Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by Hontaro

What about weaving 2 oGCDs after Heavy Shot, cutting into the GCD? Of course there is a small dps loss if there's no proc, but then you could use the proc right after Heavy Shot and it makes room for other oGCDs later on in your rotation.

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You could do that, but that's part of the problem on why I hate bard's (lack of) natural flow to their skill execution. If I'm doubling up oGCDs, its a period of time where my GCD is ready but I can't use any other weapon skills. It seems very counterproductive to have a job that's oriented toward double weaving oGCDs (because of river of blood's effect) gain cast times (which works against double weaving oGCDs, SMNs know this when they choose to use ruin II in place of I to weave in fester)

Something I haven't seen mentioned, but that becomes rather annoying after many hours of raiding which is another consequence of WM.
The darn songs can't be turned off during casts X_X

I ended up overplaying songs that didn't turn off because my button press happened to clip the end of a cast and then I'd have my next cast already started making me stuck with the song for another GCD or longer if I didn't notice in time.

I literally have to cut into my GCD to turn OFF a song which already took me 3sec to cast to begin with :S

My opinion is the changes they made to Bard make it too much like Machinist. When they talked about Machinist before release, it was like "Machinist has a thing they can do to sacrifice mobility for more DPS." I thought, "oh, that would be an interesting contrast with Bard." I figured that would be a MCH thing and maybe they could out-DPS Bard of they can park their butt long enough, and lose out to Bard if they have to move enough.

No, instead they did Wanderer's Minuet and made Bard and Machinist a little too similar IMHO.

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

No, instead they did Wanderer's Minuet and made Bard and Machinist a little too similar IMHO.

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but i honestly dont think this is necessarily a bad thing. all tanks feel quite similar when i play them. i can just utilize aoe far more easily with drk, be more defensive as pld, or play war like i would a dps. but essentially they are mostly pull > 1,2,3 > 1,2,3. the problem i think is mch was built from the ground up, where minuet was just slapped on brd and felt implemented so sloppily in accordance with their river of blood among a few other things

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Originally Posted by Ehuxley

I'm really not happy with the changes to high-level Bard either. I had a great time leveling Bard and really enjoyed how it played in all the level 50 dungeons and early Heavensward, but the second I got to 52 the entire thing was flipped on its head and it felt like the entire purpose and niche of the Job was removed. It really feels like I've wasted a whole lot of time, and like a pretty major bait-and-switch for me to have leveled this class specifically because I wanted to play a ranged and didn't want to cast, only for it to become a caster with no in-game warnings that it would happen until as far in as level 50.

And I'm fairly new to this game. I can only imagine how much more frustrating and disappointing it is for people who fell in love with and invested all of their time in Bard in A Realm Reborn, only to find their main Job pretty much gone in the expansion.

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Well said. There are indeed many career bards from ARR who have turned to other classes because the job that they loved is now gone. :(

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

My opinion is the changes they made to Bard make it too much like Machinist. When they talked about Machinist before release, it was like "Machinist has a thing they can do to sacrifice mobility for more DPS." I thought, "oh, that would be an interesting contrast with Bard." I figured that would be a MCH thing and maybe they could out-DPS Bard of they can park their butt long enough, and lose out to Bard if they have to move enough.

No, instead they did Wanderer's Minuet and made Bard and Machinist a little too similar IMHO.

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I couldn't agree more! It doesn't make sense to try to shoehorn a drastic playstyle change into an existing class and potentially alienate players. Not when they could have chosen to only make MCH play this way, and if players didn't like it, they could walk away with minimal time invested. Instead, they made two classes practical carbon copies of each other with no choice of another ranged physical DPS if you didn't like it.

I wonder, does devs really read all this complains, ideas and suggestions or we just talk about how they break Bard, but in the end nothings going to change. Like, is it even possible to reverse Bard back to pre-hw state, with different approach?

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Originally Posted by Dzique

I wonder, does devs really read all this complains, ideas and suggestions or we just talk about how they break Bard, but in the end nothings going to change. Like, is it even possible to reverse Bard back to pre-hw state, with different approach?

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Gods, I hope so. Nothing would make me happier than if they reverted the bard playstyle to ARR and reworked the post-50 abilities.

Mess with machinist all you want, but give us bard back!

Atm im getting used to stance-switching and that makes Bard interessting for me again... good training-grounds f.e are A3 or Neverreap endboss addphase imo... where mobility comes in handy again. The only thing they could change is the reactivition-time from Wanderer's Minuet... if you could change instantly from WM stance to normal stance without cooldown, i would getting used to it even more. :3

I stopped switching in neverrreap ages ago(though first few times I usually turned it off after 50% mark) and never did it in a3 at all. Plenty of time for all.

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Originally Posted by Neela

The only thing they could change is the reactivition-time from Wanderer's Minuet... if you could change instantly from WM stance to normal stance without cooldown, i would getting used to it even more. :3

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Assuming macros work like I think they do, you'd end up with BRDs making something like:

/ac "Wanderer's Minuet" <me>
/ac "Empyreal Arrow" <t>
/ac "Wanderer's Minute" <me> (or cancelaura if that exists here).

I get the feeling this is the reason stances in general have cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

/ac "Wanderer's Minuet" <me> <wait.1>
/ac "Empyreal Arrow" <t> <wait.15>
/ac "Wanderer's Minute" <me>

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There nothing much there to do really. But iron jaws is also gated behind it.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

I stopped switching in neverrreap ages ago(though first few times I usually turned it off after 50% mark) and never did it in a3 at all. Plenty of time for all.

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At a certain threshold of Crit and Skill Speed, swapping out of WM is a DPS loss anyways. Between River of Blood procs and the reduced GCD altering the AA to WS ratio there is just no way to fit in AA damage in such a small window (6 seconds to possibly get 2 AA attacks in, FML). (Not to mention that Skill Speed reduces the CD on Empyreal Arrow, further reducing that window)

While I do agree that BRD is completely changed with the WM mechanic, I think it's cool the way they made a class that is so dynamically altered by varying values of the SS stat. Bard for me is one of the most interesting new job updates.

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Originally Posted by Dzique

I wonder, does devs really read all this complains, ideas and suggestions or we just talk about how they break Bard, but in the end nothings going to change. Like, is it even possible to reverse Bard back to pre-hw state, with different approach?

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Problem is they would lose a lot of face by just going and changing it back. It is much worse worse for someone coming from a Japanese cultural background than an American.

An interesting idea I just thought about would be to change Wanderer's Minuet such that you still have to stand still for however many seconds for your abilities to go off but you can use off-globals while waiting/casting. There would probably need to be some adjustments to ensure this doesn't make bard OP, but it would restore the old style and balance of gameplay, while still enacting the tradeoff of mobility for DPS.

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

Problem is they would lose a lot of face by just going and changing it back. It is much worse worse for someone coming from a Japanese cultural background than an American.

An interesting idea I just thought about would be to change Wanderer's Minuet such that you still have to stand still for however many seconds for your abilities to go off but you can use off-globals while waiting/casting. There would probably need to be some adjustments to ensure this doesn't make bard OP, but it would restore the old style and balance of gameplay, while still enacting the tradeoff of mobility for DPS.

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They should've forecasted this from the start. Not only did they give two job of the same dps breakdown (physical ranged) a skill that has the exact, same functionality, they also didn't consider the fact that BRD's auto attack was roughly around 20-25% of their overall dps, and expected WM to amount to a damage decrease when it boosts damage by 20% while removing autos. On the MCH side, I felt they didn't bring up to the expectations of having "various attachments" and introducing the use of ammo to boost their skills. They also could've made GB and WM work differently from each other as far as what they increased; One could increase attack speed while reducing TP cost.

One trend I keep noticing with SE is that they fail at doing this when it comes to future balancing. DRG had pitiful magic defenses? They make a raid content where its huge emphasis on magic damage to the point that their survivability became a liability.

Our AA was 20-24% our damage, now we have 30% from WM.

We lose AA but we get more damage during multidotting, more rain of death procs with zero tp cost.

I don't think Bard will reverse before WM. The bard atm is fine. Do a good dps, still have the support abilities and can avoid aoe without losing dps or a few less than others jobs as Black mage.

Bards have a learning curve once you get WM and Iron Jaws that you need to take. Practice in all kind of combat. Instead of blame SE for changes, grab your bard, search one dummy and test, shoot, move and shoot again. All of this, require time and practice, but it's better play like 2 year ago than learn others playstyles.

Always these anti bards or bad bards tossing nonsense. Bards will still loose dps from aoes. Even with the 1.5 second cast, if aoe comes after you finish the cast/before you can cast again, you have to move and delay next gcd or turn off minuet. worst moment for that kind of situation is when you are about to refresh dots with iron jaws. also bard damage is notably more delayed due the animation and cast times compared to other jobs (already casting next ability when the last cast finally lands).
I am not expecting cast times to go away, but we can expect ease and improvements to the abilities/cast times, maybe even pray for higher movement chance or even 1 free gcd without casting. There is nothing new to learn with cast times, those who see casts as increased skill requirement, i dont think they can even play the job properly. so all these alexander normal "bards" or black mages seeing bard as under job can shove their complains and whines somewhere else. Bard needs fixing.

Fyi i am not a bard. I am a salty bowmage

As someone who started playing BRD after 3.0, I have to say that Wanderer's Minuet isn't what turned me off; it was the lack of ways to increase mobility while under its effect. MCH, with its higher chance to proc Slug Shot/Clean Shot and Rapid Reload for forcing a proc once every 15 seconds, feels like it just has more tools to reduce downtime during barrage/telegraph phases while BRD feels like it's completely at the mercy of seldom Straight Shot procs.

It's a QoL issue to me.

To me problem starts with how they introduced Bard in 2.0. How they said i'ts an quick and agile supportive class, but with lesser damage in comparison to other dps classes. So when someone picked Bard for i'ts main, it was because of his supportive side and swiftness in battle. Now to me it's illogical to just boost our damage and slowing class overall, rather than taking into consideration previous Bard perks.
And here comes the next problem. There is no real support in this game. SE looking at Bard, must think that only thing they can do is to increase it's damage. No sense in adding more songs and supportive aspects when Bard is a dps. So it needs more damage to meet criteria in new raids and dungeons. Hopless never-ending circle of dps checks.

I got my bard to 60 (ding and that was it) then switched to a different class because WM breaks my fave class. Bard was defined as highly moble, low damage, support. It was the perfect class to learn ANY content on. Being good though required skill because their damage sucked. When the first hint of WM came around, I figured it was a SONG (ya know, draings mp?) that increased damage for the bard. They said you could cast it and another at the same time. Therefore you'd only get 1/2 the Song uptime if you kept WM up for yourself and Foe's. This made sense; dock your support ability and GAIN DAMAGE. Get 52, oh gods no.
That above, could be cool. Personally for Eymperon Arrow and Iron Jaws, though, I think they should just HAVE their cast time but not be gated. That would make more sense to me. Your best new skills? Yeah, you have to stand still for them; WM up? Even better, they do more damage.

Moving away from the WM argument, how do you guys feel Bard has been scaling with gear? I've been a little disappointed overall with how little the return has been for DEX. I'm now i205, still 200 weapon, and I average between 1220-1250 with no food, no pot, party bonus. My monk friend has seen substantial boosts in his dps (he's now riding close to 1,450 on average at 203), and I feel the gap should be closer. I know I'm not counting disembowl, but I shouldn't have to. What are other Machinists, Bards doing around 205 with no buffs outside party?

Edit: on the topic of WM, I still only have a few complaints. The biggest would be straighter procs happening after using another GCD, preventing me from immediately using it or, even worse, using a straight only to use a straighter right after. I'm already running into TP issues with the amount of skill speed we aquire, so this furthers my quality of life annoyance. I've already talked about this subject though, I'm just hoping SE will take notice and help us out. :]

While true their is tp issues, Ninja has the same issue, if not worst. And if some want to argue this, well maybe play both classes and you will know ;)
I really do not like the gear stats that have been added to HW and even other classes some of the stats really make no sense at all and in turn have to use crafted gear instead. Tank gear is bleh and i have not been overly happy about the black mage gear.
I do not think Dervy is around anymore for stat weights and such but to me it could be better. Perhaps the new raid or whatever it be (the new 24 man coming) will have gear better suited.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

Moving away from the WM argument, how do you guys feel Bard has been scaling with gear? I've been a little disappointed overall with how little the return has been for DEX. I'm now i205, still 200 weapon, and I average between 1220-1250 with no food, no pot, party bonus. My monk friend has seen substantial boosts in his dps (he's now riding close to 1,450 on average at 203), and I feel the gap should be closer. I know I'm not counting disembowl, but I shouldn't have to. What are other Machinists, Bards doing around 205 with no buffs outside party?

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GL allows monks to scale exponentially compared to other classes

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Originally Posted by jmdude

GL allows monks to scale exponentially compared to other classes

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I understand that much, I still feel Bard is scaling the same way as it did in 2.0 though - Songs are becoming less useful, we're still dealing 200~ish less than other jobs, even moreso in Turns like 2 (SMNs and BLMs destroy us). The Weapon Damage is still a problem imo.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

I understand that much, I still feel Bard is scaling the same way as it did in 2.0 though - Songs are becoming less useful, we're still dealing 200~ish less than other jobs, even moreso in Turns like 2 (SMNs and BLMs destroy us). The Weapon Damage is still a problem imo.

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You are right that BRD scaling is very similar to how it was in 2.0, other than the rate at which it will scale with better gear and River of Blood.

Straight Shot = +10% Crit - Base Crit multiplier is +45% - So Strait Shot adds an average of 4.5% extra damage, and the guaranteed crit of a Straighter Shot proc is not that strong.

Now imagine BRD hitting a 40% Crit Rate (with Straight Shot buff) at an effective 70% multiplier.

That means that Straight Shot is a 7% damage buff, with a 70% multiplier for straight shot procs + greater chance at Blood Letter procs.

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If SE is able to make adjustments so that BRD has more opportunity to weave oGCD skills, then I feel that it's damage output is going to be ridiculous with higher gear. The downside is that it starts out a bit weaker. (although some people are able to do great damage)

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Other than that issue with Straighter Shot procs being delayed. While stacking SPD if you get your cast time to 1.4s or less it really smooth's out the class and gives really tight dot reapplications

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IMO Foes and Ballad are irreplaceable, as far as party play and progression go. TP, not so much an issue now due to class changes.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

You are right that BRD scaling is very similar to how it was in 2.0, other than the rate at which it will scale with better gear and River of Blood.

Straight Shot = +10% Crit - Base Crit multiplier is +45% - So Strait Shot adds an average of 4.5% extra damage, and the guaranteed crit of a Straighter Shot proc is not that strong.

Now imagine BRD hitting a 40% Crit Rate (with Straight Shot buff) at an effective 70% multiplier.

That means that Straight Shot is a 7% damage buff, with a 70% multiplier for straight shot procs + greater chance at Blood Letter procs.

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If SE is able to make adjustments so that BRD has more opportunity to weave oGCD skills, then I feel that it's damage output is going to be ridiculous with higher gear. The downside is that it starts out a bit weaker. (although some people are able to do great damage)

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Other than that issue with Straighter Shot procs being delayed. While stacking SPD if you get your cast time to 1.4s or less it really smooth's out the class and gives really tight dot reapplications

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IMO Foes and Ballad are irreplaceable, as far as party play and progression go. TP, not so much an issue now due to class changes.

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River of Blood will always be gated with Wanderer's Minuet, and it's useless to metagame an idea that doesn't yet exist. There'll be plenty of scenarios when you can't hit your BL/RoD immediately, creating an overall DPS loss. Also having BL proc over and over and over again can cause issues for your OGCDs, which in turn messes up your necessary GCDs (EA, Iron Jaws, SS). River of Blood isn't as game breaking for Bard's meta as it was in 2.0. That being said, don't misconstrue my words: River of Blood is incredibly useful and pairs extremely well with multi-dotting Iron Jaws. We shine in AS1 for that reason.

Also your numbers are... off, or confusing at least. Where was it discovered that the base crit modifier is 45%? Is this pre 2.0, post 3.0? You do realize that the Crit Damage formula was changed, and how Crit works is also changed, right? I guess I need more information from you to truly understand where you're coming from.

Finally, Ballad and Foe aren't necessary, depending on the composition. If you're overgearing content, Ballad becomes negligible, along with Paeon. If your group is three melee, 1 caster, then Foe becomes less useful as well and the addition of a Ninja, Summoner, or DRG bring additional utility that'll effect raid DPS just as much. However, I will say that Floor 1~4 caters to Bard in terms of longevity, as their songs very strong for fights like As2, As3, and As4.

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Originally Posted by Maero

While true their is tp issues, Ninja has the same issue, if not worst. And if some want to argue this, well maybe play both classes and you will know ;)
I really do not like the gear stats that have been added to HW and even other classes some of the stats really make no sense at all and in turn have to use crafted gear instead. Tank gear is bleh and i have not been overly happy about the black mage gear.
I do not think Dervy is around anymore for stat weights and such but to me it could be better. Perhaps the new raid or whatever it be (the new 24 man coming) will have gear better suited.

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My Ninja is 198, I know what they go through. I don't think you read what I said correctly, as in I'm not asking for a TP adjustment for Bard, but rather for Straighter Shot to proc early so we don't waste TP using a 70 TP move twice in a row needlessly.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

River of Blood will always be gated with Wanderer's Minuet, and it's useless to metagame an idea that doesn't yet exist. There'll be plenty of scenarios when you can't hit your BL/RoD immediately, creating an overall DPS loss. Also having BL proc over and over and over again can cause issues for your OGCDs, which in turn messes up your necessary GCDs (EA, Iron Jaws, SS). River of Blood isn't as game breaking for Bard's meta as it was in 2.0. That being said, don't misconstrue my words: River of Blood is incredibly useful and pairs extremely well with multi-dotting Iron Jaws. We shine in AS1 for that reason.

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I'm not sure what the bolded section means.
If SE does make adjustments for BRD oGCD weaving then the gating wont be that bad.

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Also your numbers are... off, or confusing at least. Where was it discovered that the base crit modifier is 45%? Is this pre 2.0, post 3.0? You do realize that the Crit Damage formula was changed, and how Crit works is also changed, right? I guess I need more information from you to truly understand where you're coming from.

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Base Crit % = 5%
Base Crit Multiplier % = 45%

My example
40% Crit Rate with Straight Shot = 5% Base Crit, 10% from SS, 25% from Stats (+1056 Crit)
70% Multiplier = 45% Base Multi, 25% from Stats

Current BiS @ +480 Crit
26.4% Crit Rate with Straight Shot = 5% Base Crit, 10% from SS, 11.4 from Stats
56.4% Multiplier = 45% Base, 11.4% from Stats

Straight Shot = 5.6% damage increase

3.0 stat updates

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So you're right in that, BRD scaling is similar to 2.0, but I just wanted to emphasize how it is slightly different and will ramp up extremely quick.

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Finally, Ballad and Foe aren't necessary, depending on the composition. If you're overgearing content, Ballad becomes negligible, along with Paeon. If your group is three melee, 1 caster, then Foe becomes less useful as well and the addition of a Ninja, Summoner, or DRG bring additional utility that'll effect raid DPS just as much. However, I will say that Floor 1~4 caters to Bard in terms of longevity, as their songs very strong for fights like As2, As3, and As4.

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Sure, Bard songs are less useful if you are over gearing content, but then so is DPS, class balance, a 2nd healer, 7 other players. My wording could have been better, about party play and progression. I should have said specifically endgame. But, that hasn't really changed compared to 2.0 other than the addition of MCN, but their Turret skills aren't quite as strong, although more flexible.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

My Ninja is 198, I know what they go through. I don't think you read what I said correctly, as in I'm not asking for a TP adjustment for Bard, but rather for Straighter Shot to proc early so we don't waste TP using a 70 TP move twice in a row needlessly.

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I was not specifically answering to you but all the bards that think the class is the only one with issues when it is clear it's not ;)

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

I understand that much, I still feel Bard is scaling the same way as it did in 2.0 though - Songs are becoming less useful, we're still dealing 200~ish less than other jobs, even moreso in Turns like 2 (SMNs and BLMs destroy us). The Weapon Damage is still a problem imo.

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Sounds like the design SE wants. AFAIK the idea is you get 200 less dps for your "support songs" you're not supposed to do as much as other dps that have full kits for doing damage, even with 200 less dps bards can still do impressively high damage. My friend has a static where they cleared A3S with bard, mch, drg, and mch.

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Originally Posted by jmdude

Sounds like the design SE wants. AFAIK the idea is you get 200 less dps for your "support songs" you're not supposed to do as much as other dps that have full kits for doing damage, even with 200 less dps bards can still do impressively high damage. My friend has a static where they cleared A3S with bard, mch, drg, and mch.

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Except using said songs already reduce the damage on top of your inherently lower damage, so it's double dipping in a sense.

And honestly, SE has jumped between this and "they have better mobility" as reasoning for their lower damage doesn't help the fact either.

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Originally Posted by jmdude

Sounds like the design SE wants. AFAIK the idea is you get 200 less dps for your "support songs" you're not supposed to do as much as other dps that have full kits for doing damage, even with 200 less dps bards can still do impressively high damage. My friend has a static where they cleared A3S with bard, mch, drg, and mch.

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You do know the reason WHY bard dealt less damage was because they had movement/instant skills, now in 3.0 No movement/Caster bars now. The songs all ready come with a damage debuff % to it (was it 20%? or was it nerfed don't remember). Bards are more or less dealing 2.55's damage currently (percentage difference), because.. they gave up movement in favour of being a turret and having cast times to deal more damage? Doesn't help that all the pre 52 skills aren't designed around Wanderers minuet either (besides barrage).

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Originally Posted by Vinestra

Bards are more or less dealing 2.55's damage currently (percentage difference), because.. they gave up movement in favour of being a turret and having cast times to deal more damage?

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thats my main issue , we are dealing the same dmg (% wise) and lost movement... others job gained QOL changes and new fun mechanics / gameplay .....what we gained in HW? because it feels that we got nerfed (WM) and gained nothing in return....

30% dmg on the stance still we are in the same spot we were in 2.5 dmg wise... now we have cast bars tho :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

thats my main issue , we are dealing the same dmg (% wise) and lost movement... others job gained QOL changes and new fun mechanics / gameplay .....what we gained in HW? because it feels that we got nerfed (WM) and gained nothing in return....

30% dmg on the stance still we are in the same spot we were in 2.5 dmg wise... now we have cast bars tho :rolleyes:

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My issue is that the concept of cast bars itself adds nothing engaging to me (as a BRD who didn't move anyway during 2.0 anyway, this is nothing groundbreaking or revolutionary), but rather introduced new problems that come because of how the cast bars interact with BRD skills.

Double it up with the fact that they gave the same gimmick to MCH and now the two jobs play similar to each other because of it.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

My issue is that the concept of cast bars itself adds nothing engaging to me (as a BRD who didn't move anyway during 2.0 anyway, this is nothing groundbreaking or revolutionary), but rather introduced new problems that come because of how the cast bars interact with BRD skills.

Double it up with the fact that they gave the same gimmick to MCH and now the two jobs play similar to each other because of it.

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Atleast ONE of them was designed with the mechanic in mind.

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Originally Posted by twoheadedenby

I ran around "willy nilly" in 2.X not because I was an idiot doing it for the sake of it, but because with my latency if I was standing still and I started moving as soon as an AOE appeared I would still get hit by it.

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The problem with this is it is your latency causing the issue, not how they changed brd. If you can start moving just after seeing the indicator and still get hit that is on your end - it is your connection. That isn't a fundamental flaw with how they changed brd, especially when a melee DPS can say the same thing about getting one more hit in to keep up their GLIII or Huton effect.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

30% dmg on the stance still we are in the same spot we were in 2.5 dmg wise... now we have cast bars tho :rolleyes:

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Not quite, due to clunkiness. If they could work it out where either the clunkiness was corrected or adjusted some skills to compensate for that clunkiness we'd be back to where we were at 2.5 damage wise. Currently we are about 3% further behind than we used to be, even with the adjustment of 30% WM and -15% damage debuff with songs..we are still behind where we were at 2.5 in comparison when we should actually have gained and been about 12% behind instead of 15%. Instead we are about 18% behind at best, 20% at mediocre, and more at worse player skill.

Think about that for a moment - Songs used to be a -20% debuff when in use and are now -15% debuff. WM is a +30% buff to all damage and no Auto Attacks. This means that the changes over all don't compensate enough for the loss of Auto Attacks and actually causes us to be further behind then we used to be. Had they not changed (or over nerfed) Sidewinder we might have been about where we used to be if not a little further ahead.

I'm more concerned about that than I am mobility seeing as the mobility part of the argument is still moot and affects us very little. If they could make it to where the oGCD skills weren't clipping into the GCD skills this wouldn't be as much of an issue. We know they can do it, they know they can do it....the question is...why won't they? If they can make it so EA is on it's own independent CD apart from GCD, they can make it to where oGCD don't clip with GCD. It is similar to how they could remove the latency/clipping issue with Mudra, but thus far have refused to do so.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

thats my main issue , we are dealing the same dmg (% wise) and lost movement... others job gained QOL changes and new fun mechanics / gameplay .....what we gained in HW? because it feels that we got nerfed (WM) and gained nothing in return....

30% dmg on the stance still we are in the same spot we were in 2.5 dmg wise... now we have cast bars tho :rolleyes:

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Not sure how BRD can be where it was in 2.5. 50-60 brought

Empyreal Arrow 220 Potency @ 15s adjusted by Skill Speed (286 adjusted with WM)
Sidewinder 250 Potency buffed by dots (325 with WM)
Iron Jaw (huge gain - 580 Potency for 1 GCD VS 640 for 2 GCD - without counting the bonus from WM)
AOE potential with WM + RoD adjustment

I'm too lazy to figure out how much BRD increased with Potency/sec but it looks pretty nice, especially where multi dotting and AOE come in.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Not sure how BRD can be where it was in 2.5. 50-60 brought

Empyreal Arrow 220 Potency @ 15s adjusted by Skill Speed (286 adjusted with WM)
Sidewinder 250 Potency buffed by dots (325 with WM)
Iron Jaw (huge gain - 580 Potency for 1 GCD VS 640 for 2 GCD - without counting the bonus from WM)
AOE potential with WM + RoD adjustment

I'm too lazy to figure out how much BRD increased with Potency/sec but it looks pretty nice, especially where multi dotting and AOE come in.

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Youd have to factor in the damage loss from auto attacks, specifically, auto attacks that are paired with barrage, HE and B4B (which honestly, is more potent in the long run than our current barrage will ever be assuming equal gear, especially since each auto attack can crit)


Also for ironjaws, you'd have to take it outside of the vaccum of comparing the skill vs reapplying the two bites. TP issues aside, WB is 330, VN is 310, IJ is 580. But the latter is assuming you let all the ticks hit and you don't overshoot the refresh by a second (while at the same time not risking the drop).

And lastly with multi-dotting, this is really where the OGCD-Clipping can hurt you in regards to trying to catch all the procs and use your weaponskills. Compared to 2.0, your weaponskills will get pushedback/delayed at times because of overlapping oGCDs, espesically in regards to empyreal arrow that'll delay the cast of your next weaponskill no matter what if you use it right after a weaponskill. You won't be able to get your weaponskills in as it comes off cooldown is what I'm saying, which can lead to lower output outside of objectively looking at potency count.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I'm too lazy to figure out how much BRD increased with Potency/sec but it looks pretty nice, especially where multi dotting and AOE come in.

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This is about the only spot Brd has a significant increase over how it used to be, but on a single target this isn't true. Have to remember when factoring potency we have Passive traits that increase action damage by 10% and 20% as well as the +30% WM. Other jobs have skills that have potency of 300+ without factoring any additional traits or buffs in effect, so I'm sorry but all that did was act as a bandaid to a blemish. Covers up the problem, but doesn't really make it go away.

Another factor is that weapon damage as a whole for both brd and mch. We effectively hat 10% less weapon damage also in comparison to other physical DPS. Anyone who knows anything about the damage calculation formula knows this is the biggest deciding factor in damage output - IE getting that bow for 900 ESO is better than getting that body for 825 ESO.

Yet we are always 10% lower than any other physical DPS and still have lower potency skills on top of it. Thus there are many deciding factors as to why we have comparatively less output than any other job, but when SE codes clunkiness in and over nerfs attacks this only makes it far more noticable. Used to be this was a fair trade - consistent damage while avoiding mechanics that required a brd to play in this way at times. Now it isn't quite so seeing as they made us be a turret to 'gain' dps. If this were true then we'd have comparative damage to where we were at 2.5 without WM and increased damage while in WM as a trade off. I only bring this up as this was the main reason they nerfed the hell out of certain sub buffs for brd around 2.1. Everyone moaned and complained that brd was doing too much spike damage on top of mobility....now that isn't so and we are still being punished in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Not sure how BRD can be where it was in 2.5.

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Because everybody else also got increases to their damage. Additionally, Bards still get their 10% less WD inherent nerf and with bigger WD numbers, that's a bigger gap. When other classes had 58 in 2.x, BRDs had 52, a difference of 6. Now other classes are at 76, while Bards are at 68, a difference of 8. A Bard Gordian/upgraded Eso weapon has the same WD as a DRG's Bismarck weapon and less than a DRG's upgraded Law by 2 points.

Also, you didn't factor in the loss of auto-attacks under WM and change to Barrage. When calculating someone's relative damage, you can't just ignore the negatives and only put forth positives. You're also not factoring in the fact that in 2.x, BRD could have 100% uptime while fighting at full damage unless they needed to do mechanics that would stop them. Movement now demands either doing lower-damage instant attacks like Feint if it's only a short movement amount, or turning off 30% WD if it's longer.

So yes, if you ignore the objective removals of damage sources and ignore that every other class also got increases to their own damage and ignore that there's a widening gap in weapon damage and only focus on what Bards DID gain, then I guess it would look confusing how Bards aren't topping DPS charts.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Because everybody else also got increases to their damage. Additionally, Bards still get their 10% less WD inherent nerf and with bigger WD numbers, that's a bigger gap. When other classes had 58 in 2.x, BRDs had 52, a difference of 6. Now other classes are at 76, while Bards are at 68, a difference of 8. A Bard Gordian/upgraded Eso weapon has the same WD as a DRG's Bismarck weapon and less than a DRG's upgraded Law by 2 points.

Also, you didn't factor in the loss of auto-attacks under WM and change to Barrage. When calculating someone's relative damage, you can't just ignore the negatives and only put forth positives. You're also not factoring in the fact that in 2.x, BRD could have 100% uptime while fighting at full damage unless they needed to do mechanics that would stop them. Movement now demands either doing lower-damage instant attacks like Feint if it's only a short movement amount, or turning off 30% WD if it's longer.

So yes, if you ignore the objective removals of damage sources and ignore that every other class also got increases to their own damage and ignore that there's a widening gap in weapon damage and only focus on what Bards DID gain, then I guess it would look confusing how Bards aren't topping DPS charts.

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If the weapon damage difference stayed the same percentage wise as it was in 2.0, then that alone would not count for BRD's drop in damage compared to 2.5. Although you are right in the regard that BRD is the only class that had "lost" something (cant say the same for MCH since they didn't exist in 2.x, but the context is the same) that contributed to their damage previously. WM is not an objective increase in damage until you get the abilties attached to it, and it's certainly not a straight increase to output to the same extent the other jobs have.

I've always said that BRD's (and by extension, MCH) dps is still behind by "true dps" classes by the same percentage as it was back in 2.x to argue that WM doesn't "increase damage" anymore as the other jobs have with their new post-50 abilities. But at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if they're also doing less percentage wise compared to 2.x either due to oversights in the grand scheme of things (auto attacks, delaying weapon skills and oGCD clipping), because it was certainly the case in 3.05 and the buff from 20% to 30% is honestly just a bandaid fix if anything.