Cash shop confirmed

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Look back at 2.1-2.3 so far, most gear has been vanity as is, this way, they can actuall focus on adding more gear in-game that looks good and separate some of the ways you can obtain. What was the mantra of the FFXIV community?

"Give us options"

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I'm not sure the call for options was referencing the lack of variety in how we can obtain vanity gear. If so, my opinion of this community's intelligence just dropped a notch; they've added vanity gear in about every way possible.

The only aspect of gearing in which I've seen people calling in any sort of vocal fashion for options is end-game gear. Taking Yoshi-P at his word, I fail to see how the cash shop has positive bearing on this whatsoever - and obviously could have a negative effect if it leads SE to devote a larger percentage of their time to vanity items. For what it's worth, though, as someone who despises the idea of a cash shop, I don't think they're going to shift much focus towards vanity beyond what they already have, so I doubt we see a change in that regard.

Edit / Addition: Nevermind.

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Originally Posted by Nemhy

Except the game's economy and every single DoH/DoL class. Why invest so much effort melding your gear to tip-top shape to make cool items, when it can just be obtained for like $3?

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now you're assuming things. you should really just wait and see what happens rather than assume

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

now you're assuming things. you should really just wait and see what happens rather than assume

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He was commenting on Lord_Zlatan's post, which can be (and likely was) interpreted as advocating for the cash shop to offer non-vanity items as well (so long as they're alongside in-game options, rather than replacing them). There's not much of a way to dispute that such a move would have a negative impact on crafters, though I'm not sure how severe it would be.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

now you're assuming things. you should really just wait and see what happens rather than assume

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You seem to know how quotes work since you've used it yourself. Read my post again CAREFULLY and you will see that it was in reply to something. Not a general statement! =)

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

He was commenting on Lord_Zlatan's post, which can be (and likely was) interpreted as advocating for the cash shop to offer non-vanity items as well (so long as they're alongside in-game options, rather than replacing them). There's not much of a way to dispute that such a move would have a negative impact on crafters, though I'm not sure how severe it would be.

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Not even the non-vanity aspect! A lot of the cool looking stuff requires current tier max melds to achieve. A lot of crafters will not want to bother making such a large RNG heavy investment. When a large amount of players can/will buy the finished product for like $3

I don't spend real money on fluff. That said, it is none of my business if someone else does or not. I really don't care if they have a cash shop or not.

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Originally Posted by Magis

To give him some credit... how much do you think this is upper management and how much is Yoshi? Upper management fucked v1.0 with forcing them to use XIII's engine and putting an unfinished game onto the market because "we gotta beat WoW: Cata's release" so I wouldn't be surprised if they are doing it again here.

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I agree 100%. None of this should be blamed on Yoshi. It's entirely the fault of the same greedy pencil pushers that ruined 1.0, put microtransactions in Bravely Default's 'enhanced' edition, and green lit the money drain posing as a game that is All The Bravest.

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Originally Posted by Nemhy

Not even the non-vanity aspect! A lot of the cool looking stuff requires current tier max melds to achieve. A lot of crafters will not want to bother making such a large RNG heavy investment. When a large amount of players can/will buy the finished product for like $3

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Yea about that - Some of the best looking gear I've obtained came from Say, Hullbreaker Isle - Which crafter made that again?

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Originally Posted by Kyoraki

I agree 100%. None of this should be blamed on Yoshi. It's entirely the fault of the same greedy pencil pushers that ruined 1.0, put microtransactions in Bravely Default's 'enhanced' edition, and green lit the money drain posing as a game that is All The Bravest.

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This argument doesn't work when people said: "You can't completely blame Tanaka for the mess up of 1.0", yet people were adamant in blaming him. Yoshida has quite a large say so in what goes on with ARR, look at patches - he willingly delays them if even one small aspect isn't to his liking, meaning he does have quite the say so in what goes on. It could be upper management, sure, but Yoshida doesn't get pushed around, so he's not a victim.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Yea about that - Some of the best looking gear I've obtained came from Say, Hullbreaker Isle - Which crafter made that again?

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The kraken, duh. He pulls out his macros before everyone comes in and hands the made items to the minibosses too.

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

The kraken, duh.

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Well with all those arms I wouldn't doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Yea about that - Some of the best looking gear I've obtained came from Say, Hullbreaker Isle - Which crafter made that again?

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Originally Posted by Nemhy

A lot of the cool looking stuff requires current tier max melds to achieve.

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Clear said "a lot" not EVERY good looking item. Just because someone (in this case myself) say a lot of cool looking items come from crafting doesn't mean everything that is non-crafted looks like poop. Which is what you're implying I said anyway, apologies if that is not the case.

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Originally Posted by Nemhy

Clear said "a lot" not EVERY good looking item. Just because someone (in this case myself) say a lot of cool looking items come from crafting doesn't mean everything that is non-crafted looks like poop. Which is what you're implying I said anyway, apologies if that is not the case.

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Erm, I said Some, not every..you actually spun what I wrote into saying I implied that.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

This argument doesn't work when people said: "You can't completely blame Tanaka for the mess up of 1.0", yet people were adamant in blaming him. Yoshida has quite a large say so in what goes on with ARR, look at patches - he willingly delays them if even one small aspect isn't to his liking, meaning he does have quite the say so in what goes on. It could be upper management, sure, but Yoshida doesn't get pushed around, so he's not a victim.

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Perhaps. But I'd say there's a bigger divide between developing a game that flat out doesn't work, and failing to stop upper management from bleeding the customer dry. Tanaka was directly responsible for producing a game that's near unplayable. I'd assume Yoshi gets a lot less over how the game is monetised.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m41nya6Opf1qzvtrn.gif

As long as none of it provides content advantage, I'm all for SE trying to make profit.

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Originally Posted by seida

Free? I'm sorry, what do you think the monthly sub is for? That reasoning is ridiculous.

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So you think minimum wage is enough to pay your bills and life style? You do know to keep a business successful and updated is through funding. And funding is not a one way street by us Just paying a monthly fee. When you pay rent what are you paying for? At the end you still end up paying you rent plus your food, clothes etc. So you sound ridiculous! So dont be that driver who sits in the back seat and telling the driver where to go:)
Heck this thread forum we using aint free! Just because you aint paying the server we are all using does not mean its fee.

Buy or don't buy

Renew subscription or don't renew

/end thread

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Originally Posted by AnuheaLani

So you think minimum wage is enough to pay your bills and life style? You do know to keep a business successful and updated is through funding. And funding is not a one way street by us Just paying a monthly fee. When you pay rent what are you paying for? At the end you still end up paying you rent plus your food, clothes etc. So you sound ridiculous! So dont be that driver who sits in the back seat and telling the driver where to go:)
Heck this thread forum we using aint free! Just because you aint paying the server we are all using does not mean its fee.

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So, why no cash shop at launch then? Back then both the trust in the game and their financial situation was even worse and they needed even more funds, more funds than a simple sub fee would cover, so why not announce all this way back then? By doing it now it's just clear they wanted to gain everyone's trust, announcing how the P2P model was the way to go and how a cash shop based model was bad for everyone because of the choices devs have to make whether to put an item in game or in the shop. They mentioned this in a couple of interviews, only to turn around and bait and switch yet again.

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Originally Posted by AnuheaLani

So you think minimum wage is enough to pay your bills and life style? You do know to keep a business successful and updated is through funding. And funding is not a one way street by us Just paying a monthly fee. When you pay rent what are you paying for? At the end you still end up paying you rent plus your food, clothes etc. So you sound ridiculous! So dont be that driver who sits in the back seat and telling the driver where to go:)
Heck this thread forum we using aint free! Just because you aint paying the server we are all using does not mean its fee.

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where were you guys in 1.0 when they asked for help?

No Cash Shop!!!

It is horribly immersion ruining when there are things in the game that are not obtained in game.
Not to mention it's tacky as a smartphone/face book mini game. YUCK!

me: "oh cute minion! where did you get that? What quest line? :O"
random player: "I paid for a code on cash shop and got it in my delivery box..."
me: "uh.. huh..."

I mean... if you go to a restaurant and pay for a meal - you expect what's included in the meal. An extra side of beans will cost extra. Because it's not included in the meal.

Just because they have the side of beans already cooked hot-and-ready and you paid for a meal doesn't mean you can have extra beans without paying more.

Not getting extra beans doesn't reduce the amount of food in the meal you paid for - and it doesn't take anything away.
The restaurant doesn't owe you a free side of beans just because you paid for a meal and saw they had some beans and wanted beans even though beans aren't part of the meal you paid for.

Cash shop is the extra side of beans.


Beans.




















edit: Beans!

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Originally Posted by Dhex

I mean... if you go to a restaurant and pay for a meal - you expect what's included in the meal. An extra side of beans will cost extra. Because it's not included in the meal.

Just because they have the side of beans already cooked hot-and-ready and you paid for a meal doesn't mean you can have extra beans without paying more.

Not getting extra beans doesn't reduce the amount of food in the meal you paid for - and it doesn't take anything away.
The restaurant doesn't owe you a free side of beans just because you paid for a meal and saw they had some beans and wanted beans even though beans aren't part of the meal you paid for.

Cash shop is the extra side of beans.

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But if the amount of beans you normally get is reduced, then you start to wonder whether or not it was because they're trying to encourage you to pay more for the same amount of food we got before.

And with this game, it's not some static plate like chicken & beans where you can easily quantify whether you're getting the same product you got before because this game is ever changing. What happens if they don't realease as many minions, mounts, or vanity pieces before? You can start to question their motivations. Make one of those insanely difficult/random/grindy to get? You start to wonder. What if the stuff they give us as part of the package we already paid for is deemed to be substandard quality, but the "premium" pieces all look really cool? Again, you can wonder.

And even if they were able to keep up the quality/quantity of vanity items in addition to the ca$h $hop offerings, the wondering or the doubt or the lack of trust can and will degrade the experience for some people of the product they are currently already paying for.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Beans.

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But beans are my favourite! I'm not a fan of meat especially and I eat all the rest of the vegetables in the meal quite quickly. Getting through all of those beans is a great part of the meal!

And the beans have been part of the meal since the restaurant opened. I love the restaurant. I'm not going to stop coming to the restaurant because they want to charge me extra for those lovely beans, but it's another strike against them.

Just like the other month when they said they were going to get beer on tap as an alternative to the the coffee we'd been drinking over the last year, but we turned up on the beer day and it turned out they'd decided to only serve decaf instead.

What if it's a buffet?

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

But if the amount of beans you normally get is reduced, then you start to wonder whether or not it was because they're trying to encourage you to pay more for the same amount of food we got before.

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Here's the problem - what "we got before" has always been inconsistent, sometimes never getting a minion until another event or content concept strolls around. So in this comparison, SE isn't taking anything away to encourage us to buy it in cash shop, because even vanity armor wise, it's usually always been the regular amount of sets for DoW/M...what are they gonna do? Suddenly only offer DoW or DoM set and make you buy the other? Not happening lol.

It's plain obvious now that food is the universal language....

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Originally Posted by Erudain

It's plain obvious now that food is the universal language....

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I figured a food metaphor would work to explain it best.

It's the same as a side dish or an extra large soda to me.

edit: They're even priced similarly. :p

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Here's the problem - what "we got before" has always been inconsistent, sometimes never getting a minion until another event or content concept strolls around. So in this comparison, SE isn't taking anything away to encourage us to buy it in cash shop, because even vanity armor wise, it's usually always been the regular amount of sets for DoW/M...what are they gonna do? Suddenly only offer DoW or DoM set and make you buy the other? Not happening lol.

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They could offer boring DoM/DoW sets and offer much more aesthetically interesting sets via the premium shop. Now on the one hand, you could say that "premium" items you have to pay extra for should be better, but you might also wonder if they're not putting as much effort into the stock DoM/DoW sets since they would prefer you buy the premium sets.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

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The forums, the actual software, are hateful because of the post limit and the character limit some of us suffer from. Totally unnacceptable in my book. And no worries, I've had my own issue to deal with as I just said.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

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They never said that it was temporary. They never even hinted at it. They just did it and acted like it was totally normal/standard practice just as it was/is in FFXI. It is well within my rights as a customer to upset and concerned at such a sudden change in practices.

Gods damned character limit!
(continued)

(Continued)

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

Sunipu

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Look the Collector's Editions for the PS3 and PS4 both have physical collector's editions that fall under the same category as merch. They come with a bunch of physical goodies after all. The digital CE exists to give PC players a chance to own a "Collector's Edition" of sorts since many of us don't own or want to pay a separate license for, especially given that one seems to be an inferior(the PS3) platform.

@ the other general thing:

I think there is no problem with the idea of a vanity cash shop so long as it is not the only option for the vanity offered within, whether it is seasonal (but recurring!), or time consuming.

And before someone cries "P2W!!11!!1!," as someone for whom vanity IS winning I don't mind what SE sells to those interesting in buying so long as they allow me the option to play to earn it instead. If you are going to make it SHOP ONLY, you better go F2P and give me shop credit for my subscription!

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Originally Posted by Negotiator

where were you guys in 1.0 when they asked for help?

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Where was I? I was on XI cause XIV sucked at that time. And they lost money did they not? And now reborn came out im sure it costed allot for a reboot.

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Originally Posted by RaddCuban

The forums, the actual software, are hateful because of the post limit and the character limit some of us suffer from. Totally unnacceptable in my book. And no worries, I've had my own issue to deal with as I just said.

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I'm with you. I don't think I've heard a really satisfactory answer for why they do it. If someone was spam posting, then a GM should step in. The post limit is a really ham-fisted way to deal with that.

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Originally Posted by RaddCuban

They never said that it was temporary. They never even hinted at it. They just did it and acted like it was totally normal/standard practice just as it was/is in FFXI. It is well within my rights as a customer to upset and concerned at such a sudden change in practices.

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Okay, so I wasn't hallucinating. Some people are suggesting it was temporary. Last year the first thing that I thought when I saw you could get past holiday stuff was "SWEET! That's a great way to do it!". When they announced a cash store I envisioned it like Blizzards with a few minions and a mount or two to start with the eventual trickle of some glamours, a minion here and there, and once in a long while a new mount. The holiday stuff threw me.

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Originally Posted by RaddCuban

Look the Collector's Editions for the PS3 and PS4 both have physical collector's editions that fall under the same category as merch. They come with a bunch of physical goodies after all. The digital CE exists to give PC players a chance to own a "Collector's Edition" of sorts since many of us don't own or want to pay a separate license for, especially given that one seems to be an inferior(the PS3) platform.

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Fair point. The digital CE is the same then. For me, I'll lump the physical edition in there, but others won't and I get that.

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I think there is no problem with the idea of a vanity cash shop so long as it is not the only option for the vanity offered within, whether it is seasonal (but recurring!), or time consuming.

And before someone cries "P2W!!11!!1!," as someone for whom vanity IS winning I don't mind what SE sells to those interesting in buying so long as they allow me the option to play to earn it instead. If you are going to make it SHOP ONLY, you better go F2P and give me shop credit for my subscription!

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I fall into the camp that, as long as it's limited in scope, I'm okay with it. Even if those items are exclusive as long as the price isn't excessive and there isn't a suspicious overabundance of content. That latter bit would tell me that they're leaning the wrong way. They can do p2p with a shop. It's been done and it can be done here to. It just requires SE to put the bulk of the vanity content in game and make the store stuff the candles rather than the icing or the cake.

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Originally Posted by Erudain

It's plain obvious now that food is the universal language....

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...I just used a food metaphor, didn't I? <looks away in shame>

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Here's the problem - what "we got before" has always been inconsistent, sometimes never getting a minion until another event or content concept strolls around. So in this comparison, SE isn't taking anything away to encourage us to buy it in cash shop, because even vanity armor wise, it's usually always been the regular amount of sets for DoW/M...what are they gonna do? Suddenly only offer DoW or DoM set and make you buy the other? Not happening lol.

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I agree to an extent. I don't think we can effectively judge the cash shop's influence based on how much (or what type) of content gets released. All we can say for a certainty is that it gives SE a strong incentive to continue developing nontrivial amounts of vanity gear, which is what they have been doing anyway of late.

There are more concrete reasons to be in favour of, or against, its presence.

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Originally Posted by AnuheaLani

Where was I? I was on XI cause XIV sucked at that time. And they lost money did they not? And now reborn came out im sure it costed allot for a reboot.

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Exactly! Some of us spent way more time and money through the crappy times to help them out to make it better and they did IMO. It's a success, do i have to post a link again??? google it. Now they want cash for old rewards when YP has given interviews justifying a subscription over f2p and cash shops. There is already merchandising for physical goodies, but more more more right? It's ok. Our constant subscription isn't enough to give us these things in game now? No word about a cash shop until a week before it goes live. btw, i don't consider anything "free" since we are already paying.

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Originally Posted by AnuheaLani

Where was I? I was on XI cause XIV sucked at that time. And they lost money did they not? And now reborn came out im sure it costed allot for a reboot.

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The point is for those who continually argue this cash shop is good for the company didn't care about that concern back in 1.0. In general, if this massive outcry to support the cash shop was there to support the game, there wouldn't have been any need for SE to reach out to their legacy members.

The game is doing well. It's brought in profits and helped the company. A full year of subscriptions have seemingly provided enough money for a full year of patch content, an expansion, and a beautiful fan festival. I'm not saying anti cash shop, but some of the arguments being made in support of it don't really follow in line with the progress of the game and attitudes of players in the past. ^^

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Originally Posted by Negotiator

Exactly! Some of us spent way more time and money through the crappy times to help them out to make it better and they did IMO. It's a success, do i have to post a link again??? google it. Now they want cash for old rewards when YP has given interviews justifying a subscription over f2p and cash shops. There is already merchandising for physical goodies, but more more more right? It's ok. Our constant subscription isn't enough to give us these things in game now? No word about a cash shop until a week before it goes live. btw, i don't consider anything "free" since we are already paying.

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Do we seriously need to link the User Agreement again so that people can read what their subscription is for ?

By the way, in the exact same link that you posted:

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Originally Posted by Yoshi P

To get as many people in the world to play the game, having it available for free is an effective method. We’d need to gauge the response and the needs of the market but we could consider free-to-play.

There are people already subscribed to the game but they still ask for us to sell them certain items. The needs of players are changing and it’s not a difference of which business model is right or wrong, but our goal is to cater to the needs of the players.

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It's fun how strongly some people support this cash shop. You are going to keep paying them the usual monthly fee to develop stuff accessible only paying them more, instead of being put in game as before with no additional cost. Wake up.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Do we seriously need to link the User Agreement again so that people can read what their subscription is for ?

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y'know when I have to talk to a customer service rep, that spouts nothing but the text he's supposed to tell me? I demand a manager that can make changes.
There are also laws written very clearly, but there's always ways to overturn them. Did you know certain people didn't have rights? How did things change if they just laid down or bent over?
We might not be able to stop the cash shop, but we can be sure our dissatisfaction will be heard.

You can take the agreement, obey it and keep repeating it.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Do we seriously need to link the User Agreement again so that people can read what their subscription is for ?

By the way, in the exact same link that you posted:

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In fairness, virtually every subscription has the same wording in the User Agreement. All that does is define SE's legal rights. It should rightly be considered distinct from what the "effective" subscription model implies, in comparison to the F2P / microtransaction model. What SE is doing is merging the two models in certain ways; some people are fine with that, and some people aren't.

Either way, using a document detailing our legal rights as consumers to criticize someone's view of how various MMO business models "should" work is completely asinine. The two have no bearing on each other whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

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1000 characters a post is all I can say. :(

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

Skip one point and snip

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Then we agree to disagree it would seem. It was made to target some people, but they are not the only ones that will uses it. Those that were targeted will generally see it differently than those who were not.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

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As a nascent minion hoarder and rabid Odin fanboy, the minions and mount were like daggers to the heart and kidneys. They sure can do p2p with a shop, but the thing is that no matter what they put in it so long as it remains exclusive it will severely impact the game lives of certain less affluent or more miserly players.

(By the twelve, this character limit is going to drive me to suicide! Con--friggin'--tinued!)

(May whoever thought a 1000 characters was a good idea stub his toe for every last unnecessary post it has created. Continued)

The wider variety of things that ends up in there, even if moderate to small by comparison to the rest of the content, the more that number will grow. It is obvious that they try to cater to the collector crowd, and I'm happy for that, but trying to abuse us is where I draw the line. What am I supposed to do if I decide I want to try another race or server but don't want to abandon my current one? Cry myself to sleep over all the vanity I would have to repurchase?

P.S. You guys, this is making me hungry.

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Originally Posted by RaddCuban

(May whoever thought a 1000 characters was a good idea stub his toe for every last unnecessary post it has created. Continued)

The wider variety of things that ends up in there, even if moderate to small by comparison to the rest of the content, the more that number will grow. It is obvious that they try to cater to the collector crowd, and I'm happy for that, but trying to abuse us is where I draw the line. What am I supposed to do if I decide I want to try another race or server but don't want to abandon my current one? Cry myself to sleep over all the vanity I would have to repurchase?

P.S. You guys, this is making me hungry.

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Just so you know, you can go past the 1000 character limit by editing the post to add the extra. If I'm going to go over, I usually type my entire response out, copy it to clipboard. Then cut down till I'm below the 1000, post, then edit it and paste it all back in.