*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

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Originally Posted by Garnetiferous

Or it could be that since the sundering split the world, the ancients got split into the seperate races at that point and thus they exist on all worlds. Emet and Hythlo, after they size you up, don't seem to recognize you as like a hrothgar or something just general comments about your stature and that would be extremely strange if they already exist. Because of Azem, they both should be very well traveled and should have seen them somewhere. Even if we chalk it up to the ancients thinking they're superior to everyone else, they should still recognize the races when they see them. Also Varis claims directly that the sundering led to the different races.

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I meant that Zodiark - in reseeding life to the star, created all the new races too. But really, it's impossible to know one way or the other.

That being said, I wouldn't take much stock in Varis's opinions of where the other races come from.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I meant that Zodiark - in reseeding life to the star, created all the new races too. But really, it's impossible to know one way or the other.

That being said, I wouldn't take much stock in Varis's opinions of where the other races come from.

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Yeah, you're right, it's pretty much impossible to know until the game elaborates on it. The events leading up to and right after the sundering are extremely vague. Hopefully, we get some more info in later patches.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Given that both the source and the first are populated by Roegadyn, Miqo'te, Au Ra - etc. I don't think it is a huge leap in logic to assume that those and others were the races that populated the star pre-sundering. In other words, sentient life, and potential victims for the ancient's sacrifice plan.

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Given Hydaelyn has everyone call her "mother", I would presume she created them as vessels for the Ancient's souls after the sundering. There is precedent for this with the Loporrits, after all.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Emet was horrified about his future self. After all death was an honor and the sacrificed souls were seemingly quite happy to be the matyr of the star.

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Correct me if i’m wrong but the souls sacrificed we’re stuck inside Zodiark were they not? So they weren’t able to return to the Lifestream which is where the honorable death stemmed from. In regards to the Emet thing, it just goes to show the extent someone is willing to go to save and protect their loved ones. We see this same thing with Ironworks and Graha who were willing to sacrifice people to save others. It’s something that’s played out on both sides. I think the vegan comment was partially stemming from people bashing the ancients for getting rid of creations, some of which who couldn’t hold a conversation and didn’t even have souls, but people bash them for it anyways as them “having no regard for life” despite the multiple side quests showing us it isn’t true. Meanwhile these same people i’m sure don’t question or feel remorse when a slab of steak is served to them on a silver platter. It’s double standards.Especially when it’s prevalent in the game as well. We slaughter animals all the time without a second thought, amongst the sundered there’s even a wide variety of poachers which are even worse.

Regarding Emet-Selch's perspective proving that he isn't biased because he directly observed the sundered races' cruelty and stupidity. I disagree, I think that explicitly reveals his bias. That he can observe people for generations and only see the absolute worst in them, and come away thinking they are unworthy of life and inferior to him and his bretheren is not a sign that he is enlightened and has a perspective he has come to through reason and observation.

Especially if you contrast Emet-Selch with Midgardsormr, someone who is just as long lived as Emet-Selch, and has not only seen the cruelty and hate of the sundered races, but has been more a victim of them than Emet-Selch ever has been. But still - he thinks they have value, and works to protect them as much as he would protect his own children.

(Also, given he was the architect of both the Garlean and Allagan Empires, Emet-Selch kind of has his hand on the scale when it comes to judging the sundered races.)

Alpha didn't hold conversations with us and didn't have a soul at first. Like Omega, the Ancients would have seen no problem in unmaking him.

And it was doing both the MSQ and various side-quests in Elpis, where we as the WoL are treated as a thing, that stuck in my craw. Do they have zero regard for life? No, but I don't like their standards for it, and I think Alisaie's retort to the Garlean philosophy about 'What if we don't live up to your standards of perfection/we all have a stake in this world' is actually a retort towards the Ancients of Elpis as much as it is towards the Garleans. Same with the Scions distaste for the Forum deciding who got to load into the Ragnarok and who didn't.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Regarding Emet-Selch's perspective proving that he isn't biased because he directly observed the sundered races' cruelty and stupidity. I disagree, I think that explicitly reveals his bias. That he can observe people for generations and only see the absolute worst in them, and come away thinking they are unworthy of life and inferior to him and his bretheren is not a sign that he is enlightened and has a perspective he has come to through reason and observation.

Especially if you contrast Emet-Selch with Midgardsormr, someone who is just as long lived as Emet-Selch, and has not only seen the cruelty and hate of the sundered races, but has been more a victim of them than Emet-Selch ever has been. But still - he thinks they have value, and works to protect them as much as he would protect his own children.

(Also, given he was the architect of both the Garlean and Allagan Empires, Emet-Selch kind of has his hand on the scale when it comes to judging the sundered races.)

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Midy also has first hand knowledge that being "Unsundered" doesn't really matter much in terms of ability to survive as a society long term. Or ability to be decent. After all, the Omnicrons were a "full race" all those dead stars he passed on the way to Etheriys were from "full" peoples and look what it got them.

Midy has more reason then anyone to not really buy what the Ascians were selling. He has no reason to believe even if they got what they wanted they wouldn't end up the exact same way as any other dead star. If anything he would probably find them extremely arrogant and naïve to the wider universe.

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Originally Posted by Denishia

Alpha didn't hold conversations with us and didn't have a soul at first. Like Omega, the Ancients would have seen no problem in unmaking him.

And it was doing both the MSQ and various side-quests in Elpis, where we as the WoL are treated as a thing, that stuck in my craw. Do they have zero regard for life? No, but I don't like their standards for it, and I think Alisaie's retort to the Garlean philosophy about 'What if we don't live up to your standards of perfection/we all have a stake in this world' is actually a retort towards the Ancients of Elpis as much as it is towards the Garleans. Same with the Scions distaste for the Forum deciding who got to load into the Ragnarok and who didn't.

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We were treated as a thing because we were regarded as a familiar and we ourselves were going along with that to make things go swimmingly. Despite being a familiar or a “thing” as you want to put it, they still treat us with kindness. They take us on tours, they express concern when they think we might dissipate or disappear. They even hold ceremonies for the creations they get rid of. I don’t under at and how much more you want them to do. You don’t hold a ceremony everytime you kill a fly do you? They at the very least did that. And i’d say given how long they lasted, they were doing a pretty good job at their whole goal, aka preservation of the stari.n regards to the creation things as well, lets not forget that we literally use something similar to creation magicks in Eden, we summon primals who have a will and could hold a conversation with us, and we summon them just to kill them.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

Not all of them, some get really annoyed at your presence, others ask you to risk yourself in combat and are explicitly fine with it if you die. One even asks to make sure you let the monster kill you if it comes to that because its more valuable then you.

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Yes because in the end we are a familiar, we are treated as a familiar, where while they do respect us, we are essentially expendable. Just like how we see porxie familiars get used and destroyed without a second thought in some of the il mheg quests. But a majority of them treat us well, and imo that sets them far apart from just not having any regards to lives like people think.I really dont see how the sundered are any better in this regard either as a majority of the time we are used as a weapon for people to point us at.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We were treated as a thing because we were regarded as a familiar and we ourselves were going along with that to make things go swimmingly. Despite being a familiar or a “thing” as you want to put it, they still treat us with kindness. They take us on tours, they express concern when they think we might dissipate or disappear. They even hold ceremonies for the creations they get rid of. I don’t under at and how much more you want them to do. You don’t hold a ceremony everytime you kill a fly do you? They at the very least did that. And i’d say given how long they lasted, they were doing a pretty good job at their whole goal, aka preservation of the star.

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Not all of them, some get really annoyed at your presence, others ask you to risk yourself in combat and are explicitly fine with it if you die. One even asks to make sure you let the monster kill you if it comes to that because its more valuable then you.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

And I didnt know that my meal would be able to hold a conversation with me.

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Animals have the excuse of not being able to speak human languages because they lack the anatomy to do so, but man even with the aid of technology still hasn't figured out how to communicate with other intelligence species. Pigs have been shown to be smarter than 3-year old humans, but I suppose there's an argument that you can't hold a conversation with a human child either. :P

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Heck we are seen as nothing but a familiar simply because we have a less dense soul. We talk with them, we clearly show emotions and other than the soul we can basically look like them and yet we are still just familiars. An interesting, cute creation but nothing much more.

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Animals communicate with us and show us emotions, but they don't look like us and can't speak human language so I guess they're just cute and interesting, but nothing much more. Well, aside from edible, wearable, etc. At least none of the Ancients tried to do that to us!