What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Not trying to disagree, but I felt like the point of that was to freak us out, not endear us to him.

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its okay if you disagree, I know a majority will its just how i feel about it dont feel bad if u disagree. In storys where people come in from different aspects we will all have different views and feelings to things. I just wish the devs could see and understand that and allow us ALL to have an experience for how we feel even if its a meaningless box, if u know its something like with zenos a option would be nice to have

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I've always felt that a good compromise for any given dialogue option would be to split things into at least three choices. One would be positive, one negative and the third indifferent. If need be we could have a fourth for a joke option, though the lack of dirty jokes similar to those present in the ARR era have caused me to roll my eyes when the game's newer 'humour' comes into play. It's very safe and inoffensive.

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i agree completely that that sentiment

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I've always felt that a good compromise for any given dialogue option would be to split things into at least three choices. One would be positive, one negative and the third indifferent. If need be we could have a fourth for a joke option, though the lack of dirty jokes similar to those present in the ARR era have caused me to roll my eyes when the game's newer 'humour' comes into play. It's very safe and inoffensive.

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What’s funny is that’s usually how it’s supposed to go i think. However the one time bias became blatantly obvious was in 5.3 with Elidibus, where both dialogue options we have towards him are inherently negative. Which came off as extremely strange to me(and another reason why i think 5.3 is the worst story patch), because we have the dialogue option in SB to “accept” Zenos. Yet for some reason at the end of 5.3, even after all we’ve learned of the ancients and their struggles, our only two options are basically your people are dead, get over it, i’m gonna kill you next.

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

its okay if you disagree, I know a majority will its just how i feel about it dont feel bad if u disagree. In storys where people come in from different aspects we will all have different views and feelings to things. I just wish the devs could see and understand that and allow us ALL to have an experience for how we feel even if its a meaningless box, if u know its something like with zenos a option would be nice to have

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Honestly, no. I can't get behind that. Not for Zenos. I liked him in StB because he was just a crazy antagonist. It was easy to enjoy his presence because he was simply an obstacle. This story showed more of his character and gave him the smallest amount of growth and very strongly solidified that all he wants is to fight with his life on the line while also putting someone else's life on the line. That's not a character I want to have a chance of having a nice sit down with, that's someone I want to destroy. Additionally if you pick the middle dialogue option with him he continues to assume you are denying "what we are" and if you pick the third option he is just happy that you want to kill him. The dude is messed up and I don't want him coming back at all.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I've always felt that a good compromise for any given dialogue option would be to split things into at least three choices. One would be positive, one negative and the third indifferent. If need be we could have a fourth for a joke option, though the lack of dirty jokes similar to those present in the ARR era have caused me to roll my eyes when the game's newer 'humour' comes into play. It's very safe and inoffensive.

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Yep, it really annoys me whenever someone the game has deemed a "villain" turns up and I am only given two or three negative options to respond to them with. Same with my only being able to respond with three different versions of the positive to those deemed to be "heroes". When Zenos showed up at the end I was laughing so hard at the absurdity of the moment and was, frankly, happy to see him. At least this was someone I knew wouldn't be a handicap in a fight like the Scions are. Yet all I can say is "I don't want your help!" and "If it comes to it, I won't save you" Nyaaaaahhh. Where's my option to say "Hey, thanks, we can settle our differences later"? Or when I was forced to kill Emet-Selch where was my option to say "I understand why you are doing this and I wish it didn't have to end this way". Always forced to be combative and never empathetic when it actually matters.

Beginning to think that maybe it's time I focused on single-player games where I can at least imagine that my character has a bit more agency when it comes to development.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Honestly, no. I can't get behind that. Not for Zenos. I liked him in StB because he was just a crazy antagonist. It was easy to enjoy his presence because he was simply an obstacle. This story showed more of his character and gave him the smallest amount of growth and very strongly solidified that all he wants is to fight with his life on the line while also putting someone else's life on the line. That's not a character I want to have a chance of having a nice sit down with, that's someone I want to destroy. Additionally if you pick the middle dialogue option with him he continues to assume you are denying "what we are" and if you pick the third option he is just happy that you want to kill him. The did is messed up and I don't want him coming back at all.

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okay ill give u example although it vexs me, In wow everyone gives sylvanas shit for actions but personally and for many people we can relate to her character after we learn all her story both her and her story attachs to people.

What i hate and what angers me about both players and devs is they ignore the fact some of us who play have struggles mental health or very similar to certain characters are outcast and when you just sum it up to THIS GUY IS CRAZY LETS KILL HIM and ignore everything and even little hits about things.. it just annoys the shit out of me

For me it wasnt enough death in the story. I felt HW and SHB had more death and consequences than EW. The pacing was ok and music was great. But everytime they made it seem like something was high risk or had serious consequences they make everything ok and only throw away characters that we dont even meet get killed off.

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

honestly i enjoyed it personally, I know alot of people hate him but on many levels i understand and feel for him the most.. and i wi

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I found him really dull during SHB, but I enjoyed Zenos in SB and I thought his final fight was about as good as he was going to get. I don't tend to fawn over him as the "mirror" (to the player - it's pretty forced, IMO) character in the way some people do, and I didn't think the philosophical stances he took were the most coherent, but stripping away the "mirror" stuff, I think if he was properly executed as a character and not competing with so many other antagonists and big themes, I would probably have enjoyed him more. He was at least a break from all the saccharine moments in EW.

I like the aesthetic of darkness in the game - part of why I like the Ascians and Voidsent so much, and why I wish we could've been given more of a chance to interact with Zodiark beyond his defeat, and I liked Zenos's edgy aesthetics too. He looks somewhat off to me, and admittedly they did a better job of rendering his model in Dissidia, but they fixed some of that in EW. I'm one of those people who likes the trope of a protagonist with the typical anime "villain" demeanour and flashiness, so I sometimes get annoyed at Yoshi's insistence of the WoL being a goody-two-shoes type... although I hope RPR will begin to break that barrier.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Honestly, no. I can't get behind that. Not for Zenos. I liked him in StB because he was just a crazy antagonist. It was easy to enjoy his presence because he was simply an obstacle. This story showed more of his character and gave him the smallest amount of growth and very strongly solidified that all he wants is to fight with his life on the line while also putting someone else's life on the line. That's not a character I want to have a chance of having a nice sit down with, that's someone I want to destroy. Additionally if you pick the middle dialogue option with him he continues to assume you are denying "what we are" and if you pick the third option he is just happy that you want to kill him. The did is messed up and I don't want him coming back at all.

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Yeah, I agree with that as well. He's no real mirror to the character, and even if you take him as one to the player, it's not something that necessarily works. As Theodric said, more options on that front would've helped.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

What’s funny is that’s usually how it’s supposed to go i think. However the one time bias became blatantly obvious was in 5.3 with Elidibus, where both dialogue options we have towards him are inherently negative. Which came off as extremely strange to me(and another reason why i think 5.3 is the worst story patch), because we have the dialogue option in SB to “accept” Zenos. Yet for some reason at the end of 5.3, even after all we’ve learned of the ancients and their struggles, our only two options are basically your people are dead, get over it, i’m gonna kill you next.

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The goal there was to have the player emulate Emet-Selch, even as they came to understand Elidibus and the Ascians better, but the entire thing ended up feeling unduly petty, IMO. I didn't care for it, either, when we're able to take a sympathetic approach to less sympathetic antagonists.

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Originally Posted by Nekokaori

okay ill give u example although it vexs me, In wow everyone gives sylvanas shit for actions but personally and for many people we can relate to her character after we learn all her story both her and her story attachs to people.

What i hate and what angers me about both players and devs is they ignore the fact some of us who play have struggles mental health or very similar to certain characters are outcast and when you just sum it up to THIS GUY IS CRAZY LETS KILL HIM and ignore everything and even little hits about things.. it just annoys the shit out of me

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I want to be very clear. When a character has done a bad thing and then I learn a reason for them doing that bad thing, I don't forgive them for it. The bad thing is still bad. If they can maybe get a redemption arc I can potentially be ok with them, but they would need to very carefully redeem that bad action. Urienger is an example of this for me. I hated that he kept lying to us and going behind our backs. I was really happy that we got to actually explore that frustration in EW cause that dude has been driving me crazy since the end of HW.

Zenos has a backstory very similar to an abused child. I know that, and it's very disturbing. I can feel bad for him off that, but it in no way forgives his actions at all. He wants to kill people and have fun doing so. I have no ability to empathize with that. Also if you'd like to talk about mental health struggles, the body hijack could very easily be seen as a sexual assault scenario. I'm really not interested in entertaining the idea of having a date with him.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Where's my option to say "Hey, thanks, we can settle our differences later"? Or when I was forced to kill Emet-Selch where was my option to say "I understand why you are doing this and I wish it didn't have to end this way". Always forced to be combative and never empathetic when it actually matters.

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Even Preach was asking why he couldn't respond with, "Let's get a drink after this!" to Zenos.

The thing that bothers me most about the dialog options for Emet and Elidibus is that for Hermes, the person responsible for the Final Days and one of the biggest arses in the series, we get to say, "Next time we'll find it together." It wasn't until EW we got to say sorry to Elidibus and I'm blanking on when we get to say anything to Emet that isn't us being a smart aleck or just looking sad.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Urienger is an example of this for me. I hated that he kept lying to us and going behind our backs. I was really happy that we got to actually explore that frustration in EW cause that dude has been driving me crazy since the end of HW.

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I can't stand Urianger because of this. He would've been kicked off my team and yet I'm forced to endlessly put up with his duplicity.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

I want to be very clear. When a character has done a bad thing and then I learn a reason for them doing that bad thing, I don't forgive them for it. The bad thing is still bad. If they can maybe get a redemption arc I can potentially be ok with them, but they would need to very carefully redeem that bad action. Urienger is an example of this for me. I hated that he kept lying to us and going behind our backs. I was really happy that we got to actually explore that frustration in EW cause that dude has been driving me crazy since the end of HW.

Zenos has a backstory very similar to an abused child. I know that, and it's very disturbing. I can feel bad for him off that, but it in no way forgives his actions at all. He wants to kill people and have fun doing so. I have no ability to empathize with that. Also if you'd like to talk about mental health struggles, the body hijack could very easily be seen as a sexual assault scenario. I'm really not interested in entertaining the idea of having a date with him.

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and that is an acceptable view point, I dont agree but i understand how u feel with it. All I'm saying is they need to stop only seeing that single point of view and accept some of may see differently and giving us a option to give our reaction with how we view, is a reasonable request..

Personally if someone is hurt by someone I believe they have every right to massacre everyone of them like niddhog had that right