Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

Summoner in those other games can use their pick of summons. We are currently about 30 primals in with FFXIV. And we only summon the 3 Egis and 2 Demis. The framework would be fine for level 50/60, but building with only 5 Legos is ultimately going to feel unrewarding. There's a line that one NPC's says on summoning that "if the being was on the size of [SPOILER], you might feel a little tug". Ok, that's a great bit of lore. I'd like a sanity/tempering meter, let me summon the Endwalker trials!

Also: mechanically speaking Searing Light gets really awkward when it desynchs with the Demi's. Can't use it during the demi so we have to either delay, loosing DPS, or just press on with the Demi anyway.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

And that's why consolidating commentary into one thread instead of splitting the same feedback into fifty threads is more effective. Having the same people respond to ten threads doesn't make it ten times the feedback nor does it make the feedback ten times as valuable.

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As much as that would be neat to see, I think there's too much of a difference in etiquette and culture for that to be realistic here. It has merits, but I'm also not fully convinced it's a better model either. The serial nature of megathreads can make it difficult to focus on issues with more specificity and nuance.

Whatever the case, I'm sure the content management team is passably acquainted with the habits of each region's forums. A JP megathread getting 4 new pages of posts every hour probably sounds the same alarm bells as 4 new threads on the same topic being created here.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I fail to see how convincing the other side's arguments are given that they can be summed up with "I was special for playing this class, I can't accept you changed things. I feel the other side ruined my class."

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So in addition to never once having argued in good faith despite demanding others to do so, you're also a hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

But if we see reversions back to mechs lifted from old SMN and the re-adding of Bio and Miasma? That's where I draw the line, and switch straight back over to Black and Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

So in addition to never once having argued in good faith despite demanding others to do so, you're also a hypocrite.

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Every single Summoner thread has aveyond-dreams in it and someone arguing with them.

It's honestly impressive.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

Every single Summoner thread has aveyond-dreams in it and someone arguing with them.

It's honestly impressive.

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Can confirm, am doing this in a different summoner thread. It's basically self-flagellation at this point.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

So in addition to never once having argued in good faith despite demanding others to do so, you're also a hypocrite.

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Historically the times when forum threads have lead to some kind of impact in game have been when there is a clear, focused thread where people congregate in and discuss things. There usually has to be sufficient driving force behind those threads unless the issue is so widespread and relevant that it's impossible to ignore (CLL bottleneck and Eureka come to mind). Of course there also has to be a strong enough base behind whatever the cause is.

See the male Viera situation. Widespread outrage, singular support thread headed by someone who was pretty level-headed about most things, had clear goals. The result was a new fan favourite race built directly off the ideas in that thread. Last time I checked it the first post had a whopping 1900k + likes. Needless to say there is no similar strength of numbers bolstering the cause of "bring back complex summoner!" There's also a lot of people who want to see new abilities and summons added, myself included, who are otherwise happy with the rework.

It's a stark difference between how the two camps of people proceeded to behave. Objective truths about the job's history in the franchise and why/how it was failing in FFXIV was met with hostility, and only served to paint those opposed to the rework in negative light by their own actions alone. There is a lot of frustration over on the poison mage/complex! side given the fact that the game has very obviously leaned in favour of streamlining and making things more accessible as opposed to encouraging the kind of 10 spinning plates style of gameplay that was abandoned at the end of Heavensward. Come Shadowbringers, it was absolutely regarded as one of the most unfriendly classes in the game as it was the sole remaining fragment of that era.

The majority of people then soundly rejected the final version of old SMN whether through feedback channels or by the simple metric of just not playing the job. I know after getting it to 80 and messing around with it for a while I decided there were better ways to enjoy the game than on a job that felt bad to play with mechanics that compromised its theme to the degree it did.

At some point in Endwalker development someone who at least appears to have a similar history and love for FF Summoners as people like me decided to step in and change things for the better, ultimately deciding that Summoner should be a Summoner instead of a mishmash class with a bad reputation. For the time being at least I trust them to not do a 180 on their design. Re-reworking or reverting the most popular caster on 2/3 regions because a handful of people can't accept the latest job changes is probably not on the table.

Summoner - caller of Gods with traditionally either Black Mage or White Mage as its commonest subjobs

Warlock - a demon summoner who casts poisons and fire magic

It was clear to me from the start that merging these two camps would never have produced a decent result and 8 years later seems I was right. If I could wait 8 years for my favorite class to finally live up to its name in game then I think the complex poison mage fans can wait 2 if not less years for Necromancer or Time Mage to make an appearance.

Yeah, it's kinda free internet points to argue with arguments like "Youtubes likes".

I plead guilty and I'm not ashamed of it.
But trying to remain polite nonetheless.

Ironically, it basically shows how little people are actually in favor of the rework.
We should be thankful to aveyond for keeping the threads alive.

Frankly I can barely even tell what this thread is about anymore.

Summoner thematics? Gameplay? Egis? Rydia?

Can’t it be ‘good’ in the thematic department but ‘bad’ in the gameplay? Like the polar opposite of Bards lol.

I mean if we’re really going to talk about how ffxiv jobs should be reflections of their traditional counterparts I’m gonna have to ask…what in the world happened to Bard?! How do you get from ‘harp playing poet’ to ‘laser beam archer’ lol. Did they play the wrong series of games or something lol

Personally I do think the current Summoner has a more ‘FF summoner’ theme than previously. I think it had an ff summoner theme before too, just that the theme was more tinted by the ffxiv lens. I also do think it definitely needs more ‘time in the oven’, because it’s far from golden brown at the moment lol. But it looks like when it’s done baking, it’ll be pretty good, I think (hope).

Maybe returning the old Summoner play style on a more thematically appropriate class would be the best way to please both parties?

Though that still isn’t very fair for people who preferred Old Summoner, but it’d also be a net gain in the long-term, because a more thematically appropriate class would mean they could focus purely on the more tactical DoT application play style without having to tack on Summons or summoner-like-things? Plus, it’s not like they have to do one or other. They could make a new class for the old playstyle and improve the complexity and capabilities of the current (New) Summoner.

Idk basically I’d like them to continue the direction they’re going with the new Summoner. I’d like if they also found a way to accomodate players who preferred the old Summoner. Can’t we have both?

Bard is definitely another...situation for lack of a better term. I don't know what that job is trying to be, but whatever it is isn't delivering well on being either an Archer or a Bard.

The best solution when it comes to Summoner however is really just letting them continue to add things to the rework in meaningful ways which most do support. I just can't support re-adding old ideas that drove me away from the job in previous expansions onto something that shows a great deal of promise so far. I won't stand in the way of adding more summons or aetherflow charges if they do in 6.1, I'm all for it.

The time to make one's peace with the rework was months ago, but it appears some are still in the process of that. Divorce, peaceful or otherwise, was the only permanent solution to the ongoing gameplay and thematic crisis that plagued the job for the last 8 years.

As for where fans of old SMN go from here, the choice is in their hands. The last full job that was added in the middle of an expansion was Ninja in ARR, and doubtless they wouldn't be satisfied with a limited job. Your idea is the correct one, that the ideal resolution for them would be a brand new job of their own that exists separate from Summoner. The most effective way forward for them is to combine their ideas into a support thread of their own for future job additions and in 7.0 they may receive Necromancer, Time Mage, even Green Mage if they so wish. Presenting their thoughts in an organized and mature way would do much for their cause as opposed to their present behavior.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

BS

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Everything you wrote in this post rings especially hollow in light of you declaring you would not accept the return of a single DOT to the job and would return to Black Mage, a job with a DOT you regularly need to reapply.

Nobody has to accept anything they don't like, and they certainly don't need approval from the likes of you to express their displeasure at something.