Tank dps harrasment

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Originally Posted by Miste

Simply dropping tank stance on bosses in Expert Roulette is not "try hard". It is actually not that much different than just using tank stance and it is quite easy to get used to in my opinion.

You just open in tank stance, obtain solid hate, then switch to DPS stance and cycle your cooldowns to avoid taking too much damage. If you notice DPS are creeping on you then you make proper judgement on using more hate combo or if you need to go back into tank stance or not; also if the healer is new or seems to be struggling for any reason it is fine to stay in tank stance. The bosses generally don't do enough damage to need tank stance.

I mean if you can do your main role of tanking also while DPSing for more why wouldn't you do it? It's beneficial for everyone. I am not saying it is okay to harass a tank not doing it or kick them, because I think that is way overboard and not necessary in a dungeon, but I see nothing wrong with advocating more beneficial play styles and putting in the effort to try new ways of playing that would be beneficial for everyone.

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The discussion here isn't whether or not you should do it casual content, it's whether people should catch grief for not doing so.

I'm an AST that DPSs like mad in dungeons. But that's because I can. Despite that, if I'm running it as tank or dps and I pull a healer that only DPSs a little or not at all, I'm not going to attack them for it. It's casual content. Same applies to tanks in casual content that stays in tank stance, or only does smaller pulls when I tell them I can heal through large pulls.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

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This is stupid also just force people to be stuck in tutorial mode until they learn how to play jobs or gate content behind sss dummies lazy bad player problems solved

It's all well and good to be comfortable with your play style and not want others to impose their play style on you. On the other hand those other players can choose to not have your in their party, as in the OP's party finder example, and you then be denied a spot on that basis.

Can't have one condition without the other.

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Take that dissatisfaction and use it as motivation to improve yourself. The only person holding you back is you.

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The only person holding them back is them, even though it's other people wrongfully kicking them from parties. Okay, sure.

Are you even listening to yourself?

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Personally, I think that if you play a tank, you should only play with friends or fc members and completely disregard df and pf if you can.

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Why would I do that when one of the main draws of playing tank is getting near instant queues on almost everything?

IMO if you have friends to queue with that's a reason to play DPS, because otherwise you'll be dealing with awful queue times on most things.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

IMO if you have friends to queue with that's a reason to play DPS, because otherwise you'll be dealing with awful queue times on most things.

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I solo queue as dps all the time its just more incentive to not be horrible at this game

I want to hear from end game healers on dropping tank stance. Does it put extra stress on you in DF or PF? Do you expect the tank to dps stance and are prepared for it healing wise with zero communication? Would you rather the tank stay in tank stance?

I’ve only dabbled in shinex and that damage is real.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

The discussion here isn't whether or not you should do it casual content, it's whether people should catch grief for not doing so.

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I think you missed part of what I wrote? I already said in that post that I don't agree with harassing or kicking a tank over not doing it in dungeons. I was specifically replying to him because he said it was "try hard" to utilize your DPS stance on a tank.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

I want to hear from end game healers on dropping tank stance. Does it put extra stress on you in DF or PF? Do you expect the tank to dps stance and are prepared for it healing wise with zero communication? Would you rather the tank stay in tank stance?

I’ve only dabbled in shinex and that damage is real.

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End game healers are generally used to it. If you do savage it is almost a natural state to heal tanks in DPS stances. You learn to adjust and learn what you need to do to make sure they get the healing they need, but it is also the tank's responsibility to make sure they use their cooldowns properly as well since healers also need to find time to DPS to help the group as well.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Let's cut the BS. [...]

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Ah yes, the ol' thinly veiled "expecting more than the barest minimum is elitism" argument. By your silly logic, players should be able to go into dungeons and literally auto-attack mobs to death and no one should be allowed to say anything or remove them, because after all that's "enough to get things done" even if it winds up taking you 50 minutes to clear something that shouldn't take 15.

Just because you can do the absolute barest minimum and still manage to clear content (largely because everyone else in the group picked up your slack) doesn't mean you should nor is it grounds to get upset if someone removes you from their group for being a sandbag.

The next time you see someone dragging their feet or if you decide not to put forth real effort, ask yourself this: if the other 4/7/23 people all halfassed it too, would you still be able to clear the content? If the answer is "No" then you understand exactly why your attitude is problematic.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

The only person holding them back is them, even though it's other people wrongfully kicking them from parties. Okay, sure.

Are you even listening to yourself?

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Well I mean, if someone is regularly being removed from different, unrelated groups for the same reason every time it isn't hard to draw a simple and accurate conclusion that the person being kicked is indeed holding themselves back for refusal to fix what they know everyone else sees as a problem.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

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All players have the same job -- to make whatever their doing as quick as possible. That's why you take a healer or tank in the first place. Among three other basically equally skilled players can make a bigger difference to clear time on your healer job than on your tank or DPS, then you are better able to perform your job on your healer than on your tank or dps. It's really quite simple.

Now, some jobs -- like tanks or healer, free up a whole lot more time with even minimal effort than, say, a DPS. But that doesn't mean that you have nothing more to contribute. If they were in your shoes, could they go faster. If yes, and you're not playing to the fullest, then you're still doing less than they are. We're not as likely to care if a healer or tank aren't maximizing their potential because they're already drastically more efficient choices (relative to doing a no-tank or no-healer run), but that doesn't mean they cannot or should not be asked to play to their fullest (as a character with x gear and y job and a player with x experience and y level of comfort). That's their job. To perform. The role is just a division of smaller responsibilities therein. The goal is always content completion, and the only spectrum there is clear speed.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

I want to hear from end game healers on dropping tank stance. Does it put extra stress on you in DF or PF? Do you expect the tank to dps stance and are prepared for it healing wise with zero communication? Would you rather the tank stay in tank stance?

I’ve only dabbled in shinex and that damage is real.

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The only clears I have on Shinryu EX involve both tanks dropping stance whenever they aren't MT and for a good portion of the time that they are MT.

In any kind of primarily single target scenario a tank can outDPS a healer more often than not, even a WHM who can do some crazy burst if you line things up right. It makes sense that healers take on the big chunk of the support there and let the tanks DPS.

Personally this thread doesn't have much to do with endgame to me. If I had a pugtank in an EX trial sitting in tank stance with a huge threat lead I would say something and feel justified doing so because of the level of that content. This thread is primarily about dungeons which don't really have any kind of enrage to beat.

All that aside I'm seeing this "do your primary job and that alone is good enough" pop up.

No. A RDM spamming Jolt is not acceptable. A PLD holding hate with only Flash is not acceptable. A healer never DPSing is not acceptable. It's lazy. You have an entire kit of abilities here and I can tell you that using the vast majority of them (sorry Repose and Fluid Aura) is the key to a swift and effective victory. A tank stance dancing is no different. While I would advocate for a less kick-happy mentality when dealing with someone playing their job poorly I don't see anything wrong with giving some advice and expecting to see them at least try. If that advice prompts a hostile response well then I'm not voting to kick a bad tank just an oversensitive jerk.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

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I mean this diversion is so good I almost wish it was a cross ro- oh, yeah.

I'm a bad SAM.

Jokes aside though this misses the point so hard you seem to have an accuracy down debuff. But wait! I actually slotted Esuna!

Virtually none of the posts in this thread advocate for the OP to be kicked based on her lack of stance dancing. Many of us are healer mains who understand how hard stance dancing is - you think it's hard as a tank? Try Cleric, where at 60 my Cure 2 could crit for like 2k. Many a tank has been Cleric Stance murdered.

The point is that you have to try. Not even try hard (those are actually two separate words, not sure you knew - also a verb and an adjective, no nouns here) just try. I've coaxed many a baby tank through dropping stance on bosses and seen them outdps me thanks to this handy crystal ball a friend sometimes carries around. The OP could easily be another one if she's on Aether. Between CD rotation, immunities and a little help from a competent healer you don't have to be a "raider" to stance dance as a tank anymore.

Also what is your beef with raiders? I mean, not to derail this topic further but you seem to have a real grudge. There is nothing wrong with being hardcore. There is nothing wrong with being casual. Just like the real world though people who are better at things are going to try to help people who aren't. I agree kicking them is not helping but neither is saying a tank pulling down almost no dps is " doing their job well"...