"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

Swiftcast is for extra Gravity cast when your Lightspeed runs out :P

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

This is quite a self-own if you think that's impossible LOL

I'm not going to post videos for you, little man. See you in roulettes I guess?

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The hardest part of what they asked would be remaining ahead of the DPS on the agro meter. Cause i guarantee that if the tank sits still and starts having a fit im running forward with the healer to actually finish the dungeon. Doesnt matter which of us pulls. I have black mage tanked 90% of the dungeons in the game due to connection issues faced by various tanks over the years. I know you can keep me up. Tanks arent required for dungeons, they just make them easier.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

It doesn't even matter if a tank pulls a YPYT, because healers are Gods.

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People oppose YPYT because of tanks with ego, but saying 'healers are god' is also ego, so the same thing. Team work is what matters here.

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Originally Posted by Grimforth

Then please by all means post a video of you doing W2W pull as a Healer on the latest dungeon and keeping yourself alive during it. If "healers are gods"

You can't and you won't.

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Healing themselves and the dps through w2w in expert possible,them doing the pull solo not a chance in Hell.

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

People oppose YPYT because of tanks with ego, but saying 'healers are god' is also ego, so the same thing. Team work is what matters here.

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Healers can carry the group the most out of any role, that's why healers are Gods. It's why I always heal, because I don't want to wipe and waste time, so even if I end up with someone who I'm shocked got to lvl 100 past all the solo duties, we still can get through no problem.

Now, I guess with the phoenix downs it's less of an issue.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Healing themselves and the dps through w2w in expert possible,them doing the pull solo not a chance in Hell.

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I would try that if I could queue solo into the new dungeon. My guess is that mana would be the biggest issue, so after like a few minutes you'd run out of mana before the mobs are dead. Super hi-ethers might make it possible, but it'd be really slow.

i've always mained white mage and i feel like it is so easy to keep everyone alive and do w2w pulls. i've been trying to speed level my ninja, and i never realized how horrible other healers are. it is actually so crazy to me. i feel like i'm doing my masters promos in league or something i get so angry with these dumb people.

i have had three separate groups yell at me today for pulling when truthfully the issue is 1) the tank is failing to gain aggro. 2) the healer is awful and it's just really really hard to heal and do their job. i feel like i am playing pvp and the enemies are my own teammates.

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Originally Posted by IttyBittyShark

i've always mained white mage and i feel like it is so easy to keep everyone alive and do w2w pulls. i've been trying to speed level my ninja, and i never realized how horrible other healers are. it is actually so crazy to me. i feel like i'm doing my masters promos in league or something i get so angry with these dumb people.

i have had three separate groups yell at me today for pulling when truthfully the issue is 1) the tank is failing to gain aggro. 2) the healer is awful and it's just really really hard to heal and do their job. i feel like i am playing pvp and the enemies are my own teammates.

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Have you considered if 3 different groups had problem with you, maybe you are the problem?

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

Sure, it's totally understandable for a low-level tank to not wallpull in pre-50 dungeons. Past 50 however, dungeons become easier enough and jobs have more than enough tools to handle wallpull without any issues. As for the topic of the thread, YPYT isn't usually an issue of not being comfortable enough to do it but a lot more often is an issue of ego like "I'm the leader of the group and nobody but me has the right to pull".

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You'll do it anyway regardless of dungeon.

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Originally Posted by MikeCake

Have you considered if 3 different groups had problem with you, maybe you are the problem?

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i have considered this but if i review it and look at it it is objectively good. the tank takes aggro, and the healer should heal through a wall to wall. if the healer cannot heal then they're just not good at their job. i am not pulling excessively i just am a bit ahead of the tank.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

I would try that if I could queue solo into the new dungeon. My guess is that mana would be the biggest issue, so after like a few minutes you'd run out of mana before the mobs are dead. Super hi-ethers might make it possible, but it'd be really slow.

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You would be more or less spamming nothing but heals. And the damage from 2 packs of lvl 100 dungeon mobs would out pace your healing.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

I would try that if I could queue solo into the new dungeon. My guess is that mana would be the biggest issue, so after like a few minutes you'd run out of mana before the mobs are dead. Super hi-ethers might make it possible, but it'd be really slow.

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It's doable if you can find 3 people willing to que with you so you are let in, then immediately leave.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

It's doable if you can find 3 people willing to que with you so you are let in, then immediately leave.

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Not if its expert lvl 100.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Not if its expert lvl 100.

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Should be able to put up a PF saying "I want to do something insane, get me into the latest 100 and then leave". I can't see why that wouldn't work.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

Should be able to put up a PF saying "I want to do something insane, get me into the latest 100 and then leave". I can't see why that wouldn't work.

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Did Lunar sub unsync'd took 3 tries and every CD I had to down the second w2w pull. Came close to dying a few times on the 3rd try and got hit for upwards of 14k by one mob. The first boss was hitting less then the trash packs themselves did could have killed it but just hopped out. lvl 100 dungeon mob is going to have higher HP and hit far harder. Nice to know I can solo a lvl 90 if anything depending on what has to be dealt with. :D

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Did Lunar sub unsync'd took 3 tries and every CD I had to down the second w2w pull. Came close to dying a few times on the 3rd try and got hit for upwards of 14k by one mob. The first boss was hitting less then the trash packs themselves did could have killed it but just hopped out. lvl 100 dungeon mob is going to have higher HP and hit far harder. Nice to know I can solo a lvl 90 if anything depending on what has to be dealt with. :D

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That's my kind of nuts. Love doing stuff like that. Gladiator worked in max level content too.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Not if its expert lvl 100.

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Oh no, you misunderstood what I meant, I meant that joining the instance "solo" is doable, if someone wants to test that, not that the dungeon itself is, I wouldn't know.

Perhaps I should've phrased that better...

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Oh no, you misunderstood what I meant, I meant that joining the instance "solo" is doable, if someone wants to test that, not that the dungeon itself is, I wouldn't know.

Perhaps I should've phrased that better...

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My appologies :D

On the subject of Pulling for the tank. Its best to let the tank pull, if you wish too help them then ask. Just make sure you are on the ball about getting back to them before you become a floor smear. Importantly don't panic and start running away from the tank as you will not be doing yourself or the tank any favors. We have all seen the players in the DF who go full bone head with aoe group markers or something on their rear. And instead of running to the group or the tank, they head off into the wild blue yonder. Nothing makes a healers day more then rescuing the goof running away with death on their arse.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

You would be more or less spamming nothing but heals. And the damage from 2 packs of lvl 100 dungeon mobs would out pace your healing.

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Nah, they don't outpace the healing. I know this, 'cause I've healed it with 2 dps when a tank had to brb. You can outheal it, but it's just a matter of when your mana runs out if you don't have dps with you.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Nah, they don't outpace the healing. I know this, 'cause I've healed it with 2 dps when a tank had to brb. You can outheal it, but it's just a matter of when your mana runs out if you don't have dps with you.

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I meant if you by yourself as in No dps or tank. I know its do able if some dps are present as your not eating all the damage all yourself.

eh. whatever. I've never been the YPYT type when I tank in roulettes.

I'm more of a "Yeah whatever, I'll just pull the mobs off you when I get there" guy,

people who run ahead and pull everything while spamming their jump button are kinda annoying, but not actually annoying enough to make a scene about, to be totally honest. it's far too easy to just rip aggro from them to waste time arguing about it.

they wanna round up 3 rooms of mobs, that's just less work for me. /shrug

(also, the jump spamming is waaaaay more annoying than the actual pulling, if I'm gonna keep it a buck)

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

eh. whatever. I've never been the YPYT type when I tank in roulettes.

I'm more of a "Yeah whatever, I'll just pull the mobs off you when I get there" guy,

people who run ahead and pull everything while spamming their jump button are kinda annoying, but not actually annoying enough to make a scene about, to be totally honest. it's far too easy to just rip aggro from them to waste time arguing about it.

they wanna round up 3 rooms of mobs, that's just less work for me. /shrug

(also, the jump spamming is waaaaay more annoying than the actual pulling, if I'm gonna keep it a buck)

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Yeah exactly, you're pulling it, so you're already tanking it until it's caught in my AOE. I don't need to have the mentality of it, because to be so dead-set on speeding through the dungeon, you have to possess the mentality to be willing to rush so far ahead so quickly to begin with lmao

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

eh. whatever. I've never been the YPYT type when I tank in roulettes.

I'm more of a "Yeah whatever, I'll just pull the mobs off you when I get there" guy,

people who run ahead and pull everything while spamming their jump button are kinda annoying, but not actually annoying enough to make a scene about, to be totally honest. it's far too easy to just rip aggro from them to waste time arguing about it.

they wanna round up 3 rooms of mobs, that's just less work for me. /shrug

(also, the jump spamming is waaaaay more annoying than the actual pulling, if I'm gonna keep it a buck)

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Let me guess they are playing as Miqote? It's usually them who spam jumps.

On a side note, letting someone pull is completely normal for me because that's the way to help and do it. Though I can't remember when it was the last time someone did that because I go super fast as a tank that I'm way ahead of everyone.

Dps should respect the tank and not pull either. It's just basic ettique imo. That being said, I think both kinds of behaviour are stupid personally. I don't really like it when dps pull when I'm tanking but I just get on with it.

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Originally Posted by LukaRoselia

Dps should respect the tank and not pull either.

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Tanks are not the de facto puller. They are usually the puller, yes, but anyone can pull.
There isn't any etiquette to respect here, other than the roles as assigned.

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Originally Posted by LukaRoselia

when I'm tanking but I just get on with it.

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This is the ideal, yes.

But yes, the tank is just an NPC and there is no fault of your own that YPYT is a thing in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Tanks are not the de facto puller. They are usually the puller, yes, but anyone can pull.
There isn't any etiquette to respect here, other than the roles as assigned.



This is the ideal, yes.

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There is etiquette but you choose to ignore it.

Yes it is wholly not my fault if you have a pointless ego trip and decide to engage in YPYT

When I tank if a DPS pulls for me I pull it off them and keep going, their HP being an effective piece of mitigation for me and all the movement still being maintained if I miss something

YPYT has zero benefits and is just an ego boost for no benefit and there is no etiquette other than “don’t let someone else die because you went on an ego trip”

Pulling as DPS has zero benefits and is just an ego boost that doesn't make the w2w faster than pulling as a tank, especially when the tank is capable.
It's just the DPS abusing range and gap closers.

Stop trying to reduce the Tank's role for your personal gain.

Any and all "arguments" DPS presented so far have no substance except blaming the tank.

Using the DPS’s health as mitigation is a benefit

Using the DPS mitigation to free up your own mitigation is a benefit

If a DPS pulls first the mobs group up allowing the tank to easily rip agro in one shot rather than running up first and missing spread out mobs that then fall behind. That grouping ability is a benefit. It also means the tank doesn’t have to waste GCD’s shield lobbing everything that is spread out and can just pick everything up in one shot

Healers generate extra resources off DPS taking extra damage such as SGE generating more toxicon stacks by pre shielding the tank and DPS, that is a benefit

It gives others a say in the overall speed of the run. A run shouldn’t be 5 minutes longer because the tank refuses to sprint. That is a benefit

Like if your first response to a DPS pulling isn’t to throw a tantrum there is plenty of benefits you can draw from it.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Using the DPS’s health as mitigation is a benefit

Using the DPS mitigation to free up your own mitigation is a benefit

If a DPS pulls first the mobs often group up allowing the tank to easily rip agro in one shot rather than running up first and missing spread out mobs that then fall behind. That grouping ability is a benefit

Healers generate extra resources off DPS taking extra damage such as SGE generating more toxicon stacks by pre shielding the tank and DPS, that is a benefit

Like if your first response to a DPS pulling isn’t to throw a tantrum there is plenty of benefits you can draw from it.

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Any and all Dungeons from HW onwards are a corridor, it's hard to miss any stray mobs, and even then I don't see how the DPS couldn't miss them. The only way this could be viable is in an early game dungeon, in wh9ch it is apparently okay for the tank to not pull w2w, at least until it isn't convienient like right now.

I also don't see how a healer would benefit from healing 2 people in one pull except just one.

Also what happened to your "Tank is OP, too many mits" argument?

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Originally Posted by TBerry

But yes, the tank is just an NPC and there is no fault of your own that YPYT is a thing in the first place.

There is etiquette but you choose to ignore it.

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There is etiquette and it doesn't include anything about pulling ahead of the tank. It does say plenty about letting other players die intentionally.

You're responsible for your own actions, not others. If a tank lets a DPS die because they pulled ahead, it's tank who took the decision of not taking the mobs, not the DPS.

Pulling ahead of the tank inconsequential in the 99.9% of the situations and the only reason YPYT exists is because certain kind of tank's egos. The kind of ego that makes up rules to justify griefing.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Any and all Dungeons from HW onwards are a corridor, it's hard to miss any stray mobs, and even then I don't see how the DPS couldn't miss them. The only way this could be viable is in an early game dungeon, in wh9ch it is apparently okay for the tank to not pull w2w, at least until it isn't convienient like right now.

I also don't see how a healer would benefit from healing 2 people in one pull except just one.

Also what happened to your "Tank is OP, too many mits" argument?

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Point 1) just because the mobs are in a straight line doesn’t mean that because of the way their are positioned and hitbox collision that it isn’t easy for some to slip through the cracks, especially if they are positioned in a way that an AOE can’t reach all in one GCD. Tanks often run up to 3-4 mobs spread out and try to AOE them in the centre missing one or two that redirect to a caster. If someone is ahead and grabs agro first then the mobs bunch up around that other player and the tank just grabs agro in one shot, also less wasted GCD’s using shield lob on stray mobs

Point 2) I literally explained that you. An example is toxicon stacks, pre shielding a DPS that then cracks the shield by pulling enemies is a direct benefit to SGE and if I’m playing SGE I WANT the DPS to do that as it’s a benefit to me

Point 3) literally nothing, tanks are OP. Doesn’t mean having even more mitigation by proxy of the DPS is a contradiction to me saying they are too strong. Saying “they have too much but having even more makes them stronger” is literally the foundation of that entire argument, it isn’t a contradiction in the slightest

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

There is etiquette and it doesn't include anything about pulling ahead of the tank. It does say plenty about letting other players die intentionally.

You're responsible for your own actions, not others. If a tank lets a DPS die because they pulled ahead, it's tank who took the decision of not taking the mobs, not the DPS.

Pulling ahead of the tank inconsequential in the 99.9% of the situations and the only reason YPYT exists is because certain kind of tank's egos. The kind of ego that makes up rules to justify griefing.

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It also doesn't say anything about the DPS pulling ahead. It's just etiquette and courtesy that the tank does.
Yeah I still don't see how this isn't a bad faith to justify playing to the detriment of others.

tbf the advantages of a dps pulling in a random group in casual content are obsolete.

its not a big deal when a dps pulls, but neither is it a big advantage in casual content.

i do think though rather than throwing a tantrum the tank should take it as critic for being too slow.

if you wanna take a close look at everything in the dungeon npcs might be the better choice for the first run.

exception: a tank in his very first dungeon. shame on the dps in that case.

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Originally Posted by Asari5

tbf the advantages of a dps pulling in a random group in casual content are obsolete.

its not a big deal when a dps pulls, but neither is it a big advantage in casual content.

i do think though rather than throwing a tantrum the tank should take it as critic for being too slow.

if you wanna take a close look at everything in the dungeon npcs might be the better choice for the first run.

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That would be true if the DPS wouldn't do it regardless of how fast the tank is. This thread is nothing more than excuses for DPS and an attempt to beat tank into submission.
It's bad faith aguments by sweatlords who cannot fathom that the game isn't just there to play optimal.

These people don't care about the rest of the group, they just want to have it their way.

I love how every pro YPYT argument comes down to “you just don’t care about the tank and want them to play how you want” but then the core of YPYT as an action is literally “play how I want or I’ll let you die”

Like why is the tank any more “important” in how they want to play. If the DPS wants to pull ahead and the tank doesn’t why is the tank more “right” in that case and the wishes of the tank should be respected, why not the DPS? If you want your gameplay or playing at your own pace to be respected you should also respect other people want to play at a different pace. Your game pace isn’t more important because it’s slower

Like unless you are in a situation where the tank wants to pull slow and the healer and DPS side with the tank and the other DPS pulls anyway which is just basic adherence to the will of the majority why is the tanks “opinion” on the actions of the rest of the party any more important than anyone else’s. Because the only argument I’ve ever heard about that just comes down a nebulous expectation of “courtesy” that pulling is naturally the tanks role despite nothing backing that up so from there somehow the pace the tank wants is the only expected consideration

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

There is etiquette and it doesn't include anything about pulling ahead of the tank. It does say plenty about letting other players die intentionally.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

It also doesn't say anything about the DPS pulling ahead. It's just etiquette and courtesy that the tank does.
Yeah I still don't see how this isn't a bad faith to justify playing to the detriment of others.

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You're saying there isn't any etiquette rules on DPS pulling ahead then? You realize you're saying exactly the same thing as me, do you? There is no set rule on etiquette that says a DPS shouldn't pull ahead of the tank. And there is no real detriment, other than some very specific players getting uppity about it, or advantage to it either. It's, like I said, inconsequential, meaning if you get upset over something like that, it's on you, not the others. And if you take it on the others by refusing to tank, the only person to blame and deserve the Dismiss vote is you.

Before trying to pin arguments as "bad faith" (saying an argument is in bad faith doesn't magically make it so), do try to actually read the arguments you're answering to.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

You're saying there isn't any etiquette rules on DPS pulling ahead then? You realize you're saying exactly the same thing as me, do you? There is no set rule on etiquette that says a DPS shouldn't pull ahead of the tank. And there is no real detriment, other than some very specific players getting uppity about it, or advantage to it either. It's, like I said, inconsequential, meaning if you get upset over something like that, it's on you, not the others. And if you take it on the others by refusing to tank, the only person to blame and deserve the Dismiss vote is you.

Before trying to pin arguments as "bad faith" (saying an argument is in bad faith doesn't magically make it so), do try to actually read the arguments you're answering to.

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Ah, a gotcha.
Gotcha.

Obviously it's either saying the same and agreeing or saying the opposite and agreeing.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Ah, a gotcha.
Gotcha.

Obviously it's either saying the ssame and agreeing or saying the opposite and agreeing.

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At the risk of repeating myself. Just because you point your finger and say what I say is a "gotcha" doesn't make that a "gotcha".

Not to mention absolutely nothing here addresses my points. What is even your goal there?