If you are a WHM without Swiftcast, you are holding back your team at endgame

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Actually, I do Titan donation runs and people dying before Heart (while it rarely occurs, everyone knows the fight backwards and forwards, but everyone gets the occasional lag spike) doesn't have any noticable impact to us. Insta rez whenever, accept rez as soon as plumes appear on the ground. You always have 3-4 GCDs (depending on phase) before stomps. More than enough time to get them sorted.

And that's the difference: No swiftcast (In your own words) If you die in Titan 90% of the time it's over. With swiftcast, it's a minor inconvenience.

Yes, KB has unavoidable AOE floor damage, but hard raise followed by insta-cast cure 2 and they're fine (especially with 5s invulnerability now) or insta cast raise followed by other healer insta casting Cure 2 and you're good again.

Honestly, I don't think I could think up better examples of how SC is useful than those you posited about how it isn't.

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I don't follow, you just said that someone dying doesn't have any noticiable impact to you, as such having that person there or not is insignificant, the only difference between alive and dead then is the use of a costly spell and the MP cost to get them up

In example two, you just outlined that you had to use the wonderful spell TWICE in order to save the comrade, but does not pose the significance of doing this. Did they then march right into combat? or sort of huddle out of sight/mind so as not to die again?

Hard Rez + insta cure is a recipe for healing yourself :), but that's another argument. If you could hard rez a person, surely you could hard cast Cure, or Cure II, and save Swiftcast for .. i dunno holy?

Both examples are situations where it is a luxury to raise someone, and does not 'let the team down' by not having it. 90% of the people agree that regardless of alive/dead, if you die before the heart phase, it's pretty much a wipe (which is silly, I agree, but mindset says).

I just personally find that being dead (or alive and weakened) to be much more crippling than not having swiftcast, and that no one should be told that they are letting the team down, but that they can more easily benefit from the skill and practice.

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

I dont know what world you live in but someone coming with all their cross class skills is not going to make me think they are a team player. For me its more the attitude they bring and how well they can sync with everyone, and a lot more i dont think you would understand anyway.

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Lmao keep trying to patronise me bro, you're the one who thinks lack of prepardness, arrogance and lazyness are not signs of a bad team player, because that's what you're defending in this thread. No seriously keep going, you're really good at this :)

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Originally Posted by KHShadowrunner

I don't follow, you just said that someone dying doesn't have any noticiable impact to you, as such having that person there or not is insignificant, the only difference between alive and dead then is the use of a costly spell and the MP cost to get them up

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Sorry if it wasn't clear; a person dying has no noticable impact, a person remaining dead can scupper a run.

It's not noticable because we can get them back on their feet easily and keep them there. A healer without swiftcast has to spend a significant amount of time not healing the tank to do this, with a well co-ordinated team, this is recoverable too (though I don't know at what point a healer should start casting raise without swiftcast to be guaranteed not to have to move and interrupt it. To be frank, I've never needed to know) through use of tank CDs and cure II/medica spam by the non-rezzing healer, but it's not as easy.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Lmao keep trying to patronise me bro, you're the one who thinks lack of prepardness, arrogance and lazyness are not signs of a bad team player, because that's what you're defending in this thread. No seriously keep going, you're really good at this :)

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Alright continue to see things how you want to, cant help that. I see logic and reading aernt your strong points.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Sorry if it wasn't clear; a person dying has no noticable impact, a person remaining dead can scupper a run.

It's not noticable because we can get them back on their feet easily and keep them there. A healer without swiftcast has to spend a significant amount of time not healing the tank to do this, with a well co-ordinated team, this is recoverable too (though I don't know at what point a healer should start casting raise without swiftcast to be guaranteed not to have to move and interrupt it. To be frank, I've never needed to know) through use of tank CDs and cure II/medica spam by the non-rezzing healer, but it's not as easy.

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Agreed, the time is pre-emptively knowing what attack is next and when to cast it ( hardcast raise right after you've moved out of plumes and from a position that you know the bombs wont hit you, move if landslide makes you loller). The argument is that it is not required, it does not 'let the team down' any more than being dead in the first place does (it's just a different strategy)

Anything gained is useful, except a debuff lol. No arguing that. Just the way to deliver a message could be much more... rewarding.

Also - I like how quotation counts towards the character limit, but only if you actually enter a character first, otherwise your response is less than 10 characters.

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Originally Posted by KHShadowrunner

Agreed, the time is pre-emptively knowing what attack is next and when to cast it ( hardcast raise right after you've moved out of plumes and from a position that you know the bombs wont hit you, move if landslide makes you loller). The argument is that it is not required, it does not 'let the team down' any more than being dead in the first place does (it's just a different strategy).

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Landslide is the problem. I'm not sure there's a time when you can guarantee not to be hit by it while raising. And if you have to move then you are doubling the time it takes to raise that person thereby doubling the time the rest of the party is going without heals.

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Originally Posted by KHShadowrunner

Anything gained is useful, except a debuff lol. No arguing that. Just the way to deliver a message could be much more... rewarding.

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Like I said earlier; feel free to be upset by the way the message was put, but don't let that stop you actually getting the ability. It's one of the most useful abilities in the game. It can be used variously to insta cast pets, insta raise, insta CC, increase in HPS and increase in DPS. The point should be made forcefully because ignoring this ability, which takes at most an afternoon or two to get, should not be accepted by the wider healing community.

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Originally Posted by Shizato

useful =/= required... no one is arguing that it is not useful, they are pointing out that its not required by healers at any point in the game

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Depends on how you define "required." I prefer casters w/ Swiftcast to those without and will pick the former for parties over the latter. So I guess no, it is not required. Unless getting into parties is important to you.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Landslide is the problem. I'm not sure there's a time when you can guarantee not to be hit by it while raising. And if you have to move then you are doubling the time it takes to raise that person thereby doubling the time the rest of the party is going without heals.

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If you have to move for landslide, you plan your raise accordingly. No one should be taking damage from plumes or landslide (or bombs), if they are, wasting MP on raise is already a bad idea, and that swift cast can instead be used for the needed Medica II/Medica/Succor come time for the stompies. All about planning (I mean, you have to do it already, if you've already used swiftcast and a person dies. Swiftcast is fantastic, but having to wait that extra minute might mean the end if you rely on it)

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Like I said earlier; feel free to be upset by the way the message was put, but don't let that stop you actually getting the ability. It's one of the most useful abilities in the game. It can be used variously to insta cast pets, insta raise, insta CC, increase in HPS and increase in DPS. The point should be made forcefully because ignoring this ability, which takes at most an afternoon or two to get, should not be accepted by the wider healing community.

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Agreed, just comes back to why some are defending it. (for some it will take considerable investment, not one or two afternoons, but that depends on the person). Forcefully is even ok, but demeaning someone and insulting them because they dont? Far from what is needed in a community.

What I mean is - if you literally took your one line, and replaced the title with 'White Mages/Scholars, Swiftcast is beyond useful' and the body said 'It's one of the most useful abilities in the game. It can be used variously to insta cast pets, insta raise, insta CC, increase in HPS and increase in DPS.' followed by some helpful tidbit, I'd bet a dollar that this entire thread would have gone completely different.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

Depends on how you define "required." I prefer casters w/ Swiftcast to those without and will pick the former for parties over the latter. So I guess no, it is not required. Unless getting into parties is important to you.

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Ive seen parties crumble even with what they term the best party makeup, gear, skills, food, etc. So with more people with that thinking it doesn't surprise me.

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Originally Posted by KHShadowrunner

If you have to move for landslide, you plan your raise accordingly. No one should be taking damage from plumes or landslide (or bombs), if they are, wasting MP on raise is already a bad idea, and that swift cast can instead be used for the needed Medica II/Medica/Succor come time for the stompies. All about planning (I mean, you have to do it already, if you've already used swiftcast and a person dies. Swiftcast is fantastic, but having to wait that extra minute might mean the end if you rely on it)

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The tank will always be taking damage. Table flip in particular must be healed immediately after. But what if the dead person is the other healer? Solo healing through phase 5 stomps and keeping tank alive is extremely difficult unless you are very overgeared. Getting the other healer up is the difference between wipe and win. There is no moment in phase 5 where it is safe to hardcast raise.

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Originally Posted by KHShadowrunner

Agreed, just comes back to why some are defending it. (for some it will take considerable investment, not one or two afternoons, but that depends on the person). Forcefully is even ok, but demeaning someone and insulting them because they dont? Far from what is needed in a community.

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The problem is, people in here are getting defensive about it to the extent that they are saying it's not required, that it's a luxury. New healers wanting to do well could very well read the thread and come to the conclusion that they shouldn't be expected to get the ability. It's a luxury in the same way Provoke is a luxury: technically you can do your job without it, but damn if you aren't making your life and your parties' lives that much harder..

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Originally Posted by KHShadowrunner

What I mean is - if you literally took your one line, and replaced the title with 'White Mages/Scholars, Swiftcast is beyond useful' and the body said 'It's one of the most useful abilities in the game. It can be used variously to insta cast pets, insta raise, insta CC, increase in HPS and increase in DPS.' followed by some helpful tidbit, I'd bet a dollar that this entire thread would have gone completely different.

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That's because I'm awesome.