still a top-notch mitigation skill on a dungeon pull. And I think it comes down to two things:

1) In a dungeon pull, you can actually fully leverage the shorter cooldown on TBN versus the other skills. Incoming damage is constant and relatively high, so (unless there's a WHM spamming Holy and enemies haven't built up stun immunity) you know that if you hit the button, the shield will pop, and you can essentially use it on cooldown. While an individual use of TBN is substantially weaker than BW/HS/HoC, dungeon pulls tend to last long enough that you get an extra 1-2 uses out of TBN, which swings pretty heavily in TBN's favour (obviously BW is still better).
2) In dungeon pulls, you're under far less pressure to conserve all your MP for raid buff windows: In a Light party, there are obviously fewer raid buffs to go around, and in the case of Trick Attack or Chain Strategem where the buff is in the form of a singletarget debuff on an enemy, they aren't relevant to AoE. So while you're losing DPS if you use multiple TBNs in a single minute in a raid setting, in a dungeon pull you aren't generally concerned with when your damage happens.


If we start to think about what changes could be made to translate these advantages into a raid setting, I think 1) is mostly off the table: It's not really reasonable (or desirable) to start giving raid bosses tankbusters every 15 seconds, on the dot, just to give DRK an advantage. However, TBN's current situation is really not all that bad if you ignore your DPS and try to maximize its usage. TBN is in the ballpark of a 1500 potency shield, and so if you were able to find situations where you could break, say, 9 or 10 of them over a 3-minute interval, that is functionally equivalent to DRK having an average of 4500-5000 potency of self-healing per minute. That's powerful, even if it isn't exactly precision-targeted and some of it winds up wasted. The issue, though, is that frequent usage of TBN in a raid setting isn't DPS-neutral, but in fact adds up to a pretty considerable DPS loss over time.

Which brings us to 2). If it's possible to change DRK such that using TBN at every reasonable opportunity, instead of only once per 60 seconds (or as close to 'once per 60 seconds' as possible), is no longer a DPS loss, then we've solved DRK's primary issue with mitigation. While I still strongly support a complete and total rework of DRK's gameplay, I can think of two ways to address this without completely upending the current playstyle:

1. Add an 8-10 second cooldown to Edge/Flood, and increase potency to compensate for lack of raid buffs: This would effectively limit DRK to two uses of Edge per buff window (most buffs being 15s in duration), meaning that any other MP they generate can be used elsewhere with no DPS loss. However, this would be a nerf to damage since it would force you to move 2-3 Edges out of raid buffs, so the base potency on Edge would have to be adjusted up by 35-40 or so, to 490 or an even 500 (And Flood would need an extra 10-15 as well just to keep up with Edge at 3 targets). This does carry the additional playstyle benefits of A) reducing the oGCD spam during DRK's burst windows, and B) adding extra oGCDs to the time between burst windows, to make the class less boring to play.
2. Allow DRK to store up to four charges of Dark Arts. This would let DRK use TBN more or less freely in between burst windows without having to move any uses of Edge outside of those burst windows. It would double down on DRK's current burst-centric playstyle, so this wouldn't be my first choice, but it would at least solve the inherent contradictions with DRK's current design. This would basically codify the "2/6" rotation as DRK's default mode of play, making it relatively easy to achieve without any weird MP-tick shenanigans.

I remain hopeful that DRK's low use rate will result in a proper rework for 7.0 that moves it closer to the playstyle that people actually found fun back in Heavensward, but in the meantime, its lack of efficacy on the defensive side of things is mostly down to how restricted you are in making effective use of TBN. Either of these changes would clear that up pretty simply, and both would improve DRK's usability issues in one way or another.

And then, the WHM starts to Holy.

I don't see how TBN is actually weaker in raid and stronger in dungeon.
It's not rocket science that the weak point of TBN is actually multi-hit situation.

You have a pack of mob that deals heavy damage, great your TBN will pop in less than 2s, yeah it broke, then for the next 13s what do you have ? Nothing.
Meanwhile, the other tanks shines MORE for multi-hit situation because they don't have a shield, they have pure mitigation, that last no matter how long they are exposed to damage.

TBN is an amazing tool for Single Big hit, because of the massive shield it is, and the fact that applying mitigation on top it, makes the TBN even stronger. But for Multi-hit scenarios, TBN is really weak

After some deep consideration I've amended the changes I suggested to see what people think of an abridged version.
1) TBN and Shadowbringer consume 30s of Darkside time rather than MP (or just a straight up cooldown).
2) Add an effect to Oblation where each of the DRK's weaponskills have a heal (potency is up for debate, probably like 100 or 200).
3) Bring back Dark Art's ability to enhance certain skills, and increase max dark arts stacks to 3. These enhanced skills can be used, OR a free edge/flood of shadow. This adds a bit of situational diversity.
4) Blood Weapon gives a dark arts stack upon execution and adds a 100-200 potency heal to each DRK weaponskill.

Making Dark Arts a pivotal part of maximizing DPS means smart use of TBN (which currently is a DPS loss if your timing is bad during a raid and the shield doesn't break) is critical to the class. In addition, having Blood Weapon and Oblation grant some weaponskill-based healing allows the DRK to sustain itself better (considering Abyssal Drain is the only real sustain tool it has, and that's useless outside of dungeons). Lastly, making TBN and Shadowbringer consume Darkside time (a mechanic that may as well not exist at the moment) means that you have to have to choose whether burst DPS or a shield is worth half of your maximum buff time.

Honestly I think these are realistic changes, but I have no idea if SE would ever consider making a tank class that has DPS-like mechanics that play off one another. Tbh all tanks need just a bit more complexity.

To make TBN easier to maximize without making it overpowered or even messing with Mana Costs could simply involve a mere increase in duration like from 7s Duration to 8/9/10s. Now it's up longer, giving more opportunities for both Mob Packs, AOE Mechanics and Bosses to bust apart.

At the same time it'll FEEL like a huge satisfying buff, much more so than Oblation at 82, but it's still the same 25% Max HP Bubble and against anything immediate that's powerful enough to bust it apart in 1 or 2 hits player won't notice much difference except that it was up and took those hits. For longer drawn out situations where threatening damage incoming is spaced out over longer periods of time instead of immediate, TBN won't feel so wasted since it'll be up longer 8/9/10s instead of 7s.

I would rather Not tie TBN to damage skills even further than it already is by tying it with Dark Side timer being up, I rather have the ability to raise shields anytime I want, Now, Later, Whenever without having the pre-condition of using an Edge/Flood attack which requires a Target to be hit.

Would changing Abyssal Drain to a WS and making it combo of Stalwart Soul help in dungeons? Going from WAR/PLD to DRK in dungeons is such an unnerving change of pace. Some extra healing would really help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dingodrole

...

---

It's a misconception that TBN is inherently weaker in multi-hit situations. What happens is the shield breaks, people start seeing full damage, and they immediately conclude that the mitigation is weaker. In reality, the mitigation is just frontloaded; TBN mitigates 100% of the first few hits, and then that averages out to a similar level of total mitigation to most other mitigation skills.

If it helps, do some quick napkin math versus the mitigation component of Holy Sheltron: Holy Sheltron takes ~22.4 seconds of auto-attacks to generate gauge, then provides 4 seconds of 32% mitigation (20% block and the additional 15% from Knight's Resolve) and 4 seconds of 20% mitigation (just the 20% block). For simplicity's sake, assume incoming damage is continuous and evenly distributed over time.

4 seconds of 32% mitigation, over a 22.4s total duration = ~5.7% overall mitigation
4 seconds of 20% mitigation, over a 22.4s total duration = ~3.6% overall mitigation
Added together, ~9.3% total mitigation.

For TBN to equal Holy Sheltron's average mitigation over time, it only needs to last 9.3% of 15 seconds each time you use it, which is only ~1.395 seconds - in your hypothetical where TBN only lasts 2 seconds, it is still offering nearly 150% the total mitigation of Holy Sheltron!

Now, Holy Sheltron also has a healing component to consider - but at the same time, TBN rarely breaks in 2 seconds even on large dungeon pulls. Anecdotally, I'd say the average TBN stays alive for 3~4 seconds when paired properly with other mitigation sources (on average; obviously sometimes it pops almost immediately, and sometimes it lingers around for 6s or very nearly doesn't break at all).


Its disadvantages are in fact only really apparent when used against heavy, single-hit tankbusters. In those situations, you're stacking up TBN's shield against the full effect of Holy Sheltron's 32% mitigation plus its 1000p HoT, which is a situation where TBN will always come out the loser, and you can't just hit TBN on cooldown because there almost certainly isn't going to be another tankbuster in exactly 15 seconds. When you're free to make use of TBN's shorter cooldown, the skill is competitive with the other tanks' equivalents. When you're comparing it on a per-use basis against attacks that come 25s or more apart and the lower cooldown doesn't help you, it loses every time.

Quote:

---

If it's possible to change DRK such that using TBN at every reasonable opportunity, instead of only once per 60 seconds (or as close to 'once per 60 seconds' as possible), is no longer a DPS loss, then we've solved DRK's primary issue with mitigation.
...
Add an 8-10 second cooldown to Edge/Flood, and increase potency to compensate for lack of raid buffs: This would effectively limit DRK to two uses of Edge per buff window (most buffs being 15s in duration), meaning that any other MP they generate can be used elsewhere with no DPS loss.

---

Sorry, Crater, on phone atm, but didn't want to have to slowly backspace through all but the relevant text, as Reply with Quote would otherwise force.

This seems one of the fairest takes I've seen on here of late.

I have to wonder, though, why having more than two edges under buffs would be such an issue, let alone warrant clunk like a 10s CD on Edge/Flood. If we don't want DRK to so obviously or rigidly play off 60s raid windows, wouldn't the far simpler solution be to just desync its CDs from them and increase the MP cost of Edge/Flood (and up generation proportionately) as to decrease the amount of time (in MP) that can be banked for raid windows?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

I’d prefer to see a longer range of data vs the current two weeks since early access, when everyone is still adapting to changes and dealing with their kit changes.

A down the road sample of data, excluding say, the 1st month of Endwalker release, is likely to be more accurate, I feel.

---

my point is this: Holy Shelltron, Clemency, Equilibrium, Bloodwhetting / Nascent Flash, Thrill of Battle: All of this I'd argue are more potent heals than Heart of Corundum and Aurora, and certainly more than soul eater on a single hit / abyssal drain. This is of course ignoring soul eater over time, since *what else are you doing on DRK?*

Sure once the players are more at ease and familiar with their jobs, these numbers are more than likely to change. But I dont see the general trend of PLD/WAR having more sustain than GNB/DRK changing without SE tweaking potencies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Annihilism

Would changing Abyssal Drain to a WS and making it combo of Stalwart Soul help in dungeons? Going from WAR/PLD to DRK in dungeons is such an unnerving change of pace. Some extra healing would really help.

---

Absolutely. And it also wouldn't make it literally useless. I love it because it's one of the few remaining iconic DRK skills, but it was fire and forget skill in shadowbringers with a bad heal. Now it's even worse because it shares a cast with Carve n Spit. The heal it gives during a big pull is even sadder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

my point is this: Holy Shelltron, Clemency, Equilibrium, Bloodwhetting / Nascent Flash, Thrill of Battle: All of this I'd argue are more potent heals than Heart of Corundum and Aurora, and certainly more than soul eater on a single hit / abyssal drain. This is of course ignoring soul eater over time, since *what else are you doing on DRK?*

Sure once the players are more at ease and familiar with their jobs, these numbers are more than likely to change. But I dont see the general trend of PLD/WAR having more sustain than GNB/DRK changing without SE tweaking potencies.

---

My issue with the data posted is that at best, it’s unreliable. That is also excluding the factor of having just two weeks of early access with Endwalker and folks adapting to their kit.

If we want true, accurate, measured data, then we need a strict test with controls set in place where the only variable is the jobs themselves. I doubt we will ever get that though.

This is why I dislike when folks throw out mass charts from aggregate data over a wide variety of scenarios and factors with no measure of controls and elimination of variables that would mask the truth of the data one seeks. I honestly feel it obfuscates more than it seeks to illuminate.


All of that having been said thus…

Drk has two sources of Sustain. If single target now, might as well only be one. Souleater. Abyssal Drain is only really good for multiple targets or trying to eke out whatever precious few seconds one has before activating their hated invuln if their healers are down.

Personally, due to HoC, I would consider Gunbreaker to be above Drk in sustain by comparison, even with the above data saying otherwise. Hence, my statement on seeking a sample down the road which might be more accurate.


Food for thought though. This kind of goes alone the lines of what are you saying about having only two tools.

But, how sad is it that if Drk wants to sustain, that in wall to wall pulls, they have to rely on Souleater and single target combo chains, as their strongest source of it to help offset healer stress, whereas in comparison with the other tanks, that isn’t even necessary on their end so much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I have to wonder, though, why having more than two edges under buffs would be such an issue, let alone warrant clunk like a 10s CD on Edge/Flood. If we don't want DRK to so obviously or rigidly play off 60s raid windows, wouldn't the far simpler solution be to just desync its CDs from them and increase the MP cost of Edge/Flood (and up generation proportionately) as to decrease the amount of time (in MP) that can be banked for raid windows?

---

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any reason why that wouldn't also be a fine solution, in principle. To me, I think it would be a lot more simple to extend the Edge cooldown since that would only require changing one skill, rather than changing the MP cost and also having to change the MP gain on Blood Weapon, Delirium, Syphon Strike, and Stalwart Soul, keeping in mind that natural regeneration is probably set at 200/tick - but as long as it accomplished the end goal of leaving DRK free to use TBN at will without losing DPS, changing MP costs/generation wouldn't bother me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

But, how sad is it that if Drk wants to sustain, that in wall to wall pulls, they have to rely on Souleater and single target combo chains, as their strongest source of it to help offset healer stress, whereas in comparison with the other tanks, that isn’t even necessary on their end so much.

---

I need to sneak a few 1-2-3 Souleater restore health combos in to save my ass many times when Abyssal Drain was on CD, I don't necessarily need to be topped off full health to survive, just enough to keep myself from going to 0 health and dead.

The only time I died so far getting to 90 and going through MSQ was falling off a platform in a trial, but other than that, if I didn't resort to 1-2-3 Souleater combo in low health situations like mistimed tank buster or AOE, going in blind, I think I would've died. DRK has been pretty fun for me so far in EW, but too many close calls with other players. Trust healers were pretty safe and consistent.

For added context, I always have TBN or Mitigations up when I can help it and don't let large gaps in defenses when I can help it i.e. Rampart has 1s left, TBN, TBN either pops or has 1s left, Oblation, Oblation about to end and no tank buster, Shadow Wall, Shadow Wall has 1s left, Reprisal and/or Arms Length/Dark Mind etc whatever as the situation deems fit so damage intake is mitigated enough to give player healers time to react and for myself to 1-2-3 Souleater to not die...

If Unleashed + Stalwart Soul 2 AOE Combo also had some heal potency on there like say 200 I think it would be a huge quality of life convenience. It'll just be the AOE version of Soul Eater Combo. In addition... Carve and Split really should get some heal potency on there too or just merge Abyssal Drain and Carve & Split so that the 1st Mob takes full big damage and subsequent mobs take less damage and it heals the DRK player, 1 less button and just 1 less CD to manage.

This is another small issue I have and it's with Button Bloat and Shadowbringer... it's an awesome 2 charge 60s CD Line AOE DPS Skill, I love it, but would it have hurt to have it replace a pre-existing skill at level 90 to save on Hotbar space like maybe replace Blood Weapon to restore Mana/Blood like each use of Shadowbringer also restores at least 300 Mana/25 Blood so that two uses of it restores about 600 Mana/50 Blood total or more?

Since we can only use Shadowbringer while Dark Side timer is up that already comes with a pre-condition of using Edge or Flood of Shadow beforehand so naturally Mana Restore wouldn't feel out of place. Could also make Shadowbringer Light Up Blinking when during Dark Side duration after using Edge/Flood skills so it feels more like there's DRK mechanic cohesiveness.

I.E. Use Edge/Flood 3000 Mana, Now I need Mana Back, Shadowbringer Skill Icon is Blinking/Lit, Hit Skill to Restore some Mana/Blood while also nuking the enemy further. Can Combine with Delirium Stacks or Bloodspiller/Quietus on own to spend that Blood. Now you can feel more like a badass who pulled off a satisfying combo chain Edge/Flood with Shadowbringers and Bloodspiller/Quietus to nuke the enemy outside of Delirium.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

But, how sad is it that if Drk wants to sustain, that in wall to wall pulls, they have to rely on Souleater and single target combo chains, as their strongest source of it to help offset healer stress, whereas in comparison with the other tanks, that isn’t even necessary on their end so much.

---

Point taken on the data. I just see it as reinforcing my own idea, in that a DRK would be using souleater how much more/less frequently than HoC? If more, then i can see the excessive numbers. If less then it shows how often / free HoC is as a sustain tool for GNB.

But I'd still argue / lament that DRK's sad state of affairs is its design. TBN is holding back the entire job alongside whatever SE does with it. JP players seem to love it, and sure it's good, but it's not the best thing since sliced bread. Especially with living dead still existing as it does. But more than that it's also the identity of it. Both WAR and DRK's lore is supposed to pertain to one's inner emotions, so it makes sense thematically that they'd have a similar design. Plus, lvl 70's job quest rewards TBN and the skill's tied into that chain of job quests so any potential rework'd have to include it IMO.
Personally I'd love to see DRK return to a mix of it's heavensward roots, and keep the frentic pace of SB. Kinda like how RPR plays now, ngl. But we have RPR now, so...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Personally I'd love to see DRK return to a mix of it's heavensward roots, and keep the frentic pace of SB. Kinda like how RPR plays now, ngl. But we have RPR now, so...

---

If only. I really wouldn't mind having TBN be free if we had other MP spenders. I fully agree this single skill is holding the job back, yet I don't want its MP cost removed because then the job would be way too easy. Don't get me wrong, removing the MP cost on TBN is the best decision balance wise, but gameplay wise? God, the job would fall so low in terms of skill.

This job just desperately needs a rework, it's already having its core gameplay fall apart. The devs need a better foundation than TBN alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crater

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any reason why that wouldn't also be a fine solution, in principle. To me, I think it would be a lot more simple to extend the Edge cooldown since that would only require changing one skill, rather than changing the MP cost and also having to change the MP gain on Blood Weapon, Delirium, Syphon Strike, and Stalwart Soul, keeping in mind that natural regeneration is probably set at 200/tick - but as long as it accomplished the end goal of leaving DRK free to use TBN at will without losing DPS, changing MP costs/generation wouldn't bother me.

---

Just to clarify my earlier meaning by way of a spitball example:

Put Carve and Spit, Abyssal Drain, and Blood Weapon on 45s CDs. Increase Edge/Flood/TBN cost to 4k. Up MP generator's effects slightly (net gain to MP spenders per minute, for which kit potency is generally rebalanced back slightly, atop the effects of reducing the MP-generating abilities' CDs). And just like that, we've got less absurd lulls in our action. A C&S + BW raid window will still manages a handy 4 casts under buff, or 5 with Dark Arts, but we're no longer lulled to half to a third of that cast rate between burst periods.

Easy further adjustments:

• Increase the MP gen of only Syphon Strike and Stalwart Soul, increasing lull cast rate more so than casts under burst.
• Have Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain merely reduce the MP cost of your next cast within X seconds, instead of granting fully bankable MP.

• Ideally, have this be Dark Arts, and perhaps thereby allow for TBN proportionate refunding for proportionate barrier consumption. That holding duration X probably ought to be set between 5 and 10 seconds, as to give a small recovery bonus for downtime enough to fit it under per-minute raid buffs without having to balance its use around that fact (since it'd normally be better just to spend it almost immediately). The downside of this idea is that you'd never want to use C&S as a finisher, unless DA duration was frozen outside of combat.

Some general thoughts after levelling DRK:

1) DRK doesn't need to get on this self-sustain bandwagon. Everyone misjudges tank squishiness at the start of expansions due to gear and stat changes. If anything, tanking this time around felt unusually robust. Perhaps they should take Living Dead's penalty mechanic off of DRK and give it to one of these self-healing types.
2) I'm not really sure what niche Oblation is designed to cover. This is a single target Reprisal, down to the cooldown timer. When coupled with other forms of damage resistance, it provides even less value than the listed 10% because they are multiplicative. It looks cool, but that's about it. I'd like it more if it was a 15% bubble.
3) Salt and Darkness was surprisingly fun to use. It's a single button press, but it's unique. I suppose it's in part because it's a trap that you can activate.
4) Shadowbringer doesn't really feel like a capstone ability. I hardly notice when it goes off because of how similar it feels to Flood.
5) Enshroud is so much fun to use, especially when you do a back to back Shroud with Plentiful Harvest. Oh wait, wrong job. But imagine if Delirium had no recast but cost 50 blood to use, and when you use it you do the old Dark Arts animation and gain a dark shadowy flaming aura with glowing red eyes, granting you a 1.5 second GCD and upgraded animations on all your actions. And then when you Living Shadow, it automatically puts you into Delirium mode as well. That's kind of what it would be like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

There are plenty of players who chose to invest their time into jobs that give them a competitive advantage even if they don't find them to be particularly entertaining, because the outcome is more important than the process to them.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shin96

Where are the statistics? I doubt it's going to be many players.

---

Not that I'm the sort of person who enjoys saying that 'I told you so,'' but...

I told you so.

I wish delirium was enshroud

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalaam

I wish delirium was enshroud

---

Twisting this a bit, why doesn't Blood Weapon work functionally like Enshroud. (if not the gcd increase, at least the duration w/charges) 9.5 second duration on Blood Weapon is just taking the piss out of people with anything more than 130 ping, when (correct me if i'm wrong) game is intended to be played at 200 ping. Is Blood Weapon intended to be only 4 gcds then? I'd genuinely love if this was asked in an interview with SE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deathshiro

Twisting this a bit, why doesn't Blood Weapon work functionally like Enshroud. (if not the gcd increase, at least the duration w/charges) 9.5 second duration on Blood Weapon is just taking the piss out of people with anything more than 130 ping, when (correct me if i'm wrong) game is intended to be played at 200 ping. Is Blood Weapon intended to be only 4 gcds then? I'd genuinely love if this was asked in an interview with SE.

---

wHaT lAtEnCy IsSuEs? WeVe NeVeR hAd A pRoBlEm On OuR sIdE wItH pInG

Blood weapon is just badly design and had no thoughts put into it with DRK aoe being spells
it use to be a 18 second speed buff you could extended with delirium but now its infuriating Infuriate

Hot-take:

I'd kind of love it if Blood Weapon and a defensive or two (with alternate payoff and thereby some banking opportunities, a la TBN) were our only MP spenders and MP spent in turn generated a separate... Shadow gauge. Add some interactions between Shadow and Blood and you've got your thematic "Black Blood" burst periods. Drop Quietus; make Abyssal Drain a variable Blood spender, and add a leech (damage dealt heals you) period to Bloodspiller, causing all Blood spenders to self-heal. Have a low base/resting point for Blood to which DRK will passively generate gauge when out of combat (e.g., 30 out of 100 Blood, enough for a single undercharged Abyssal Drain).

Living Shadow is unlocked after having spent X amount of each among Shadow and Blood. Rather than displaying yet another gauge, you simply see Living Shadow's 'cooldown' spin up to show the duration it'd have. While Living Shadow is active, your damage is reduced by 20%, but your Living Shadow precisely copies your offensive actions for half effect. As such, it's still a damage bonus (.8*1.5) of 20% -- effectively more when counting MP generation. There, we'd now have the best doppelganger skill.

All I want is for the Blood Gauge spenders to restore HP, and for Oblation to be part of Dark Mind instead so it gets some actual use outside of magical attacks. That way its full power comes from mitigating against magic, but also helps mitigate physical attacks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

All I want is for the Blood Gauge spenders to restore HP, and for Oblation to be part of Dark Mind instead so it gets some actual use outside of magical attacks. That way its full power comes from mitigating against magic, but also helps mitigate physical attacks.

---

I take ANYTHING that increases my sustain at this point.

I would be OK if Unleashed + Stalwart Soul AOE Combo had some heal potency on it like 200 per Combo at least so that when DRK players spam it to keep aggro they get the similar sustain as they would when doing the 1-2-3 Soul Eater Combo on one or two mobs.

And Carve & Split should either get a some heal potency on it that's appropriate for single target so that it's actually consistent with Abyssal Drain since Abyssal Drain restores MP now and HP per Mob while Carve & Split is just restores MP for secondary effects.

And/Or Merge Carve & Split with Abyssal Drain to decrease button bloat and have it work like: 1st Target Takes Full Damage X Potency, remaining targets take 50% less damage etc, Heal Potency X per Mob. C&S and Abyssal Drain already share the same CD timer, might as well make it the same button and cut down on button clutter.

I'd definitely welcome Bloodspiller/Quietus and/or Delirium stacks restoring some HP on weapon skill hit too.

If you want to make the no drk sustain argument that's fine but we don't even have shield exclusivity anymore. Wtf are we supposed to have beyond damage? That comes and goes for all tanks depending on patch and content.

I watched a paladin solo a dungeon boss down from 60% percent because of how they were able to sustain themselves. Sure it took a while but they could keep themselves alive. As a DRK.....I wish.

Maybe we should just accept our days as DRK's are over. Gotta pull a Cecil now cause SE won't change their mind lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Just to clarify my earlier meaning by way of a spitball example:[...]

---

I would very much like to see DRK's cooldowns stop being multiples of 60s, so I'd be behind changes along these lines. I guess my only "objection" here is that if I'm trying to think about SE's actual habits when it comes to job adjustments, then I think something like this would only really happen as a "major rework" that wouldn't happen until 6.2~6.4, if not all the way until 7.0 and I'd like to see something sooner - but if they were willing to do it, I think it would be an improvement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultaniku

I watched a paladin solo a dungeon boss down from 60% percent because of how they were able to sustain themselves. Sure it took a while but they could keep themselves alive. As a DRK.....I wish.

---

Ive done it with a WAR. Healer dies on the last boss of the 85 dungeon. He and I duo'd that from 64% to kill.

I'm wondering if that's SE's tradeoff? DRK as little to no real sustain so they do more damage? Salted Earth should have a regen tacked on to it, Absorb-HP as an OGCD should be somewhere in it's kit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tracewood

I'm wondering if that's SE's tradeoff? DRK as little to no real sustain so they do more damage? Salted Earth should have a regen tacked on to it, Absorb-HP as an OGCD should be somewhere in it's kit.

---

Damage advantages never last.