Cash shop confirmed

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Probably not.
This is how it usually starts. Small, simple, unintrusive. Then they slowly add more and more to get you acclimated. Before you know it, you got a full sized cash shop with all sorts of exclusive fanciful gear, mounts, minions and 'more' all for the low price of your subscription plus a few extra bucks you won't notice add up.

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yep, totally agree.

Just a bunch of alarmists if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Kyoraki

Odin Mount. We all knew it was coming eventually. And now it is, as a cash shop exclusive. And looking at Sqaure Enix's behaviour for the past entire console generation, is it really a wise idea to give the company the benefit of the doubt? It seems more and more that ARR was a fluke, not the company turning a new leaf.

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We didn't "know" Sleipnir was going to be implemented. We didn't "know" that it was going to be available via traditional means within FFXIV. It could have been a bonus item for preordering Heavensward, or a bonus item from attending a future Fan Festival.

Again, don't mistake this as a defense of the cash shop - I abhor its existence, and I think FFXIV will be all the worse for it. I don't plan on giving the title another shot, in part because the cash shop served as a last straw of sorts. If you're objective, though, you simply cannot argue against it in the way you've chosen. It's all speculation. You might feel that it's reasonable speculation, but there's not a shred of proof, and there likely never will be.

Edit / Addition: I do agree with your assessment that SE has given us numerous reasons not to trust them if you look at the company's behaviour over the last several years. This is one of the reasons why I suspect the cash shop will eventually morph beyond its current, vanity-only type of setup, though the progress will likely be slow. This just can't be used as objective evidence, not at the moment.

I don't think ARR was a fluke, either, because taken in context, I don't think the title was all that great even upon release. I, at least, excused a lot of flaws due to the fact that it was just being launched, but subsequent behaviour on SE's part has indicated to me the flaws may well have simply been bad design. It had its moments, sure, but a lot of stuff "looked good" only because it was brand new - and much of it hasn't survived the test of time terribly well, in my estimation.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

We didn't "know" Sleipnir was going to be implemented. We didn't "know" that it was going to be available via traditional means within FFXIV. It could have been a bonus item for preordering Heavensward, or a bonus item from attending a future Fan Festival.

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But we do have the following 3 options :

1. Believe it wasn't intended for cash shop and therefor was taken away from one of those traditional means of acquisition -or-
2. SE originally planned to have a cash shop and didn't tell players... in which case their lack of transparency makes the prospects for the shop more dubious
3. SE wasn't going to give out the mount, but decided to do so, only because they could get money out of it in the cash shop (again see #2 on transparency and intention for the shop)

None of these three options is exactly "good". Yet one has to be true.

Also, imo this could be equal to P2W if the shop has cooler stuff than what's in game. With story mode options... the only real reason to do high end content is for cool looking gear. Well, if the cash shop stuff has a cooler skin... then there's no point in high end stuff. The vanity looks cooler, so you wouldn't see that gear, anyway... and it's not necessary, since you have to beat the high end to get it... so it makes that kind of pointless. Just my opinion.

I am sure some would disagree... especially if they have titles or something that you could get, that the shop wouldn't have. Then that would be something visible.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Also, imo this could be equal to P2W if the shop has cooler stuff than what's in game.

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This game has 1 raid only and everything else is vanity but somehow vanity isn't that important...

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

It could have been a bonus item for preordering Heavensward, or a bonus item from attending a future Fan Festival.

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Or a prize from the odin fight we're getting soon which would be common sense.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

But we do have the following 3 options :

1. Believe it wasn't intended for cash shop and therefor was taken away from one of those traditional means of acquisition -or-
2. SE originally planned to have a cash shop and didn't tell players... in which case their lack of transparency makes the prospects for the shop more dubious
3. SE wasn't going to give out the mount, but decided to do so, only because they could get money out of it in the cash shop (again see #2 on transparency and intention for the shop)

None of these three options is exactly "good". Yet one has to be true.

Also, imo this could be equal to P2W if the shop has cooler stuff than what's in game. With story mode options... the only real reason to do high end content is for cool looking gear. Well, if the cash shop stuff has a cooler skin... then there's no point in high end stuff. The vanity looks cooler, so you wouldn't see that gear, anyway... and it's not necessary, since you have to beat the high end to get it... so it makes that kind of pointless. Just my opinion.

I am sure some would disagree... especially if they have titles or something that you could get, that the shop wouldn't have. Then that would be something visible.

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Edit: Adjusted argument.

Firstly, I would disagree somewhat with your initial contention that one of three options has to be true. The thinking is too black-and-white; for all we know, there's a reskinned Sleipnir mount planned as an in-game reward soon, and this was merely intended to be a promotional item for a business venture.

Either way, I don't view (2) and (3) as being "bad" so much as entirely irrelevant. Arguments surrounding the cash shop are best made when they focus on objective influences it will have on FFXIV, either positive or negative. How SE conducts themselves on the business level does not directly impact FFXIV. There is a possible indirect impact, but again, it's speculation. Arguments of this sort simply lead to mindless back-and-forth debate between people on either side - not exactly the definition of constructive.

On the other hand, your argument about the cash shop representing a P2W element for those who consider looking pretty as a significant component of "winning" - that's a powerful argument. That is indisputable. It doesn't depend upon some vague notion of a nefarious company out to exploit its users (vs. those on the other side who simply view it as being opportunistic). Those are the types of objective arguments that can be used effectively against the idea of a cash shop. Those contribute meaningfully to the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Edli

Or a prize from the odin fight we're getting soon which would be common sense.

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Quite possible, yes. It's also possible they're offering a reskinned Sleipnir mount for it as an alternative to the cash shop - we have no idea yet. Yet another reason why we can't exactly argue that content has been removed from the game for the purpose of the cash shop.

Honestaly now that i think about it, this cash shop is worse than WoW's cash shop.

They are taking seasonal items, that would otherwise have been available to buy for anyone that missed the event with gil, and putting them in the cash shop instead. This would be the same as if WoW took the brewfest mounts and removed them from the event and sold them in the cash shop instead. This just made me a little depressed :(

Wait isnt this (hypothetically) like WoW selling the old Brewfest mount from last year's fest while having the new one available in-game?

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Originally Posted by gorror

Honestaly now that i think about it, this cash shop is worse than WoW's cash shop.

They are taking seasonal items, that would otherwise have been available to buy for anyone that missed the event with gil

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Yoshida said it was only that way to allow the players who didn't play 1.0 to get it in the first event rotation once ARR is released as it was the first year of ARR post original FFXIV. It was never going to stay that way. It is in no way worse than WoW's cash shop. It is yoshida's fault though for caving in and giving people access to items to a version they never chose to play, so now people come to expect it :p They would have offered the ghost outfit (actually an ARR event item) if they planned on keeping that practice. This year, it's the Eerie gearset, next year it'll be something new and if you have the achievement you can buy it from the calamity salvager.

One thing I really enjoyed about this game over other MMORPGs is that even the implementation of something simple like a new emote or a minion had a little story quest associated with getting them.

It gave a little bit of context and immersion to something as basic as adding a new dance emote or a minion and I fear all that will be gone now that they can simply just slap them onto the cash shop instead of devoting development time to an unlock quest.

If that is to happen, I would prefer the game go free to play as it's no longer holds and immersive edge over games like Archeage, Guild Wars 2 or SWtoR.

I'm not overly against a cash shop, I just hope it isn't used in such a way as to cheapen the overall experience of playing what up until now is one of the most immersive MMOs on the market.

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Originally Posted by MortalWare

One thing I really enjoyed about this game over other MMORPGs is that even the implementation of something simple like a new emote or a minion had a little story quest associated with getting them.

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Oh dear, I hope they'll never make any emotes cash shop exclusive. For mounts and minions it's already happening, so I wouldn't be surprised.

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Originally Posted by MortalWare

One thing I really enjoyed about this game over other MMORPGs is that even the implementation of something simple like a new emote or a minion had a little story quest associated with getting them.

It gave a little bit of context and immersion to something as basic as adding a new dance emote or a minion and I fear all that will be gone now that they can simply just slap them onto the cash shop instead of devoting development time to an unlock quest.

If that is to happen, I would prefer the game go free to play as it's no longer holds and immersive edge over games like Archeage, Guild Wars 2 or SWtoR.

I'm not overly against a cash shop, I just hope it isn't used in such a way as to cheapen the overall experience of playing what up until now is one of the most immersive MMOs on the market.

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...Really? You realize the grand majority of minions and such are going to be achieved via the game still, right? How does the CS adding a few completely change everything? It definitely shouldn't go F2P just because of a few vanity things. =/ That's rather extreme.

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Originally Posted by Miya_Carbuncle

How does the CS adding a few completely change everything?

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Not like going F2P. But stablish the first step towards microtransactions for ingame items (which is diferent from services like fantasia or retainers) and eventually it can lead to a bigger and bigger movement of content for the game being moved behind a paywall. From now on, each update, will bring minions and mounts that could be ingame but now, they are going to be on cash shop, in the future even vanity gear that could be crafted will move behind a paywall and so forth. That is sad, that actually hurts the game.

From now on, everytime they do something cool for the game they will think "and if we put it on the cash shop?" and that changes everything. As from now on, will not be exclusively your gaming experience, skills, efforts, time and luck what decides what you got to make your character cooler, but a simple credit card microtransaction.

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Originally Posted by Miya_Carbuncle

...Really? You realize the grand majority of minions and such are going to be achieved via the game still, right? How does the CS adding a few completely change everything? It definitely shouldn't go F2P just because of a few vanity things. =/ That's rather extreme.

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For the most part every game that has added a cash shop starts out small, then expands. Every update will add more and more to the cash shop that could (would) have been available in game. Then there is always the risk of them pushing the envelope, and considering SE is a corporation that is interested in maximizing profits, they will.

This will eventually lead us to where wow has gotten, buying max level characters and xp/tombstone potions.

One of the many reasons i enjoyed this game was the fact that there was no cash shop, but now i will probably save my sub and just go to GW2.

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Originally Posted by gorror

For the most part every game that has added a cash shop starts out small, then expands. Every update will add more and more to the cash shop that could (would) have been available in game. Then there is always the risk of them pushing the envelope, and considering SE is a corporation that is interested in maximizing profits, they will.

This will eventually lead us to where wow has gotten, buying max level characters and xp/tombstone potions.

One of the many reasons i enjoyed this game was the fact that there was no cash shop, but now i will probably save my sub and just go to GW2.

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Let me add to this. Another thing that really really bothers me is something I call "cash equality". I pay ~$120 for a year's worth of FFXIV. When the cash shop keeps expanding, its likely I will be paying $120 or triple that for every item in the shop. On one hand we have all the content in FFXIV my $120 sub can buy and on the other we have the dozens of items that cost the same thing. Its madness!! It would be great if someone from SE could go on record as saying all the cash shop proceeds are going back into the development of FFXIV. In other words, if the dozens of items in the cash shop directly meant hours and hours of more content in FFXIV proper, I would be happy. Oh and fixing personal housing to make it truly personal. That would be good too.

Holy Echo Chamber Batman!

How about we wait for the thing to come out before we sharpen the torches and pitchforks?

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Originally Posted by Quesse

Let me add to this. Another thing that really really bothers me is something I call "cash equality". I pay ~$120 for a year's worth of FFXIV. When the cash shop keeps expanding, its likely I will be paying $120 or triple that for every item in the shop.

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Then SE succeeded - They're a business and they're making money...what's the problem? They're not your BFF from high school :p

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It would be great if someone from SE could go on record as saying all the cash shop proceeds are going back into the development of FFXIV.

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Business doesn't work that way - Money the company SE makes goes to:

- Development of projects in general
- Employee Paychecks
- Paying investors (depending on projects)
- Maintenance on their MMOs and other online services
- R&D
- Etc.

Your sub for XIV already doesn't 100% go to development of XIV, just like the billions FFXI made SE, they likely allocate money to other projects which is how a business works - especially software development.

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In other words, if the dozens of items in the cash shop directly meant hours and hours of more content in FFXIV proper,

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Ask yourself this question: What has the quality of 2.1 - 2.4 (soon) update been in your opinion? If you think it's been the best ever, the cash shop won't improve nor degrade that as that is how they plan the development of this game. If you find it to be..pretty meh, that's not going to change with a cash shop because it's up to Yoshida what the updates are like - they could have unlimited money and not 1 cent of it could go towards "extra development".

Wish the cash shop had special items like the ones GW2 has. Party boxes for your FC, LS, Friends that put up a table with food, ale barrel and such stuff
You can open those anywhere even in the open places so that all people can join

Also consumables that temporarily alter your appearance into something else, like random Eorzean monster

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Originally Posted by haseo0730

Wish the cash shop had special items like the ones GW2 has. Party boxes for your FC, LS, Friends that put up a table with food, ale barrel and such stuff
You can open those anywhere even in the open places so that all people can join

Also consumables that temporarily alter your appearance into something else, like random Eorzean monster

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SE is too busy adding more grind to add very many fun things like that unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Then SE succeeded - They're a business and they're making money...what's the problem? They're not your BFF from high school :p

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and

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Business doesn't work that way - Money the company SE makes goes to:

- Development of projects in general
- Employee Paychecks
- Paying investors (depending on projects)
- Maintenance on their MMOs and other online services
- R&D
- Etc.

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You are right in both respects, but your post acts as if the potential consumer doesn't have a valid right to criticize a company's pricing scheme. Just because it's a company's goal to make money, and just because they allocate their revenue according to their own decisions rather than those of the customer, doesn't mean we have to like / support the model we see.

Quesse is clearly one player, like myself, who would be a lot more receptive to the idea of a cash shop if we knew its proceeds were going to be used to improve FFXIV on top of the revenue already allocated to its continued maintenance. The concern about a few dozen vanity items in the cash shop costing as much as an entire year-long subscription to the game is also a valid one on the part of the consumer. We get a voice too - and we have every right to imply to SE that we're unhappy about, and/or planning to quit over, certain business decisions.

Critiquing a pricing scheme and shouting "OMG SLIPPERY SLOPEEEE!" are different things.

Plus, even if they said "All cash shop money is going right into FF14", people would just scream "OMG F2P!!".

There was a response from about cashshop: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ning_ceremony/

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• Now talking about vocal opinion of players of cash shop, especially some worried opinions
• Reiterates no pay to win
• Minions sold in cash shop? NOT EXCLUSIVE to cash shop (I think, he said ingame and I may have misunderstood)
• Using those funds to create more vanity/minions/etc. that won't just be cash shop-exclusive, or doing other things like adding the new EU datacenter. Want to use those profits to give back to the community

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Originally Posted by Zaero

Critiquing a pricing scheme and shouting "OMG SLIPPERY SLOPEEEE!" are different things.

Plus, even if they said "All cash shop money is going right into FF14", people would just scream "OMG F2P!!".

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Reread Quesse's original post that Tupsi was commenting on. Clearly it wasn't an "OMG SLIPPERY SLOPEEEE!" style of complaint.

Edit: I can't comment obviously on whether or not people would react to funds being reinvested in the way you indicated. You're also pointlessly generalizing a lot of calm and reasonable disagreements in a somewhat-insulting way, which adds absolutely nothing positive to the conversation. Most people who are concerned about the cash shop being a slippery slope for the game have stated their opinion calmly; not all of them, but most, and it's a valid concern. Similarly for those concerned about XIV becoming a F2P title (though I really haven't seen this crop up as much).

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Originally Posted by MiniTofu

There was a response from about cashshop: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ning_ceremony/

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Good info - hopefully SE releases something official soon in this regard. Still wouldn't make a difference for me personally, of course, but my issue with the cash shop (and multiple other aspects of the game) differ somewhat from the majority that I've seen posting in this thread. I think if this became an official announcement, it would greatly limit any theoretical loss of subscriptions that the cash shop might otherwise result in.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

Good info - hopefully SE releases something official soon in this regard. Still wouldn't make a difference for me personally, of course, but my issue with the cash shop (and multiple other aspects of the game) differ somewhat from the majority that I've seen posting in this thread. I think if this became an official announcement, it would greatly limit any theoretical loss of subscriptions that the cash shop might otherwise result in.

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it is an official announcement, it was said by Yoshi-P during the keynote for the London fanfest....not sure how much more "official" it can get

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Originally Posted by Erepio

it is an official announcement, it was said by Yoshi-P during the keynote for the London fanfest....not sure how much more "official" it can get

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Something posted to Lodestone or the forums rather than unofficial coverage on Reddit?

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

Something posted to Lodestone or the forums rather than unofficial coverage on Reddit?

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haha...so u saying that the HD livestream of the London keynote fanfest that streamed in the official ffxiv twich channel isnt official, isnt that pretty much like saying that the flying black chocobo or the new primals havent been announced cuse there is nothing on the lodestone or forums

Yeah, I would think Yoshi saying such at a live event like the fanfest is about as official as it gets.

If you want your official evidence, go pay for the premium stream and watch the keynote for London. Pretty sure Yoshi said, (again), at least two to three times, no pay to win.

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Originally Posted by Erepio

haha...so u saying that the HD livestream of the London keynote fanfest that streamed in the official ffxiv twich channel isnt official, isnt that pretty much like saying that the flying black chocobo or the new primals havent been announced cuse there is nothing on the lodestone or forums

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Originally Posted by BatHead

Yeah, I would think Yoshi saying such at a live event like the fanfest is about as official as it gets.

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For the purposes of calming fears about the cash shop being a profit grab, rather than something used to increase investment in FFXIV, no, this is decidedly not official enough. Most people are almost certainly not paying for a live stream or following the Fan Festivals that closely; news of a cash shop got larger dissemination because it's a big topic. A small piece of information tossed out a week later about wanting to reinvest the profits from it in FFXIV, while very meaningful, won't get the same publicity.

There's a difference between accurate information from an official source, and an official announcement. The latter requires, you know, actually broadcasting the information in a fairly visible way - which a Fan Festival stream is not going to accomplish. They need to put it on the Lodestone or the forums for this to have much of an impact on people who are angry about the cash shop.

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Originally Posted by Zohnax

If you want your official evidence, go pay for the premium stream and watch the keynote for London. Pretty sure Yoshi said, (again), at least two to three times, no pay to win.

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We weren't talking about P2W - the stance on that was well-known since the cash shop was first announced. Please read the posts next time before redirecting the conversation.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

We weren't talking about P2W - the stance on that was well-known since the cash shop was first announced. Please read the posts next time before redirecting the conversation.

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Go back two pages and read before trying to tell me what to say. The implications of, "slippery slope into Pay2Win," and, "might as well just go F2P," are there.

They made the initial announcement during the free stream in Las Vegas, and in the keynote again because so many people believe they can see the future, or think they work for SE, or want to pretend they're expert market analysts. So many people are ranting irrationally that it warranted a response to calm all the fears and assumptions people on these forums have been bombarding them with. The fact that you won't take multiple people coming forward about what was said, or people who took down a transcript of the official statement as fact enough, only shows how some of you only believe what you want to believe.

I believe the community is over-reacting. Most western players know "Cash Shop" as Pay-to-win. When its most likely only going to be a cash shop for Final Fantasy/ Square-Enix vanity stuff. Like a Tifa Lockhart costume to glamour or Laura Croft Costume. Sephiroth's weapon. The Buster Sword for glamour etc.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

I believe the community is over-reacting. Most western players know "Cash Shop" as Pay-to-win. When its most likely only going to be a cash shop for Final Fantasy/ Square-Enix vanity stuff. Like a Tifa Lockhart costume to glamour or Laura Croft Costume. Sephiroth's weapon. The Buster Sword for glamour etc.

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Most Western players know cash shop as pay to win? Most cash shops in international MMO's are vanity oriented only. So in that case I wonder where these western players are getting their knowledge from. Most are just needlessly crying wolf.

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Originally Posted by Zohnax

Go back two pages and read before trying to tell me what to say. The implications of, "slippery slope into Pay2Win," and, "might as well just go F2P," are there.

They made the initial announcement during the free stream in Las Vegas, and in the keynote again because so many people believe they can see the future, or think they work for SE, or want to pretend they're expert market analysts. So many people are ranting irrationally that it warranted a response to calm all the fears and assumptions people on these forums have been bombarding them with. The fact that you won't take multiple people coming forward about what was said, or people who took down a transcript of the official statement as fact enough, only shows how some of you only believe what you want to believe.

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Then reference a quote next time. Responding without one indicates you were joining the current conversation - decidedly not about P2W or a slippery slope.

Either way, I agree with you - many people are ranting and concerned. It's spread well beyond these forums; announcements of a cash shop have appeared all over the place. Many people are upset over this; some have quite reasonable fears, regardless of what SE says for now, and many do not. This does indeed warrant a response to calm what fears they can. What you're somehow missing is the fact that dropping another line at another Fan Festival does not warrant an effective response, simply from a marketing standpoint. It won't reach enough people. They need to post on Lodestone or these forums - in an official announcement - which is what I've been saying the past few posts (a fact you clearly failed to grasp).

As an aside, discussing my willingness to accept information here is the height of ignorance. I never once questioned the authenticity of the information others provided, which you'd see if you bothered reading with an open mind.

In regards to the "slippery slope" type discussions, or Yoshi-P's statements about the cash shop never becoming P2W - you're right, a lot of people aren't buying what Yoshi-P is saying. That's their choice. It's not an entirely unreasonable position, either; they aren't questioning SE's honesty so much as the fact that changing circumstances might change their mind. Either way, that's a bit of a tangent.

This will be the last post I make in response to your particular claims, either way. You are behaving in a combative fashion, not bothering to read previous statements I have made, and are ascribing to me beliefs that I do not have (nor indicated anywhere). My sole point is that a statement from an official source does not constitute an official announcement. Anyone with an elementary understanding of marketing understands the difference between the two, and why in this case, SE's response has been a little bit too weak. Whether they correct that or not is entirely up to them, and I couldn't care less which they choose.

Edit / Addition:

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

I believe the community is over-reacting. Most western players know "Cash Shop" as Pay-to-win. When its most likely only going to be a cash shop for Final Fantasy/ Square-Enix vanity stuff. Like a Tifa Lockhart costume to glamour or Laura Croft Costume. Sephiroth's weapon. The Buster Sword for glamour etc.

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I agree to an extent, at least as it applies to the people fearing the game will become a P2W type of affair. I suspect this probably won't happen, or certainly won't happen for many years.

That said, a lot of people are opposed for reasons other than a "slippery slope" type of argument. For instance, I'm personally opposed because I don't like a large focus on vanity and accessibility in my MMOs, primarily because I dislike the type of community that such a focus attracts. Hence, I'll play something else - the cash shop was sort of a "final straw" for me in this regard. There are other reasons to be opposed, of course. Not everyone is overreacting, is my point - they just hold different opinions about what they want from an MMO.

After what Yoshi said today, I withdraw any opposition I had to the idea.

I think most people's concerns is that the current pay shop for is setting precedent to possible pay to win mechanics. 1st its just vanity, then its items to boost exp (exists if you get CE or refer a friend) etc.

It's a slippery slope . only time will tell how the cash shop turns out.

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Originally Posted by MiniTofu

There was a response from about cashshop: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ning_ceremony/

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Well who would have thought, people panicked and went "Fear mongering and the world is ending mode" for no reason.

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Originally Posted by BatHead

Yeah, I would think Yoshi saying such at a live event like the fanfest is about as official as it gets.

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Not gaurenteed. Some confidence in the community has been shaken since comments he made about personal housing proved to be false.

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Originally Posted by MortalWare

Not gaurenteed. Some confidence in the community has been shaken since comments he made about personal housing proved to be false.

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..well and there are plenty of gamers that have actually played other games and been in this genre for years that have seen this happen repeatedly. It's not the first game to intro a cash shop and say it won't be P2W.

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Originally Posted by charlemagne

After what Yoshi said today, I withdraw any opposition I had to the idea.

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Yup me too. Minions not exclusive to the cash shop. Hopefully the omission of the word 'mount' was an oversight.