No. Melees actually press less buttons when they're away from the boss(which is pretty much never since everyone has full uptime now), otherwise it's ranged attack spam. Otherwise the number stays the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopstix
WHM's "burst" is that you get to press Glare even more. SCH's is pressing energy drain 3 times more. AST's is locked behind an RNG system that can't work reliably, and gives you a meager 5% buff. Sage is press Phlegma 2 times and go back to break your keycap. That's not good enough. For no one here.
WHM and AST had 3 dots, all with different timers. Aero III was AoE, even, which means you could also do more than Holy spam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopstix
SCH had 6. One melee AoE, one targetable zone spell, with Bane to spread them on everyone. Dungeons with SCH was a real joy because your damage was significant and it felt really good to pull off contiunually. Now, it's one single button. It's boring.
And actually, I'll go a bit further. WAR and DRK got their Fell Cleave/Bloodspiller spam reduced to 3 after the many complaints regarding it. Because you know, pressing a single button, be rotation or burst, is boring. We had more than that before. I want more to do. You're free to ignore it if you don't want to use it.
I want to do more than pressing Glare. This isn't too much to ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopstix
It's the same during prog. You may use less heal oGCDS ( You know, where all of your healing is pretty much ), but Glare will be most of what your APM is. There is no way around it. It's just boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopstix
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02-24-2022, 11:05 AMDoragan
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02-24-2022, 11:10 AMChopstixengaging gameplay, ill give u that, my misunderstanding sorryQuote:
Originally Posted by WaxSw
on a different note, ur war example is not the strongest ... id look at it from a 123 perspective how often that is used, so lets do some maths (im ganna equate path and eye as the same 123 here)
5.1 + 5.1 + 3.3 + 1.9 = 15.4 CPM on just 123 alone u can do like 24-25 GCDs in a minute depeding on skill speed so ill just take an average of 24.5 here ... therefore a warrior is spamming 123 62.9% of the time (15.4/24.5), if u add in fell cleave as well (like say healer dot as a 2nd button, remember im equating 123 as essentially one button, exact same monotony) then a warrior does 123 and fell cleave 15.4 + 5.4 = 20.8 or 85.9% of the time
in the case of the paladin, it is a 100% static rotation, i guess u could call that pretty mindless too depending on perspective
u missed GBR and DRK, they spam their 123 and the main gauge spender probably as often as warrior, if not even more ... actually all the DRK GCDs r either 123 or bloodspiller so that is essentially 2 things 100% of the time, GBR is bit more varied as they have the gnashing fang combo twice a minute
damn, maybe i should start a tank thread too for more dmg abilities :P -
02-24-2022, 11:14 AMQooErthese 2 go hand in hand. every job has a lot less to do in downtime, yes, but its a matter of magnitude here. lets use the dot example. instead of spending 2 minutes staring at the cooldown of "my shinies" spamming my nuke and refreshing my dot, id have to at least track the 30s timer and a 24s timer in the case of scholar. or a 24s and 18s timer like SB whm. it may not sound like much but it makes it feel so much less monotonousQuote:
Originally Posted by Chopstix
youre right they dont, but that doesnt mean it has to be as barebones as it is. even the npcs you play as during msq duties have more of a rotation than healers do now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopstix
2 or 3 extra buttons is far from "absolutely insane", and is enough for moderately entertaining gameplay. even 1 more skill that is just a proc would be better than what we have. moreover theres actual bloat that can be consolidated to accomodate the extra space (like play/crown play for example)
i think its fine to have 1 healer that plays like this. i play sage when i do dungeons cuz i dont want to bother with asts cards n stuff in expert roulette. but surely they could get more creative with 4 jobs to please more people? -
02-24-2022, 11:14 AMChopstixsorry by downtime i meant the period between burst windows, not forced downtime such as being forced away from boss or not even being able to hit anythingQuote:
Originally Posted by Doragan
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02-24-2022, 11:21 AMDoraganNo worries. I had a feeling that's what you meant, but I think it still applies. It's more buttons/actions to do. I know I'm going to repeat myself here, but any other tank/dps will have more variety than a healer. By a wide margin, at all times. Even Bard that really needs you to hit that Burst shot all the time, you got procs, oGCDs and dots to refresh and keep track of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopstix
Compare that to WHM, on CD Assize, maybe place Asylum on the floor (all oGCDs of course so you weave them), then back to Glaring. -
02-24-2022, 11:45 AMMinarisweet
What's with the forums always playing devil's advocate?
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02-24-2022, 06:00 PMFloortankSome people agree with the producer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minarisweet
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02-24-2022, 06:49 PMAiscence
Ultimate fights are overrated imo. it's just a 16-19 minutes tier 4 savage fight instead of a 10 minute one. Dps check were always laughable in most phases of ultimates: you kill on enrage the first time then for some reason kill it 20 seconds earlier with 1 death on the next one. Most of the difficulty comes from mechanics just one shotting you so you waste time, the mechanics themselves are nothing special: we died, is it a light party stack on both healers or a th/dps one, maybe it's a tanks and 6p stack, maybe it s not a stack and it s on both tanks, who knows, let's waste 2 hours trying them then never fail it again.
Your job don't magically becomes more complicated or interesting because it's ultimate either, you need to play it well to kill the 4th savage fight anyway, if your job is uninteresting on a random trial, it wont become more interesting on a 16minute version of it. -
02-24-2022, 07:05 PMWaxSw1-Go and say that to a blm who has a fuck ton of line of optimization, or a sam who has to manage filler to align with raid buffs, a nin who can optimize their ninjustsus to get uptime a rdm that has to manage procs with melee combo, that differentiation of pressing buttons or not is a healer problem that do not happen in other rolesQuote:
Originally Posted by Ixon
2-Its not only forums in other social media there were people saying that but THATS THE POINT, people were saying bullshit that does not represent the reality due to lack of knowledge, same happens with curebots and why what they say should have a much lesser value than what more experienced players say, because the knowledge they have does not represent the reality.
3-Go to the images I posted pls, watch how "different" is from other healers, sge has good points and for pulls if played casually can feel different than other healers, past that is the same.
4.1-LOL, ok you dont know about good mitigation then, optimal alignment of mitigation is key, reducing damage as much as possible to no exhaust healing resources fast, there are tank exclusive mechanics like the tankswaps, add management, picking tethers (p3s), in the same way healers have to do their own shit. Someone dies and healer have to rez? Thats pressing one button to pick them up and in normal content people can stay dead for a while to be rez when the moment comes, if an MT dies you better pray for the OT grab the aggro quick with provoke, if someone gets hit you just throw him an ogcd heal of the super bloated kit every has and its done. Mistakes do not hurt in normal mode cause is braindead and in hard modes theyre either death sentences (which can mean a wipe) that can be recovered with the press of a button or simply ignored cause the outcoming damage is so low is laughable, you're really making it sound way harder than it really is when healers do barely need to heal, once again look at the cast I posted.
4.2-Still speaks about how low the healing requirements are when the tank sustain + dps sustain is more than enough to compensate for what a healers should have to do, and I havent mentioned P1n I've mentioned P1S which has been cleared with a party of 8 tanks, not only that but exs are consistently being farmed with 1 healer max cause its more optimal that way, healing is not hard and barely required and well ofc the whole War+3dps has been the dungeon speedrun meta for the 3rd year straight, tank healing is not low.
The Dev team is simply out of touch with how healers work, this is not a war against healer fun or doing that "for the casuals" anymore this is straight up "we do not know what to do" like when they designed the dumbing down of healers in Shb which no one asked for, how they removed ED from Sch in 5.0 breaking the kit even tough we told them and had to be added back in 5.05, how they nerfed energy drain later on so "Sch uses aetherflow heals more" completely missing the point cause Sch didnt use more aetherflow heals with that, how YoshiP said back in SB that they nerfed Sch cause they made their cohealer heal more when the logs showed that Sch was the highest hps healer or stuff like how this expansion broke Whm mp economy with an unasked thin air change and missery did not acount for the increased damage of glare 3 or how holy 3 did not get the reduction cast every single healer damage spell got. However this is not a misinterpretation of YoshiP to begin with, he said that but the question they read was misinterpreted (with or without malice) as it wasnt asking for difficulty but engagement and as said previously, more downtime options would only help, if people is casual they can still do they cure1 2 and medicas and keep up while they can, midcore audience have something to strive for and hardcore players have engaging gameplay in all bits of content, the only people fucked would be those who just want to play healer cause that way they can play hard content without putting effort. -
02-24-2022, 07:18 PMWaxSwYou know, the thing is those 1-2-3 have interactions thats why they can't be compared to healer 1s, using War as example after using 1 has to press 2 which is not much but breaks the monothony and gives gauge which is another interaction more, after that they are presented with the option to either press 3 or 4 both with different gauge gains, different effects and different potencies, if we compared with the sage for example after pressing dosis they have no other button to press that its not dosis, doesnt interact with anything on the kit and does not present any choice until you press it 10-11 times to refresh the dot thats why its not the same, one while simple still works as an engine for the kit, its frequency is higher and still throws some curved balls here and there the other is all the same and the only thing that breaks it happens with such a low frequency and presents so little thought that barely breaks it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopstix
Pld rotation is static but can be adjusted, cooldowns can be aligned and is extremely varied as different phases give different boons, once again you cant compare that for healers which are nowhere close to that.
Didnt add Gnb and Drk cause those logs are from my static and well... we dont have those tanks but Drk suffers from a more repetitive rotation than War which a lot of Drks have complained about (its not only the sustain) and even when taking that into consideration still offers more depth than healer's as it generate both mp and gauge both meters core for Drk in order to execute their more powerfull attacks or some of its oGCDs and mitigation. Gnb is a completely different beast with continuation as it would be the most pressed button of all and has much more resources to keep track off than any healer has.
Also to add to that, save from Drk and War tanks are played differently, hence why these discussion exists while for the healer role the gameplay is basically the same for the most part no matter which healer you play