Dear Healers who don't DPS

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Originally Posted by Vyriah

Oh ?
So there's 34 pages of people calling everyone lazy and incompetent and you're fine with it, but when when I ironically do it, it's not fine anymore ? I don't remember seeing such vivid reaction for the post I quote while it was actually aggressive.

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I don't care about the other 34 pages nor did I read all of it. I happen to read your last post though and the only point I was making is that you started swearing and calling people stupid. If you notice the post you quoted from Moro did neither of those things. I never said her post was perfectly nice, but there is a difference between that and swearing at people and calling them stupid etc.

Also Ghishlain didn't do anything to deserve that bad joke :/
You made fun of them for not spelling Charybdis correctly; you claim it was a joke, but sorry it wasn't funny and after your tirade of swearing and calling people stupid all it did was look really rude just like the rest of your post.

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Originally Posted by Vyriah

I'm doing arround 2k DPS with my SCH, what are you talking about ?

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I never said you don't DPS on healer. I was only talking about the statement you made being hypocritical. Not talking about you or how you play at all.

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Originally Posted by Vyriah

Also, what you're saying makes no sense. First because it's exactly what a lot of player tend to do, and that's why there's now healer bonus on some random dungeon queue. Second because playing as you want and forcing to play as you want are something completly different. All this thread isn't about "how can I ask a healer I don't know to DPS more in dungeon" it's all about "how healer that don't do DPS is bad, and lazy, and incompetent and I should be able to kick them from my parties without risking being accused of vote kick abuse". But you're abusing vote kick abuse, and you're making sophistic speeches about how people should do what you want them to do.

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It does make sense, you just don't understand what I am saying I guess.

The argument I pointed out that you tried to use is hypocritical. That's pretty much the extent of it. It isn't about forcing anyone to do anything it is simply that you might get in a group that is unwilling to accept your preferred playstyle. So you've misunderstood.

You cannot have expectations in DF which works on both sides of this argument. People cannot expect the healer they get will always do DPS, BUT people also cannot expect to go into a DF on healer and always get people that are OKAY with a healer not DPSing at all.

This is what I meant about the argument you were using being hypocritical. Both sides cannot have expectations, that includes everyone. If you have expectations that you absolutely cannot compromise on and you do not wish to ever be vote kicked out of a group for not compromising then you have to use PF/FC/Friends no matter which side of the argument you happen to be on.

in DF majority rules and if the majority is okay to vote kick someone out for "different playstyles" then that is already been told by SE that it is a valid reason to kick and is therefore not vote kick abuse.

For example if my preferred tanking playstyle was to pull everything I can pull all the time even if the healer is really stressing and struggling and it isn't fun for them...and the rest of the group was in agreement with the healer that I need to slow down but I refuse then they can kick me with majority vote.

I cannot get mad over this vote kick because I refused to compromise when the rest of the group didn't want me to play a certain way and if I 100% NEED to play the way I want or I will be not happy or get mad if I get vote kicked then I need to get friends or PF to get people who want me to tank that way.

Honestly in this game if you go in to DF willing to put effort into compromising and effort into playing the game to best of your ability to help your team then you notice you won't really get vote kicked much, if at all.

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Originally Posted by Miste

You also made fun of someone for not spelling Charybdis correctly; you claim it was a joke, but sorry it wasn't funny and after your tirade of swearing and calling people stupid all it did was look really rude just like the rest of your post.

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Uh ? I was making fun of people like OP and such that call people lazy and incompetent every two post or something, not the post I quoted. I though it was pretty obvious I completly against calling people names for their performance in video game, or even spelling for that matter (in case you didn't notice, i'm master degree on typos).
Charybdis is a greek sea monster that has been rumored since ancient times to make everyone misspell its name at the first read. I'm not mocking any one on this, but once you know that it's something outside of the game it's easier to remember it.


But eh, if you're going on that field, isn't hypocrisy noticing just now that someone accused someone of being lazy while it's written in the very first post of the topic ? So, because it's not coming from the crowd shouting at your back, it's suddely revolting and you have to point it out ? I don't see where you're trying to tone down this, outside of saying "different playstyle" as a figure of speech to say "lazy healers". You're still advocating kicking them out of you're party. also, it's now really hard to hide that it's the only point of this thread by now, everynow it's illegitimate no matter how hard you try to convice yourselves and your building rhetoric and sophistics to justify it anyway. You don't do 35 pages of text about something obvious.

The reason I answer to what you're saying, and what was said before, it's because you're all using social stereotypes to make your point. More precisely, the social stereotypes about poverty (lazy and incompetent). Add to that the insane focus on efficiency and kick people out of the structure if they don't meet the standard and it's easy to see that people saying the kind of thing you say assimilate to game as a job. What you're talking about in that message is that would be a unspoken contract between players to play in a precise way, but that's not the case. that would be righter if we were talking about PF, when there's one person stating conditions and the one joining them should agree to them. But one for people are assembled at random, there's no such thing and what you want is what you want.
If you want High DPS, do high DPS. I you want to only do heal, you only heal. But you can't force that guy next to you to do what you want to do. You're convinced that they should do something else ? Trying telling them about it. Mostly, they'll find you annoying because that's how it looks to give random advices to strangers. If you can make a point, maybe some one is gonna listen to what you say and that's it ? There's no discussion about this actually.
But even better than having expectation out of other player, try to let them learn. Because learning the game is playing the game.

tl;dr leave people be.

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Originally Posted by Vyriah

But eh, if you're going on that field, isn't hypocrisy noticing just now that someone accused someone of being lazy while it's written in the very first post of the topic ?

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You didn't quote the first post to call them lazy and incompetent as revenge or whatever, it's not hypocrisy because you quoted an innocent person who did absolutely nothing of the sort. I am just telling you that kind of joke doesn't seem funny because you aimed it at the wrong person. Ghishlain didn't say healers were lazy or incompetent so they don't deserve that joke especially since they don't know you to know you were joking until you claimed so.

Also doesn't stop the rest of your post being full of swears :/

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Originally Posted by Vyriah

I don't see where you're trying to tone down this, outside of saying "different playstyle" as a figure of speech to say "lazy healers". You're still advocating kicking them out of you're party.

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I am posting objective facts about certain arguments being factually hypocritical; this has nothing to do with my personal opinions it is just based on the rules of the game and what SE has said about what is allowed for the vote kick feature.

DF like I said majority rules I don't agree to kick someone out for no reason and there are probably some cases where a kick was 100% unjustified due to players possibly openly admitting to kicking someone for zero reason, but SE has said that it is not against the rules to kick someone for different playstyles. That doesn't mean I personally do that, but you can't claim it is abuse when SE themselves say it is not.

If you read my other posts you would realize you are very wrong about me because I said already....

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Originally Posted by Miste

I never say or do anything to healers who don't DPS in DF. I ignore it even though it irks me, but there are simple facts about how this is suboptimal play.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I am sorry to be so blunt about all of this. I am not trying to be mean or rude to anyone who doesn't DPS on healer. I am just trying to explain objectively why this mentality is just wrong.

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Originally Posted by Vyriah

The point make go against what you're saying just now, and what was said before, it's because you're all using social stereotypes to make your point. More precisely, the social stereotypes about poverty (lazy and incompetent). Add to that the insane focus on efficiency and kick people out of the structure if they don't meet the standard and it's easy to see that people saying the kind of thing you say assimilate to game as a job. What you're talking about in that message is that would be a unspoken contract between players to play in a precise way, but that's not the case. that would be righter if we were talking about PF, when there's one person stating conditions and the one joining them should agree to them. But one for people are assembled at random, there's no such thing and what you want is what you want.
If you want High DPS, do high DPS. I you want to only do heal, you only heal. But you can't force that guy next to you to do what you want to do. You're convinced that they should do something else ? Trying telling them about it. Mostly, they'll find you annoying because that's how it looks to give random advices to strangers. If you can make a point, maybe some one is gonna listen to what you say and that's it ? There's no discussion about this actually.
But even better than having expectation out of other player, try to let them learn. Because learning the game is playing the game.

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This whole section of quote from your post...you do realize this has nothing to do with me right?

All this you wrote has nothing to do with what I was trying to explain to you.

I never called healers lazy or incompetent just because they don't DPS so why waste your time replying to me about it? Some of them might be being lazy some of them might be unskilled and they are reasons they might not DPS, but I never automatically assume this to be the case. I also rarely ever vote kick anyone unless they verbally harass someone else in the group.

This post is a waste directed at me. I hope you understand that. I am not really going to respond anymore to you after this because you really do not understand me or what I am trying to tell you about not using hypocritical arguments since they just don't work.

Also you cannot expect not to have people sometimes try to help by offering advice to people in a cooperative style game. We are, as a community, supposed to be helping each other. So it is normal to have "advice from strangers" when you play an online game and get placed on a team that is supposed to be working together to complete content. If you find it annoying or others do then this may not be the right game for them to play. You can either ignore the advice or turn off your chat, but don't get pissed at the people simply offering the advice unless they phrased it rudely like swearing at you or nasty language if they didn't do those things then all they were trying to do was help.

tl;dr: you cannot expect people to "leave you be" in a massively multiplayer cooperative style game where you get placed on a team to work together.

What in the multiple data center world are you even talking about ?

You're just rambling about the lazy people part while you just completly miss out the exact meaning of what was written and it's degenrating to unspeakable heigh.
I was underlying the passive aggressive of pro-healer advocate on the thread, not accusing someone being stupid. It's the worst case irony being lost on someone I've ever see in my life and I basically get that I shouldn't use second degree speech to someone I don't already know well enough, there's no need to keep going on that matter.

I'm pretty sure you're sure about what you're trying to defend anymore. It's okay, i'm not a arch-ennemy or whatever, just some random person telling things over the net in questionnable english.
I won't sya i'm not one the take part in heated discussion, but this getting a bit to heated to end in anything good.

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Originally Posted by Vyriah

What in the multiple data center world are you even talking about ?

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That's what I said first lol you just don't understand me. That's all there is really.

This isn't really a heated discussion on my side. Just been trying over and over to explain my original point to you since you didn't understand what I was trying to say.

I do get it, but I don't agree with it.

You can't force your expectation about the game on any one, healer DPS isn't require to do proprer dungeon, it's only a bonus for really quick run. Most of the time, it doesn't ask more than two players to make a dungeon really smoother, no matter their role, and really huge fuck-ups to make it really longer. So if two player agree to kick someone, anyone, to get more DPS on the next roll they could as well just get things done themselves. Expert dungeon are the major pain to do, but they're the one with the overall better player.

Thing is, you missed the fact there's already a lot of healer that won't player with randoms because they don't want to deal with the shit in PF, and getting told they sucks. So they go in FC and so. There's a lot players who extremly low APM, or that aren't confident in content with other player and things like that. There's a lot of those player types on MMO with such large playerbase, and a lot of them ren't gonna grab the healers. Because they like that non aggressive take on the content, because they don't want high excecution based jobs. Some people may be leveling all job without being proficient about any of them. And that's all fine, these are way to play de game.

As a tool, dungeon finder is made for accessibility, not efficiency. When you use it, you agree to proc a dungeon quickly, but you don't choose with who end up with. that's the privilege of PF. I think player don't have the habbit of using it for quick run while it would be perfect for that. When you recruit your team like that, you can fix the rules and not just expect anyone to know how you want to play. I do see some farming dungeon partie sometimes, but I'm not sure why it's not more frequent. It's the right tool for what you want, PF is more about having less interaction between player.

But in the end, if you're the one finding the player you and up with not go enough, it's not everybody else that need to abide your rules. Most player will play the way they do because they think it's fine and to be honest, to game is more and the side healer doing only healing than healer doing DPS. The way Cure 1 and Cure 2 interact with one another is gonna make everyone think "I should use Cure 1 until free Cure 2 happen most of the time". And that's also why lilies were made the way they are, but it would a have asked a much more radical revamp on the game to work that way.

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Originally Posted by Vyriah

You can't force your expectation about the game on any one, healer DPS isn't require to do proprer dungeon

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Where did I say healer DPS is required?

Where did I say I force my expectation on another player?

I actually said the exact opposite that neither side can go into DF with expectations. I mean I can highlight this again for you?

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Originally Posted by Miste

You cannot have expectations in DF which works on both sides of this argument. People cannot expect the healer they get will always do DPS, BUT people also cannot expect to go into a DF on healer and always get people that are OKAY with a healer not DPSing at all.

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Originally Posted by Miste

This is what I meant about the argument you were using being hypocritical. Both sides cannot have expectations

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So...you are accusing me of saying one thing when I actually said the exact opposite.

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Originally Posted by Vyriah

I do get it

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No you don't. I just had to requote my own post from earlier to show you that you have it completely backwards.

Like I said, you simply do not understand what I am saying. Either that or you simply are not bothering to read what I am saying. You are wasting your time preaching to me about healer DPS in DF since I just ignore it if a healer isn't DPSing. They won't get a comm from me, but I don't say anything to them and I don't vote kick unless people verbally harass someone.

I will still advocate that not DPSing as a healer is sub-optimal play and will always be sub-optimal play unless SE changes how healing works in this game. Based on how the game is designed this is just a simple fact and cannot be argued against.

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Originally Posted by Vyriah

all this stuff

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You have discredited yourself in my eyes. My post was strongly worded but yours was an insult-laden tirade. I'm not sure what pushed you off the deep end but after the way you've behaved you can stay there as far as I'm concerned.

If any of you saying that healers who don't DPS aren't being lazy actually had a party comprised of nothing but players of that caliber I would be surprised if you could clear current content. At the end of the day this game relies so heavily on teamwork and a healer who is okay with riding the coattails of their team likely doesn't put much stock in that.

There are so many arguments for expected healer DPS here that have never recieved any kind of rebuttal (likely because there isn't one to make) and yet in 35 pages I haven't seen a single person on the side of the "pure" healers be able to make a point that holds water.

If a healer can only heal can a tank only flash? This was proven to hold aggro by a player in this very thread.

Since killing enemies mtigates damage aren't healers helping themselves when they DPS? Dead mobs can't hit back.

Holy's stun lock is some of the best mitigation in the game on big pulls, it stops everything. Why wouldn't you use that?

It is courteous to your party to DPS as a healer, both for run speed and also (almost more importantly) so that while they are doing the best they can they aren't watching you stand there and do nothing.

Almost all current casual content is so simple that if you aren't DPSing as a healer you must enjoy just blankly staring at the screen waiting for some kind of damage. Someone brought up O2N earlier; I did that tonight and if I didn't DPS or intentionally overheal I would have been standing in one place not moving for 30 seconds or more, this is like the height of current casual content and you can literally AFK for 30 seconds on it... Why would you not DPS?

I just don't understand. There are all these compelling reasons to DPS and no counter arguments but "my sub" and yet you people still beat this dead horse. Why? Why do you want to do something so boring? I just don't get it.

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Originally Posted by Myrhn

Im waiting for the "Tank dps more" and "DPS dps more" thread. Very rarely i see a tank breaking 1.5k dps and actual dps doing 3.6k - 4k+ dps. If you want me to do more i expect the same from you

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Most of the threads in those forums are about how to optimize the DPS of those roles. Also it is worlds easier for a healer dping next to no DPS to add 500-1k DPS where as DPS doing 3.5-4k adding that much would be a lot tougher.

these past few pages are just really the height of explaining why this argument needs to die already. Just leave people alone. Jesus. Nobody is changing anybody's mind.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

these past few pages are just really the height of explaining why this argument needs to die already. Just leave people alone. Jesus. Nobody is changing anybody's mind.

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With all due respect this is something some people care about; if it isn't a big deal to you that is fine but then why bother coming here and interjecting?