The general player base needs to improve

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Originally Posted by Gallus

There are no people standing on the aoes on purpose to ruin your lives and there are no people ignoring share damage mechanics as long as they notice them.

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I really want to know what Duty Finder you’re playing in, because in the DF I run in, there are people that just blatantly stand in AOEs, ignore mechanics, and not only ignore the stack markers, but run away with them.

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I said I'm familiar with the kind of player profile that just "harmlessly offers advice" when on reality most of the times they are nothing but people with temperamental attitudes (or a bad day). Perhaps the TC is actually not among these people and he/she is legit concerned about the average level of the players in this game? Possibly. But understand my skepticism when my experience has told me otherwise throughout all these years.

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Your “skepticism” is nothing more than a baseless assumption that you’ve made against Kaiva without even really knowing them. I understand past experiences can jade people, and I consider myself pretty darn jaded, but I don’t just assume the worst of people, nor make blanket generalizations about them without even knowing them. Especially when they’ve been perfectly cordial in a discussion thread they created.

Can hardly call it baseless, but whatever, didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, when your opinion differs from the other one/s accusing them of being something you are against shouldn't be all that terrible. Maybe I could've been a bit more civilized with the "angry bullies" part, just replace those words for "temperamental folks" so that we don't have to go on an endless discussion about how disrespectful and terribly mean I've been by saying what I said, but just like I'm ignoring all the posts insulting, mocking or calling me toxic, TC can do exactly the same if he/she knows I'm wrong about him/her (in fact, I think himself/herself has done a much better work at that than the rest of the people). I don't think what I said was as terrible as you are making it out to be anyway.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You'll be amazed at how quickly people motivate themselves when reasonably pushed.

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Gordias and A3S are a good example. People were surely very motivated with those turns and their tight DPS checks. They were so motivated that more than half the playerbase quitted the game. The term "reasonably" is ambiguous.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You realize the inherent hypocrisy here, yes? By casting a wide, generalizing net, you look just as toxic as the players you're accusing. When people cite those "refusing to learn," they mean dungeon runs where DPS will not AoE no matter how often they are asked; any job who has not even the basic idea how their job works despite being at max level. In plenty of cases, it's these people who get the most irate despite causing the problem. Or am I an "angry bully" for expecting you to press your AoE abilities when I pull ten mobs and you're wearing better gear than I am?

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So what if they don't want to AOE, what are you going to do about it? Ask SE to make people use AOE actions on your dungeon runs? There's a limit to what SE can do. You guys think it's SE who is spoiling people by making things too easy. I don't agree with that. I think what we have now is what most people legit want, and I think you are in the minority here. Hunts are a good example of this. They are extremely easy content with high reward. At times, they are so crowded my screen can't even load the amount of people that are gathered next to them.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Can hardly call it baseless, but whatever, didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, when your opinion differs from the other one/s accusing them of being something you are against shouldn't be all that terrible. Maybe I could've been a bit more civilized with the "angry bullies" part, just replace those words for "temperamental folks" so that we don't have to go on an endless discussion about how disrespectful and terribly mean I've been by saying what I said, but just like I'm ignoring all the posts insulting, mocking or calling me toxic, TC can do exactly the same if he/she knows I'm wrong about him/her (in fact, I think himself/herself has done a much better work at that than the rest of the people).

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It’s baseless when you make them about someone whom you don’t even know. Or have never interacted with. You don’t know anything about them to even give the slightest insinuation that they’re actually a jerk; so just assuming they’re a jerk because, what? A thread they made that you don’t seem to agree with? That’s baseless. Kaiva has been civil in their thread; there has been no name-calling on their end. Where as, your behavior has been fairly uncalled for with quite a fair bit of name-calling, so people have reason to tell you as such.

And maybe Kaiva is better at ignoring people being rude towards them, but I’ve never had very high tolerance for people that just assume things.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

So what if they don't want to AOE, what are you going to do about it?

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If you repeatedly ask DPS to AOE during large pulls, and they still refuse to do so, then I will gladly click “yes” for any vote kick. Because they aren’t pulling their weight, but expecting everyone else to do more damage to make up for them not wanting to hit their AOE skill.

Would you be okay with a tank that didn’t want to hold a boss? What about a healer that doesn’t want to heal? Or a tank or healer that only does half of their job? A DPS refusing to AOE a large pull is doing half the damage (less, actually) that they can actually do, thereby doing half of their job....which is to deal as much damage as possible. I don’t understand this double standard of tanks/healers must do 100%, but if the SAM doesn’t want to AOE or the NIN feels like doing 50%, that’s a-okay.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Either the healer uses esuna, and they go, or its the same thing we already have, uncleansable debuffs. The worst we have is paralysis.

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Paralysis is one of the most effective things that the game does throw at us. I can't argue this...good point.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Those don't really do much. You give dps a damage down and have a dps check, its the same as just not giving them a dmg down and making it a harder dps check. You give them infirmary, you just end up balancing the attacks based on the lowered totals. It just goes back to whether or not what you do has a serious threat to wipe the player. If it doesn't, its the same as we already have.

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Not quite. If you have a damage down with a tough DPS check, you're gonna have to bring out everything you've got. Say, you get it during a Behemoth's Meteor cast. If a DPS is down, you will not pass this check. Obviously, the min ilvl has to be balanced towards this, but we're talking about having expert level dungeons - given that nearly all EX and Savage battles have a smaller DPS check in battle, it will encourage players to push out damage. That's just one example.

Have another one where you're fighting a boss on a platform similar to Demon Wall, and a pushback mechanic that covers the entire platform is about to come up along with particularly nasty, untargetable adds (say aether swords or something like that) that will float across the platform. The adds themselves deal attack/magic damage down debuffs if you touch just one of them. One way of dealing with that would be to stack in a way that the pushback will knock you in a way that the entire party will not touch any of the adds. Have something like that, and boom, you are familiarized with one of the main mechanics of O5S.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

no no, my point was that we already have things that are optional, hard, teach players skills, and offer rewards better than the casual content that precedes them. those are ex trials. However, the problem with ex trials is not enough people do it, especially the people who could benefit from having their skills challenged by them. The people though who already find most content in the game easy are the ones who tend to do them, and then they complain its too easy. You can have those dungeons, but they might end up as another form of ex primals in terms of impact.

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Ex/Savage trials are a significant step up. Truthfully, all I'm suggesting is a middle ground between the dungeons we currently have now, and those hard battles. I'll even take it a step further, take the existing Hard Mode dungeons and call them (Dungeon Name) Unyielding. The people who find everything easy don't really matter, because their skill levels are just simply far above our own. I'd venture to say Wanderer's Palace Unyielding could be the first. Have a Master Tonberry capable of causing instant death, and being able to cast meteor. Allow it to even invade in the boss fight. That'll give a run a sense of urgency, for example.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It’s baseless when you make them about someone whom you don’t even know. Or have never interacted with.

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You almost make it sound like this is strange in a forum?

Anyway, we could go on and on about this. We clearly have different views about this community. I think it's doing fine, and I think it's healthier than ever (couldn't say the same thing in HW).
From what I gather, some of you think a lot of people are spoiled, lazy and that SE should somehow obligate them to perform better. I don't see this problem. All I'm seeing are people that play at different levels because they feel different about this game or dedicate more time to it, etc.

Feel free to vote kick anyone in a dungeon who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation, recently came back or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still not 100% familiar with it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Gordias and A3S are a good example. People were surely very motivated with those turns and their tight DPS checks. They were so motivated that more than half the playerbase quitted the game. The term "reasonably" is ambiguous.

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I like how you omitted context here. That quote was in response to dungeons. Savage isn't meant for people learning how to improve from the ground up. You're comparing apples with oranges. Regardless, the developers outside acknowledge they didn't test Gordias properly.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

So what if they don't want to AOE, what are you going to do about it? Ask SE to make people use AOE actions on your dungeon runs? There's a limit to what SE can do. You guys think it's SE who is spoiling people by making things too easy. I don't agree with that. I think what we have now is what most people legit want, and I think you are in the minority here. Hunts are a good example of this. They are extremely easy content with high reward. At times, they are so crowded my screen can't even load the amount of people that are gathered next to them.

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Happily initiate a Vote Dismissal. I suppose you're okay with tanks refusing to hold aggro or healers opting not to heal. After all, if the baseline is only doing what you want, we can extent that standard to every job.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Feel free to vote kick anyone in a dungeon who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still practicing it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

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AoE abilities are acquired pre-50. In fact, the only job that doesn't have an aoe before 50 is Astro; a healer. If you've made it to level 70 and haven't figured out your aoe rotation, you're not bothering to read your tooltip—at which point, I couldn't care less if you "just made it to 70." That isn't an excuse when you had almost thirty levels to learn what those abilities did. If they want to practice their single target rotation, do it on the boss not when the tank pulls ten mobs.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Feel free to vote kick anyone who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still practicing it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

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Well, most DPS jobs’ AOEs are learned at level 30~40 by the absolute latest (barring a few exceptions), some much earlier than that (BRD learns Quick Nock at level 18). If a DPS has had a skill for 30~40+ levels, and still cannot use them at level 70 in current endgame dungeons...then I don’t even know what to tell them. When you explicitly ask for their AOEs in chat multiple times, and they refuse to cooperate, well...sorry, I don’t have much sympathy for them.

As for practicing a single-target rotation, do it on the bosses. Not on the pack of 5+ mobs that are taking forever and a day to die. Or, better yet, practice on a striking dummy first, until it’s border muscle-memory, and then take it into duties, and practice on bosses, or on packs that are 3 mobs are less (because AOE is a gain at 3+ mobs)

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Originally Posted by Gallus

You almost make it sound like this is strange in a forum?

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What’s so strange about asking you to just be respectful toward someone unless they give you a good reason not to be? Has Kaiva given you a reason to respond as you have been responding in this thread; an actual good reason other than they said something you disagree with? If not, then you’re being needlessly rude.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Feel free to vote kick anyone in a dungeon who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still practicing it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

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Lazy...sometimes, yes. Other times, they may flat out not know what they're doing wrong. The only times I've really ever personally initiated a vote kick was from a legitimate AFK person in a dungeon. My time limit is usually 5 minutes. I'll ask for AOE if I'm tanking and making a wall-to-wall pull because one can only rotate CDs for so long. If someone wants to practice single target rotation in an AOE scenario, while I won't really call them out on that, there are other places for it unless its a boss. Dummies for example. All the starting areas for the first three city-states have them. SE has already done enough in giving players the tools to play at a good level - it's up to players now to utilize what's available in their skill set, if they so please. This goes especially for those players wanting to jump into content at lvl 70 outside of the MSQ dungeons.

If they so choose, that is.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

I said I'm familiar with the kind of player profile that just "harmlessly offers advice" when on reality most of the times they are nothing but people with temperamental attitudes (or a bad day). Perhaps the TC is actually not among these people and he/she is legit concerned about the average level of the players in this game? Possibly. But understand my skepticism when my experience has told me otherwise throughout all these years.

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If you run into tempermental advice givers so much, that raises the question of what you are or aren't doing to prompt such advice being offered? I mean, I so rarely, if ever get advice, but I also show myself to be more than competent at whatever role/job I'm playing at the time, and generally am capable of figuring things out on my own. And I don't think that's anything extraordinary or difficult for any other player to do. The difference is having the will to do it.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Feel free to vote kick anyone in a dungeon who isn't doing the rotation you feel they should be doing, go ahead, you could be kicking someone who either just made it to 70, isn't very familiar with their aoe rotation, recently came back or simply wants to put into practice their single target rotation because they are still not 100% familiar with it. I'm certainly proud of have never done so and I will continue doing the same thing.

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Nice try. I speak from experience, both PvE and PvP that after a while, you can really tell the difference in movement between a newer player, and a player just phoning it in. As for practicing a single target rotation, please tell me where the logic applies in practicing single target rotation when confronted with multiple enemies? Striking dummies exist for a reason, so I'm shooting that one down. Just as well, if they're at level 70 and don't know their single target rotation, what have they been doing all that time?

I get that you want to find the outlying possibilities, but let's keep some rationality in the debate. I wouldn't kick someone doing any of the things you mentioned above, but I would speak up to offer them advice. If they don't want to take it and use it, or want to lash out at me, I'm more than free to leave, just as they are. But that won't solve the problem one bit, and trying to justify or excuse it won't either.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Lazy...sometimes, yes. Other times, they may flat out not know what they're doing wrong. The only times I've really ever personally initiated a vote kick was from a legitimate AFK person in a dungeon. My time limit is usually 5 minutes. I'll ask for AOE if I'm tanking and making a wall-to-wall pull because one can only rotate CDs for so long. If someone wants to practice single target rotation in an AOE scenario, while I won't really call them out on that, there are other places for it unless its a boss. Dummies for example. All the starting areas for the first three city-states have them. SE has already done enough in giving players the tools to play at a good level - it's up to players now to utilize what's available in their skill set, if they so please. This goes especially for those players wanting to jump into content at lvl 70 outside of the MSQ dungeons.

If they so choose, that is.

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Completely agree with that. Practicing their single target rotations on a dungeon when they should be playing for the team and AOE the group of mobs sounds selfish and isn't the perfect scenario... but nothing's perfect, ever, honestly. Going as far as to start a vote kick against these players? I say no to that. The only players I've kicked were people that were verbally harassing me or my group or were afk for a reasonable amount of time with no explanation given.