When are we supposed to stop fighting?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

That's exactly what the evidence points to. Yes Venat wanted to sunder and bind Zodiark, but that wasn't the only thing she wanted to do, her intent was to sunder the star and mankind as well.

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The star is the more debatable part, but since she must've been told of how the star came to be divided into reflections, we can only assume she considered this to be an acceptable risk/cost of her fight with Zodiark. Sundering mankind, though, is absolutely the end goal, and she affirms this both in the hazy fast-forward cutscene (as below), but also when Y'shtola questions her on the point, here. The wording of the Watcher does indeed make sundering the star sound like it was taken as an accepted or "necessary" cost for her to achieve her end goal of binding him (we know they understood they'd need to do this for their plan to work from the Anamnesis Anyder scene) and sundering mankind. Mankind is the ultimate target, but Zodiark would strive to protect it, and so she sundered everything. A very messy plan, indeed.

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Venat: So let there be no way back. From that temptation I sunder us.
Venat: No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise.
Venat: Henceforth, he shall walk.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

If i hand out a test to 1 million people to gauge their worth and only 8 actually pass the test...idk about you but i would take it that whatever people im testing arent worthy of whatever lol. Those 8 would be classified as simply outliers. My point is though, we now have people saying that the ancients deserved what they got for doing this "testing" on creations and for getting rid of the ones that didnt make the cut. If this is the case then the sundered should be held to the same standard because they do the same thing everyday.The test being unethical doesnt reallt warrant the cheating though, as it gives an incredible advantage to one side that the other didnt have. The test would be marked as inconclusive if we're basing it off the way irl things work.

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I'm not really discussing the test's validity as a science, or the fairness of it. I'm more talking about Hermes's motivation and reasoning behind it.

In the midst of a despair induced mental breakdown, Hermes decides to subject mankind to the same kind of testing that the creations of Elpis are subject to. If they fail to weather the final days and the coming disasters, then they are not fit to live on the star. In the same way a creation that is unsuited for its enviroment is unfit to live on the star. This is what Hermes (not me) believes.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

The test is little more than his bad faith attempt to lash out at his people and drag the entire universe with them and hiding all this information to make it "fair"; in the end the one person who has knowledge of this divulges it to her champion.

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This. It wasn't a test, it was a condemnation. Not even of just Etheirys, but of all life in the universe.

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In practical terms, they need to deal with two things - 1) Meteion (including finding and getting to her) and silence her and 2) taking on board what was learnt in the Dead Ends. Neither they nor the sundered would succeed at either of these without knowledge of the actual test and, ultimately, the sundered along with plenty of help from the unsundered

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Ah, you beat me to it. As Vyreus said in another thread: "It is one, idealized and idolized individual. An anointed chosen one birthed by the murder of original man. Prepared and groomed for the role, and given every tool past, present, and future to ensure success. If all of that is what's required to be worthy of life, then no basic concept for the worthiness of life exists."

I think the reason saying, "the Ancients failed Hermes's test" is getting pushback is because of a lot of interconnected factors.

Zodiark as a solution is, frankly, a monument to the ingenuity of the Ancients. Everything we can infer about him from Endwalker tells us that if pure "survival of the species" was the metric for pass/fail, then he likely is a passing state. The rest of the universe might decay and die around Etheirys due to the song of Meteion--and heck, Zodiark might not be able to hold out against her forever--but they'd probably last for a really really really really really really really long time. After all, the "pass" state of Elpis isn't "can this species live forever and ever up to and including the heat death of the universe" or "can the test subject assert their ability to survive by (potentially) murdering the test giver" either.

Where things get sticky is Venat's addition to the equation. Venat introduces a moral component that frankly, isn't there when it comes to the test species must pass for Elpis. The fire wolves were not culled by the researchers because they were "evil" or "bad", but that their innate nature made them disruptive to any habitat they would be introduced into.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

Where things get sticky is Venat's addition to the equation. Venat introduces a moral component that frankly, isn't there when it comes to the test species must pass for Elpis. The fire wolves were not culled by the researchers because they were "evil" or "bad", but that their innate nature made them disruptive to any habitat they would be introduced into.

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As to the Lyakons, this, exactly. They were to be unmade and the concept revised in order for them not to be deadly to other species outside of hunting. Which is a completely normal state of affairs in Elpis and should not be in the least criticized.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

I think the reason saying, "the Ancients failed Hermes's test" is getting pushback is because of a lot of interconnected factors.

Zodiark as a solution is, frankly, a monument to the ingenuity of the Ancients. Everything we can infer about him from Endwalker tells us that if pure "survival of the species" was the metric for pass/fail, then he likely is a passing state. The rest of the universe might decay and die around Etheirys due to the song of Meteion--and heck, Zodiark might not be able to hold out against her forever--but they'd probably last for a really really really really really really really long time. After all, the "pass" state of Elpis isn't "can this species live forever and ever up to and including the heat death of the universe" or "can the test subject assert their ability to survive by (potentially) murdering the test giver" either.

Where things get sticky is Venat's addition to the equation. Venat introduces a moral component that frankly, isn't there when it comes to the test species must pass for Elpis. The fire wolves were not culled by the researchers because they were "evil" or "bad", but that their innate nature made them disruptive to any habitat they would be introduced into.

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It depends - if you mean the "accept suffering" thing, you can take it as a moral element, but I'd say her rendition of the test is purely pragmatic, i.e. accept suffering and avoid the sacrifices to restore things as they were (for reasons I can't/won't tell you) to avoid us ultimately meeting our doom. Neither she nor Hermes incorporate any aspect of treating all life as equal into it, and indeed her plan would potentially be compromised if she began setting such limitations - in any case, if the test included any such component, it would be failed outright by the sundered. They don't even treat one another as equals, let alone all the other life on the star. I don't take his concerns with the creations particularly seriously for that reason. He's fine with using them as fodder when it suits him and dooming them along with everything else to Meteion's plan, which to me is sufficient to dismiss any pretence of him caring that greatly. Dealing with the creations in Elpis merely forces him to confront the actual source of his unease (implied to be a trait of his very soul) - death, and its implications (as he sees them) for any purpose held in life, hence the malformed question Meteion is tasked with answering. The test he is thrusting on mankind (and everything else) is plainly not the sort of tests they used to ensure the creations could be integrated into the broader star, which is why I consider it issued in bad faith/out of spite. This sort of cruelty endures in him as Fandaniel in the dying soldier scenario. Her rationale for answering the test is purely to address the fate that could eventually meet them, but needless to say I find her methods questionable and I am left unconvinced that this was the only way to address the issue. I agree that Zodiark is testament to their willpower and ingenuity and mankind has him to thank in large part for its continued existence.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

As to the Lyakons, this, exactly. They were to be unmade and the concept revised in order for them not to be deadly to other species outside of hunting. Which is a completely normal state of affairs in Elpis and should not be in the least criticized.

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And that is after they entertained multiple methods of re-evaluating their behaviour as-is. To me they're entities which don't differ much to Zenos.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

As to the Lyakons, this, exactly. They were to be unmade and the concept revised in order for them not to be deadly to other species outside of hunting. Which is a completely normal state of affairs in Elpis and should not be in the least criticized.

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Little comfort to the Lykaons, who were made that way by a researcher, potential for no reason other than vanity, and now must be killed. They had to be, that I agree, but that doesn’t change the innate cruelty of it all.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Little comfort to the Lykaons, who were made that way by a researcher, potential for no reason other than vanity, and now must be killed. They had to be, that I agree, but that doesn’t change the innate cruelty of it all.

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They at least held ceremonies/the equivalent of funeral rites for them. There’s innate cruelty in everything. Again, the eden primals, familiars, constructs that we summon in our everyday lives (in the game world). What’s your point with it exactly?At least they weren’t doing what Uldah did and having animals being slaughtered left and right purely for entertainment.

They're just arcane entities at the end of the day. Maybe animals were they to gain souls. I fail to see the issue. No crueller than raising up a cow to end up in a burger, to be consumed by a red haired cat boy. They're not released to the star, and that's the end of it.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

They at least held ceremonies/the equivalent of funeral rites for them. There’s innate cruelty in everything. Again, the eden primals, familiars, constructs that we summon in our everyday lives (in the game world). What’s your point with it exactly?At least they weren’t doing what Uldah did and having animals being slaughtered left and right purely for entertainment.

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I'll start saying a prayer every time my egi vanishes to be cruelly replaced by another/reaper avatar goes on a soul devouring spree during a fate etc... even for sprites, yes.

Oh god the whataboutism.

Maybe the game is saying many of the things mentioned aren’t right or good!

And maybe some of those things aren’t good comparisons.

Once again Kizuya you have yet to show any evidence that the primals in Eden were anything but arcane entities so either do so or argue that arcane entities are the same as ensouled ones.