What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Its not a point that I'm "missing" its a point the game directly addresses and gives no reason to argue with. If you don't like the reasons the game gives then fine, sure, but they exist and if we are going to discuss what the text is saying then we have to grapple with it. Either you have a good reason to believe that Venat was wrong and that she was so unwilling to abide by other solutions so as to commit to the sundering (an act we know she didn't want to do follow through on) or you don't. I've tried my best to show that the text gives reasons why these options wouldn't work and why the characters in the story don't act on them. But to me, the text is clear.

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You've already tried to "prove" things from literal interpretations from text that missed the mark in some way or another. You've taken casual conversation like IRREFUTABLE PROOF THAT THIS IS HOW IT 1000000% OF THE TIMES THINGS HAPPENED, converting them into absolute truths. Remember Y'shtola's speech to the Ea in Ultima Thule? Open your mind, think of possibilities and reach your own conclussions rather than fixate on the precise wording they used or letting the writer convince you of every literal thing they write.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I'm pretty sure my fridge doesn't run on me yelling obscenities at it.

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I'll try one last time: Dynamis is energy... the flower has a reaction to it... the reaction consumes energy... that's why it changes color... it doesn't say "oh hey dynamis, nice day we're having, please continue your course" without consuming it because that's what REACTIONS with ENERGY do.

If you still don't get it I give up. This is like the Patrick meme.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

With what ship and what aether. You think Hydaelyn sat in the aetherial sea gathering aether for shits and giggles?

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Hello, creation magics? They didn't have to invent rocket engines when they can create a familiar to fly... like Meteion... or a primal like Zodiark... And I know you want to yell about Hermes-senpai being instrumental in his creation but that was just because the job of our Zodiark was to refill those celestial currents he knew about, which aren't needed to just go and blast her with aether.

Also, put a few millions of ancients collecting aether together and you may have in mere days what it took her a million years to collect. And you said she wouldn't have collected that much dynamis by that point so she was weaker, so not that much aether would be necessary to defeat her.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

That wasn't Her power though. That was the aether that gathered in the aetherial sea, which She refused to partake of so we would have enough.

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So even less reason to take "how many years it took her" as a measure of anything.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

How would they get there. If there's a single piece of dialogue suggesting how they should do so, knowing the limitations of their control of dynamis and the fact that by this point she already has innumerable sisters on innumerable worlds, how would you even get to Ultima.

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But I thought you said she wasn't strong enough in dynamis and that's why she couldn't pierce Zodiark's barrier nor transform a single ancient? And I don't know what you're getting at with the "innumerable sisters on innumerable world". Did anyone attack us before reaching Ultima Thule? And this "limitations of their control of dynamis" talk got very tiresome long ago because we've said how they didn't need to do it themselves, they could have made familiars.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

"You don't need Frodo to carry the ring, just get the eagles to carry him! Easy solution you dumb old wizard!"

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Exactly! Create eagle entelechies to carry some aether bombs and drop them on her face. See, I knew you could think of other solutions by yourself!

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

So in summary, the Ascians manipulated a world too well, failed to cause a rejoining and led to a flood of darkness that consumed the 13th and an imbalance of light on the 1st.

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I don't even know where you're going. Ascian machinations backfiring are one thing, that doesn't take away the fact that humanity wasn't meant to be wiped away in their calamities so the merit in surviving them is... not that impressive?

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I… I genuinely can’t tell if people think she actually intended to kill us there or not, you’re joking about it right?

Right?

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On this I'll actually agree, that's taking it a bit too far. I think she just intended to KO us.

9/14 sundered, perilously thin on aether in comparison to an Ancient even after Hades charged us up, and still capable of guarding against Venat's strongest attack and running her ragged.

The unsundered Azem must of been an absolute monster in combat.

I still want to get a gundam boss fight where we punch monsters like Pacific Rim while the scions cheer from the background about us using the seed.

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Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

We were looking for Hermes in this quest . Literally what else could she mean by saying she meant to finish it ?This was right after we told emet what he did in the future. I believer she didn’t trust us. If she had succeeded in killing us when we were in the past, we wouldn’t have been alive to go back to the future and time loop would’ve been meaningless . This is quite plainly how I took the sentence . If they meant something else, they should’ve worded it better.

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I'm pretty sure she meant finish the fight.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

9/14 sundered, perilously thin on aether in comparison to an Ancient even after Hades charged us up, and still capable of guarding against Venat's strongest attack and running her ragged.

The unsundered Azem must of been an absolute monster in combat.

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Not necessarily. Thanks to dynamis, you can say the MC can do pretty much anything as long as their feelings are strong enough. It explains impossible feats of strength. Kinda lame if you ask me, but it's there now.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Not necessarily. Thanks to dynamis, you can say the MC can do pretty much anything as long as their feelings are strong enough. It explains impossible feats of strength. Kinda lame if you ask me, but it's there now.

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Nahh, Azem would totally solo Meteion at minimum ilvl and no Soul Crystal as a Culinarian.

Without a main hand tool at that.

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Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

We were looking for Hermes in this quest . Literally what else could she mean by saying she meant to finish it ?This was right after we told emet what he did in the future. I believer she didn’t trust us. If she had succeeded in killing us when we were in the past, we wouldn’t have been alive to go back to the future and time loop would’ve been meaningless . This is quite plainly how I took the sentence . If they meant something else, they should’ve worded it better.

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Do you guys...not know what sparring is? Like...at all? Do you think Venat tries to kill everybody she spars with, including Azem? My lord.

"finish it" = I aimed to knock you down/out or otherwise make you concede.

And no, she didn't try to sunder us during that fight. What incredulous nonsense.

To be fair, I think it's completely understandable for some people to read into Venat's duel in such a manner. She's clearly been painted as a very unwell and unstable character elsewhere in the story.

Let's not forget that we're talking about a character who decided to stand by and allow for the Final Days to happen despite having information that could have helped prevent or at least mitigate the event itself. In addition, Venat then decided to inflict genocide upon every man, woman and child amongst the Ancients - essentially wiping out her own people and civilisation. To say nothing of then declaring herself to be a 'supreme deity' and judging herself to be the only individual worthy of bearing wings.

One could also suggest that she was always possessed by a smug sense of self importance, especially since the way in which she describes her adventuring is very different to Emet-Selch's much more humble stance.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

To be fair, I think it's completely understandable for some people to read into Venat's duel in such a manner. She's clearly been painted as a very unwell and unstable character elsewhere in the story.

Let's not forget that we're talking about a character who decided to stand by and allow for the Final Days to happen despite having information that could have helped prevent or at least mitigate the event itself. In addition, Venat then decided to inflict genocide upon every man, woman and child amongst the Ancients - essentially wiping out her own people and civilisation. To say nothing of then declaring herself to be a 'supreme deity' and judging herself to be the only individual worthy of bearing wings.

One could also suggest that she was always possessed by a smug sense of self importance, especially since the way in which she describes her adventuring is very different to Emet-Selch's much more humble stance.

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She buys right into the notion of herself as some manner of messianic figure, after all.

Idk about you but if Zodiark still being incomplete was the final boss, would've been well boring because we all expected it. Its kind of like when people are mad comic book stories aren't exactly the same in movies. If you went in to a comic movie and everything was the same as the comics, you'd expect everything and know what the outcome would be. No difference here. Most people expected we would either fight both Hydaelyn and Zodiark or just Zodiark at the end, because hes been the big bad all this time, but again he was incomplete and still sundered. Now if the story was different and the rejoinings all actually happened and he was complete, would've been a completely different ball game. Idk I think Endsinger was a good final boss. Because it means in the grand scheme of things even Primal, not even the eldest of them are the most deadly threats out there in the universe. So they can really play around with that.

I found it rather hard to consider the Endsinger to be a 'deadly threat' when the entirety of the second phase consisted of awkwardly flailing about as a bunch of characters who have consistently been given everything they desired throughout the story proclaim that they've endured 'so much'.

It's a particularly strange claim when one looks at what the likes of the Garleans and Ancients have endured by comparison, through no fault of their own. Though the game has long since pretended as if that character with the weird half-shaved hair - Moenbryda? - is as devastating a loss as someone losing literally every single friend and family member they have ever known. Not that it's a competition, though there is most definitely differing degrees of traumatic events to consider...

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Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

The thing is "finish the fight" can have multiple meanings. Imagine some of the players whose native language is spanish or portugese. I'm not sure if the blame is on the translation team or the writers, but that sentence does not paint venat in a good lighting either way.

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Can't speak for all of us, but I understood that line perfectly clear. I'm not on board with Venat's plan 100% but this is silly levels of pedantry.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Not necessarily. Thanks to dynamis, you can say the MC can do pretty much anything as long as their feelings are strong enough. It explains impossible feats of strength. Kinda lame if you ask me, but it's there now.

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I'd say that's probably an answer along the right lines (since it isn't always enough), but even so she wasn't as potent as either of Hades (required 8 champions plus loads of lightwarden light - I'm discounting Elidibus because he had primal aspects to him), and even in Pandaemonium, Themis has to "clone" you aetherically using his magic to be able to contend with some of the things in there, so there's limits to what it can do. She does remark on the unsundered MC astounding her with their strength, so I take it both they and Hades were ancients of particularly great power. To a degree I think she is looking at it in terms of aether alone (rather than some asspull-y muh feelz power), and being complimentary on account of that.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I found it rather hard to consider the Endsinger to be a 'deadly threat' when the entirety of the second phase consisted of awkwardly flailing about as a bunch of characters who have consistently been given everything they desired throughout the story proclaim that they've endured 'so much'.

It's a particularly strange claim when one looks at what the likes of the Garleans and Ancients have endured by comparison, through no fault of their own. Though the game has long since pretended as if that character with the weird half-shaved hair - Moenbryda? - is as devastating a loss as someone losing literally every single friend and family member they have ever known. Not that it's a competition, though there is most definitely differing degrees of traumatic events to consider...

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While I understand that they tried to do the whole FFIV thing where the party members we left behind pray for our victory from afar...it can have less impact if you're someone that just doesn't feel that strongly about them.

The second phase of the fight is also poorly designed. At that point we've already beaten it, there's no reason for it to last as long as it does.

Also big agree on the whole Moenbryda thing-her and Haurchefant were just sort of there, then not there for me and I was surprised to see how emotionally invested others were in these characters when there were more interesting people around.

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Originally Posted by Plasma711

Idk about you but if Zodiark still being incomplete was the final boss, would've been well boring because we all expected it. Its kind of like when people are mad comic book stories aren't exactly the same in movies. If you went in to a comic movie and everything was the same as the comics, you'd expect everything and know what the outcome would be. No difference here. Most people expected we would either fight both Hydaelyn and Zodiark or just Zodiark at the end, because hes been the big bad all this time, but again he was incomplete and still sundered. Now if the story was different and the rejoinings all actually happened and he was complete, would've been a completely different ball game. Idk I think Endsinger was a good final boss. Because it means in the grand scheme of things even Primal, not even the eldest of them are the most deadly threats out there in the universe. So they can really play around with that.

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Personally, I think it would've also been a nice subversion if we didn't fight him at all. Throw the WoL into the pilot seat, even. Imagine some big bombastic G-Warrior like duty where we fly through space as Him... maybe spin the platform around on the Endsinger until she vomits and passes out. :^)

"All in creation, bent to my will!"

Spins Ultima Thule like a Merry-go-round

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Personally, I think it would've also been a nice subversion if we didn't fight him at all. Throw the WoL into the pilot seat, even. Imagine some big bombastic G-Warrior like duty where we fly through space as Him... maybe spin the platform around on the Endsinger until she vomits and passes out. :^)

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Would've made for a more fun gimmicky encounter for me than that end fight with Zenos, to get to play primal for once and soften her up, and later just do a token trial to swat her like a bug.

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Personally, I think it would've also been a nice subversion if we didn't fight him at all. Throw the WoL into the pilot seat, even. Imagine some big bombastic G-Warrior like duty where we fly through space as Him... maybe spin the platform around on the Endsinger until she vomits and passes out. :^)

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Man, the lack of Cid participation in all that hurts.
Even an Ultra G-Warrior that could be used briefly would have been hype... (of course not as boring as the Sapphire Weapon fight)

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

While I understand that they tried to do the whole FFIV thing where the party members we left behind pray for our victory from afar...it can have less impact if you're someone that just doesn't feel that strongly about them.

The second phase of the fight is also poorly designed. At that point we've already beaten it, there's no reason for it to last as long as it does.

Also big agree on the whole Moenbryda thing-her and Haurchefant were just sort of there, then not there for me and I was surprised to see how emotionally invested others were in these characters when there were more interesting people around.

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If nothing else, if the game is going to go all out with the fanservice then I want it to do it across the board. I care very little for the Scions but there are plenty of characters elsewhere that I like, both in terms of antagonists and protagonists.

I'd have appreciated Nabriales getting a mention. Yes, he killed Moenbryda (back in the days when a character screeching and recklessly charging headfirst towards an enemy would result in the logical consequence) but given that we've since learned what, exactly, he was fighting for then you'd think he'd get some proper closure.

Equally, I was waiting a long time for something to come of Regula's sacrifice and final words but there was never any option to bring him up during the peace talks with Varis and the game conveniently forgets that the pair had a friendship together that spanned decades. Which makes it a bit more of a meaningful relationship when compared to Haurchefant and the player character. He's an Elezen who knew the adventurer for...a few weeks or months at most, given how little time passes between events in the story and even then it can be argued as to how much of his 'sad sacrifice' was about him being honourable and how much of it was due to his obsessive crush upon the player character.

I suppose it's another reason why I didn't like Endwalker. The game skimped on bringing back so many characters, even in passing. The game is constantly pushing the very 'safe' characters who all conveniently agree with one another and the characters with more depth to them are either ignored after their initial appearance or quietly shuffled off into side-content.

Makes you wonder what the rest of the surviving sundered Ascians are up to. Maybe Travanchet's been vibing in Costa Del Sol all along drinking fruit smoothies after messing around with the people that built Alexander.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

She buys right into the notion of herself as some manner of messianic figure, after all.

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It's easy to become a god when you've been given a roadmap to the future and sunder all else in creation to be a fraction of the power you wield. I still maintain that (without EW's gaslighting) Venat reads as a villain.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I still maintain that (without EW's gaslighting) Venat reads as a villain.

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Oh, absolutely. She's very much a villain to the Ancients given what the consequences of her actions resulted in but it could easily be argued that she is a villain in the eyes of at least some of the Sundered, too, since if the truth surrounding their existence was to be known I rather suspect many would have some colourful words to say in response. Somehow I doubt that the typical peasant struggling with a life of poverty, disease and poor harvests would have the same callous indifference to Venat's actions as the Scions who are lucky enough to have the world's most powerful fighter at their beck and call in addition to most prominent world leaders.

How convenient, then, that the average inhabitant of Etheirys is not privy to such revelations and likely never will be.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The second phase of the fight is also poorly designed. At that point we've already beaten it, there's no reason for it to last as long as it does.

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I really want to appreciate the fight, but it's hard to do so when it's such a visual vomit. Almost everything are distracting to me. From the swirling background, the boss being so big you can't properly see her, the rotating sigil on the edge of the arena, to the boss attacks themselves (a lot of them are bright explosions).

And yes, phase two being that long is such a weird thing. Thordan also did flail around (and interestingly ignore the aggro list), but it was done near the end. Meanwhile meteion start doing that at what? 30-40% health? I get that they want us to look badass, but c'mon.

At least make her not the easiest boss fight please.....

Honestly? I don't think I can't like/dislike Endwalker without doing the same for Shadowbringers. Whether it's narrative resources, pacing or cliches, both expansions commit the same mistakes/achievements (depending on the eye of the beholder) and they win or lose under a single standard. It seems funny to me that people is already having their nostalgia bout in just the next expansion without realizing that the flaws they point out in Endwalker can also be found in the expansion they revere (Shadowbringers). I do like them both. They're fairly cohesive and have their fair share of twists and emotional moments. They're not a 400IQ only story, but they get to draw the player in, which is more than can be said about other MMOs or game stories.

But these kinds of post are hit or miss for me, because cases of disliking the story can easily turn into "it's not my headcanon so it's bad" and there are several instances here to prove it. And I'm one of the few that didn't really think Hydaelyn was or is a villain, or at least, not when compared to her Amaurotian counterparts. Even when she sunders Zodiark, she does seem to understand the guilt of having the sundered be more imperfect and prone to disgraces far more than Amaurotians/Ascians having any regard towards lifes considered inferior to them when they not only aim to sacrifice a whole planet life to reunite with their loved ones once, but twice and with absolutely no remorse. Not to mention many wars and disgraces that take place in the shards and source happen BECAUSE of the ascians. Obviously, any description of her by the Ascian is going to be bad, the same way the tale we tell to Hythlodaeus, Venat and Emet will obviously depict future Emet as a megalomaniacal madman (any sundered would've thought the same). Each one's point of view is bound to influence the narrative they spin. For any Amaurotian, the Ascians mision to restore the unsundered world would make all the sense. For any sundered, some powerful entities genociding millions of their peers will be nothing short of evil, regardless of their purpose (except for Varis, who quickly gets the backlash for it when he spouts his PoV) and stopping them would be completely commendable.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

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Honestly? I don’t know how people get this so wrong, they just not read dialogue and just focus on the fanservice parts. They were never sacrificing a whole life’s planet to bring back their loved ones during ancient times. The first two sacrifices were for saving the planet and everyone on it as a whole. The 3rd sacrifice also wasn’t going to be all life on the planet, how does that even make sense? As far as Hydaelyn/Venat goes, you realize despite her preaching about feeling bad, she kept secrets from the ancients and didn’t tell them the truth which could have actually saved them in the long run. While people have shared what they wished would have happened, they have also pointed out the massive flaws and contradictions and non-cohesive story elements. It’s funny you bring up the powerful entity genociding millions. Yeah that’s Hydaelyn maam.

The various side quests throughout Elpis dispel the misconception that the Ancients were cruel and callous. At this point, it's almost as if some players are simply trying to falsely attribute circumstances to justify the act of genocide that was the Sundering rather than admit that what Venat did was exceedingly cruel, dodgy and inappropriate.

Each to their own, of course - people are free to read into the story however they so wish - but the Ancients had a cohesive society that worked for the betterment of Etheirys whereas what came after them, in the form of the Sundered, proved to be almost entirely selfish and monstrous by comparison.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

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I should have clarified that the two times they try span far different point in times: the first being after averting the Final Days and making Etheirys inhabitable again, which, yes, its's half (which clearly doesn't deviate my point as changing something double awful to awful still keeps it awful) and it's thwarted by Venta. The SECOND one was intended to happen after all Rejoinings had taken place and that time they DID intend to sacrifice ALL remaining inhabitants of the Source (see first cutscene of Shadowbringers quest). And it's funny that every time someone vilifies Hydaelyn, they're somewhat selective with the kill counts because where Hydaelyn genocided millions (probably less than that, given the losses to the Final Days and Zodiark), how many did Zodiark followers kill? Billions? Trillion? And that's without mentioning the myriad other atrocities they commited outside killing people. But it doesn't even end there, they're 100% unapologetic about it even after dying to you. It's easy to say Hydaelyn is a villain if you forget to mention the "hero" side contribution.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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What Elpis sidequest show is that any kind of attachment the Ancient had for their creations was superficial at most and that their whole attitude towards their inferior was indiferent, meaning whether life under them died or not didn't matter to them any more than an artist cares for his paintings. That's not even caring about their lives and they're even willing to sacrifice familiars in favor of those that are deemed of greater interest for them with no second thought. And this is aggravated when you consider the fact you're 9/14 an Ancient (just imagine if we were talking about a Shard inhabitant -my guess is they would be deemed defective and summarily erased-) and are treated just as another familiar. And the worst part? They do that when they're at their BEST. No hardships, no struggles, no tragedies and living in a perfect paradise. And do you know how they are when their perfect paradise is gone? You have people that are willing to sacrifice half a planet (not themselves though) to recover the paradise they long for and when it all comes crashing down, you get the Ascians (3 of them still being Ancients, the rest sharing memories of their unsundered selves). The same people that ushers several cataclysm without feeling one bit of remorse and for clearly egotistical purposes. You don't measure people or society just when they're at their prime but also for how they react towards their low points, the same way you can't judge a 1st world country inhabitants to be better than people from a South American country using crime statistics as a basis (because that's what Emet and Garleans do when they justify their superiority).

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

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You’re so factually incorrect i don’t even know where to begin. The first two sacrifices were volunteers. They did sacrifice themselves for it did you not pay attention in ShB? They did have hardships prior to the final days, do the side quests and pandemonium. They suffered like anyone else. You realize that we as the WoL and the sundered sacrifice familiars on a daily basis as well too right? Egi’s are created to be used as punching bags. We summon primals in Eden simply to kill then afterwards. They did 2 sacrifices. 1 was to avert the final days. The second was to restore life to the planet. The 3rd sacrifice would be sacrificing a portion of the new life to bring back the souls lost in Zodiark.

As for Hydaelyn, you need to realize she also brought on the severe morTality with illness and incredibly reduced age. Deaths due to those are all on her hands. Multiply that by the amount of shards and yeah….you get into the trillions and we’re still feeling the effects of that to this day.

To be honest I don't think we ever got an actual proper look at Ancient society; the shades Emet-Selch made were a glimpse into a specific point in time and what he wanted to show us. Elpis was also specifically a test/research facility full of scientists, and you know how scientists are. You basically have to be detached to an extent, or else you'll end up having a breakdown like Hermes did.

It also seems like peoples' perception of the Ancients are tainted by their dislike of Emet-Selch. Disliking him is reasonable as any other preference; I myself found him contemptible and pitiful and with reddit moments at times. I highly doubt a lot of the Ancients who gave themselves for the planet would really approve of the Ascian's actions; even Emet-Selch in Elpis dumps on his future self for being a madman.

This is also a thread to dump on Endwalker; had plenty of complaints about ShB myself, and its patches especially (not a fan of 5.3 at all).

Such perceptions are also tainted by their unwillingness to 1) realise that the sundered do much the same things they're criticising the ancients for, if not worse and 2) ditto with respect to RL humans. Ultimately if it's asserted that the ancients somehow 'deserved' their destruction for that (which isn't really a point the story makes), the same conclusion could follow for the sundered.

The sundering having been sprung on the ancients out of the blue, without much of an actual explanation to it, goes some way to re-contextualising the Ascians' actions, even if their methods are detrimental to the sundered IMO, meaning the latter have every right to oppose them, much as the ancients/unsundered would have every right to oppose what Venat did to them.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You’re so factually incorrect i don’t even know where to begin. The first two sacrifices were volunteers. They did sacrifice themselves for it did you not pay attention in ShB? They did have hardships prior to the final days, do the side quests and pandemonium. They suffered like anyone else. You realize that we as the WoL and the sundered sacrifice familiars on a daily basis as well too right? Egi’s are created to be used as punching bags. We summon primals in Eden simply to kill then afterwards. They did 2 sacrifices. 1 was to avert the final days. The second was to restore life to the planet. The 3rd sacrifice would be sacrificing a portion of the new life to bring back the souls lost in Zodiark.

As for Hydaelyn, you need to realize she also brought on the severe morality with illness and incredibly reduced age. Deaths due to those are all on her hands. Multiply that by the amount of shards and yeah….you get into the trillions and we’re still feeling the effects of that to this day.T

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Pandaemonium story isn't even full unveiled and the extent of its misery pales, to what you find after a cataclysm or after the Final Days. Their suffering PALES to what you see in, let's say, Ul'dah squalors or a garlean-occupied territory. It's not even a question. If Amauerotian daddy/sensei issues are suffering, sundereds struggles for SURVIVAL are a hell. And you CAN'T pin this on Hydaelyn because said HELL is of their own making (and at times, Ascian making). And that, where Egis and Primals enter. It's not a whim for the sundered as much as you can like to summon old Titan-Egi to die to npcs for you as it is to issue a threat to their selfsame lifes. The games goes for a good while to elaborate how Beast Tribes (or us in Eden) summon primals many times out of despair or necessity.

And you need to read more carefully because I was talking about ATTEMPTS at sacrificing involuntary parties which were TWO, wholly unrelated to the willing sacrifices made before that you mention. One that was thwarted (the 3rd sacrifice) and one that was left as temptative because it was planned to be done AFTER the rejoinings, in order to recover those sacrificed for Zodiark's summoning by sacrificing the remaining inhabitans of the source. And if you don't believe the second one was on the table, I STRONGLY suggest YOU review shadowbringers cutscenes (specifically the one where you finally meet Emet in the Capitol).

And the life span analogy is so absurd that I'll make a point by giving an equally absurd analogy. Amaurotian culture endorses literal suicide whenever someone has finalized his purpose. This philosophy has probably caused the deaths of trillions and trillions of amaurotians who would've lived a bit longer if people conviced there was more to life than a one purpose (just like G'raha conviced the Omicrons shades, shades of a culture MORE advanced than amaurotians).

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

To be honest I don't think we ever got an actual proper look at Ancient society; the shades Emet-Selch made were a glimpse into a specific point in time and what he wanted to show us. Elpis was also specifically a test/research facility full of scientists, and you know how scientists are. You basically have to be detached to an extent, or else you'll end up having a breakdown like Hermes did.

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As someone who is into the field of Biology and research, I can tell you that scientist do not take lives as willy nilly as media would assert. For a long time, there are strict ethics regarding animal use and it's heavily emphasized to make the most of animals, along with making they live in decent conditions and are granted painless and quick deaths. They don't puke and cry for every mice or rat that is killed but they're not nearly as whimsical as Elpis researchers are.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Pandaemonium story isn't even full unveiled and the extent of its misery pales, to what you find after a cataclysm or after the Final Days. Their suffering PALES to what you see in, let's say, Ul'dah squalors or a garlean-occupied territory. It's not even a question. If Amauerotian daddy/sensei issues are suffering, sundereds struggles for SURVIVAL are a hell. And you CAN'T pin this on Hydaelyn because said HELL is of their own making (and at times, Ascian making). And that, where Egis and Primals enter. It's not a whim for the sundered as much as you can like to summon old Titan-Egi to die to npcs for you as it is to issue a threat to their selfsame lifes. The games goes for a good while to elaborate how Beast Tribes (or us in Eden) summon primals many times out of despair or immense necessity.

And you need to read more carefully because I was talking about ATTEMPTS at sacrificing involuntary parties which were TWO, wholly unrelated to the willing sacrifices made before that you mention. One that was thwarted (the 3rd sacrifice) and one that was left as temptative because it was planned to be done AFTER the rejoinings, in order to recover those sacrificed for Zodiark's summoning by sacrificing the remaining inhabitans of the source. And if you don't believe the second one was on the table, I STRONGLY suggest YOU review shadowbringers cutscenes (specifically the one where you finally meet Emet in the Capitol).

And the life span analogy is so absurd that I'll make a point by giving an equally absurd analogy. Amaurotian culture endorses literal suicide whenever someone has finalized his purpose. This philosophy has probably caused the deaths of trillions and trillions of amaurotians who would've lived a bit longer if people conviced there was more to life than a one purpose (just like G'raha conviced the Omicrons shades, shades of a culture MORE advanced than amaurotians).

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So now it’s a competition of suffering. I dare say the ancients suffered far more due to the final days itself. It devastated their entire planet rather than just a couple zones for the sundered. The ascians struggled and toiled for 12,000 years to bring their people back as wellEven disregarding that though, we don’t know what life it was they would sacrifice. Sure, the poroggo familiars and sharlayan familiars and mammets are totally done out of sheer necessity. Much like how uldah’s coliseum raises and captures animals only for them to be slaughtered for entertainment purposes right? The ancients at least had funeral rites for what creations they had to undo.

The vast majority of suffering within the setting exists as a direct result of Venat's actions so it's fair game to tie the likes of Ul'dah's inequality and Garlemald's conquest to the consequences of the Sundering.

Furthermore, the Garleans were only seeking to conquer other nations as a direct result of being unable to naturally manipulate aether which resulted in their land being stolen bit by bit until they were forced to do whatever was necessary in order to prevent their own extinction. Incidentally, had it not been for the Ascians giving the Garleans a helping hand they may very well have gone extinct had they not become an Empire.

Let's not forget the side quest in Amaurot which revealed that Ancients who could not manipulate aether to the same extent as their brethren were given the tools in which they could do so in the name of equality. Something, I note, which differs significantly to how the Sundered reacted to the same set of circumstances...

In other words, the Garleans were forced into an unenviable situation. Much like the Ascians, who, in an effort to prevent the extinction of their own people, sought to pursue the Rejoinings...something which is again a direct consequence of Venat inflicting genocide upon the Ancients without their consent.

The Ancients also did not put any pressure on their own to 'commit suicide'. They were an exceedingly long lived race who, when they felt themselves ready, would willingly allow their aether to return to their beloved Etheirys. Had they not done as much and had lived instead for near eternity I don't doubt that the goalposts would be moved in order to criticise them for that instead.

The sundering quite objectively reduced their lifespans. There is nothing "absurd" about that. It is perfectly sensible that immortal beings might want to make a return to the star after they feel they've lived a good life, and make way for future generations. But they could at least make that choice. The sundering cut lifespans to the point that the decision is taken out of their hands entirely.

As an aside, it is the goal of the Scions to reduce suffering and spread peace and prosperity - goals they remain undeterred from pursuing. In time, particularly with the calamities gone, suffering will slowly vanish from the world if such a mentality succeeds. So either they just throw up their hands and embrace suffering as inevitable, and keep civilisation at a state of constant conflict brewing beneath the surface (think Ul'dah or the Steppes), or they figure out a better way to eventually deal with the ennui that reduction in suffering can entail.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

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Willy-nilly and whimsical? The animals in Elpis/Ktsis seemed to be roaming around freely for the most part. Some were in cages, though who knows for how long. Ones like the Lykaeons were also instantly unmade into magical aether particles after being captured; the description for the Lethe sightseeing point also states it was where such lifeforms have been dissolved. Certainly, much better than beagles being forcibly held down and infested with parasites on our dime. This is also a fantasy world where reincarnation is 100% a real, observable thing.

Anyway, not really interested in a high horse judgementfest, time to have fun elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

So now it’s a competition of suffering. I dare say the ancients suffered far more due to the final days itself. It devastated their entire planet rather than just a couple zones for the sundered. The ascians struggled and toiled for 12,000 years to bring their people back as wellEven disregarding that though, we don’t know what life it was they would sacrifice. Sure, the poroggo familiars and sharlayan familiars and mammets are totally done out of sheer necessity. Much like how uldah’s coliseum raises and captures animals only for them to be slaughtered for entertainment purposes right? The ancients at least had funeral rites for what creations they had to undo.

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You realize the unsundered didn't suffer more about their final days because we kinda stopped them, right?. Had we stopped them too late, they would be at the exact same point as the amaurotians. Not to mention the Amaurotians didn't get 7 Calamities (8 if we count those in the alternate timeline) unlike the sundered did, thanks in no small part to the remaining Ascians that were suffering severe withdrawal on copium.

But let's keep the competition? Why would we make like, um, sharks with legs? Well, because sharks. With legs. Shark. With. Legs. Peak caring for life. And the colliseum drives it home, because it shows that anyone who's living the good life care very little about what's below him. Just like Ul'dah rich people do, so do Amaurotians. That's why Fandaniel goes full ape shit to begin with. Remember his flashbacks? In his mind, then and now were the same to him. C

And the funeral rites... who do you think they learned them from? From us. The sundered heros who come from the future.

How is a shark with legs much different to a pig with wings or a walking, talking frog? Both of which were explicitly created by the Sundered to serve as familiars...

To say nothing of the simple fact that we're specifically dealing with a fantasy setting that is not afraid to be whimsical at times rather than embrace gritty, serious realism at every turn.

We also learn that any entity created by the Ancients was specifically forged to benefit Etheirys in some manner. A mentality which doesn't differ terribly from the Sundered, aside from the fact that the Sundered will often violently kill creatures that are an 'annoyance' rather than learn to coexist with them.

Re the funeral thing, the MC's contribution is not the actual rites. It is the suggestion of a physical reminder. See here.

The sticking point for me is Venat retaining her memories. This means that she purposefully waited for 75% of her brethren to sacrifice themselves before intervening (and suddenly being anti-sacrifice). It also means that she knowingly created more reflections than necessary to serve as fodder for the Ascians. As far as I'm concerned, those trillions of lives lost in rejoinings fall squarely at Venat's feet. There's been no indication that she's ever been able to or even interested in protecting the shards given that her contingency plan was to abandon them.

The Ascians also aren't responsible for every conflict ever among the sundered. It doesn't appear they had any hand in the Dragonsong War until the end where Lahabrea thought he might manipulate Thordan. We only know Emet was responsible for the origination of Allag and Garlemald, but once established those nations went on to do quite a bit of their own free will without Ascian guidance. It's too convenient to attribute all of mankind's sins onto the unsundered who were just exploiting weaknesses in the sundered.

As for sacrificing life on the Source, that would have been non-Amaurotine life. The whole point of the rejoinings is to make everyone whole again and to eventually release the souls within Zodiark, it'd be counterproductive to sacrifice the sundered.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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But then you have to give fairness where fairness is due and isolate the whismical cases from both sides. And Sundered don't have a "Delete" spell on them so their resources for eliminating threats or "nuisances" are far more limited. Not to mention most of the exterminate cases are less about nuisance and more about threats or collection of resources. On the general, non-whimsical scope.

And, all in all, this has deviated way far from my original premise, because the point argued is that to argue Hydaelyn being a villain leads invariably to the point of Zodiark and the Amaurotians are the good guys when most of the messes we have to deal can be traced to the Ascians, Amaurotians through and thorough. I would've agreed if it was a case of neither the good guys are that good or the bad guys that bad but this is not what people is trying to convey. It's easy to misinterprete the Amaurotians as being good because the setting they live gives a flawed premise. How can we know if they're good when we see them only when they don't face meaningful crises. And if anything comes from the Final Days is that even they aren't immune to them. And Hermes and Ultima Thule drive home the point that the Amaurotian culture itself and their values aren't as perfect as they themselves want to believe. On the other hand, the Ascians DO give good context on the lenghts Ancients go when they are hard pressed. And their actions go lenghts and lenght to show they're not the good guys either and their intentions aren't one inch altruistic. They despise the sundered and if Venat gave them suffering, the Ascians did NOTHING but add three extra cups to it. And they could've just as easily try to nurture the sundered societies to improvement. Hells, they could've become the actual Warriors of Light instead of us (and so far, the game has shown how much the world has improved for out work, despite us being a fraction of an Ascian). And they don't even give a fraction of care. Hell, even their end goal doesn't involve any inhabitant of the Source as they're meant to be the remaining sacrifices so they can return to Vanilla Etheirys and act like nothing happened until the next Hermes individuals comes and brings another apocalypsis because trying to move on is apparently too much for the O so great ancients when the lowly sundered got the lesson after several civilization ending catastrophes.

Also, Midgarsomr and Tiamat himselfs hint the possibility they had a hand in Dragonsong War starting in Azys Lla as they point them to be the root of the miseries. Not to mention, we see several instance of Ascian causing disgraces left and right, specially in ARR. Also, Garlean and Allag catastrophes were full within the Ascian plans and the Ascian themselves helped them to it (Dalamud is a pretty good reminder for both cases). Also, Emet-Selch is very explicit in saying "the remaining habitants of the Source". That really isn't open to any interpretation and it being "non-Amaurotian" REALLY doesn't soften the blow of, you know, commiting more genocide for their egotistical objectives.