Dark Knight

Bumping this.

key mechanic for DRK being a tank IMO (even though they shouldn't be [again imo] but probably will be) is Reverse.

Well in exploring the idea of a Gladiator being the class for the DRK, I remember that shields since the Roman period were often sharpened. They were the single "no-nice you suck now" weapon of the period when made out of metal. They would bash an opponent then harshly thrust the shield to the side cutting the opponent. Due to the lack of prevalent metal armor, this was about an unstoppable tactic. So i could see a stance that made all the enmity production split between damage and enmity reduction with the exclusion of provoke (perhaps pure damage for provoke?). It would be an interesting take, on the entire job due to its history of getting a lot of attention and dealing with it, constantly fighting over enmity with the tank in XI.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

I did, and he's still not using real historical ninjas. He's using the modern concept of the ninja that was exaggerated to create the video game ninjas that he's bashing. His concept of a ninja is only marginally more accurate than the ones the video game uses (dangling upside down and crawling around on rooftops is not something that a ninja would do all the time, much less break someone's neck).

His "real" ninjas are all running around in the "trademark" ninja garb in which there is not a lick of evidence that ninja actually wore. He also acts as if ninja were absolutely and totally obsessed with keeping their identities hidden by concealing their faces (seriously, he's massively hung up on this). A vast majority of the time a ninja would be running around looking like a peasant, blending into crowds because it's a helluva lot easier to get away when you look inconspicuous than when you're dressed "like a ninja" (even at night; hiding behind something or looking like an innocent bystander is *infinitely* more effective than trying to hide in shadows), not to mention that a vast majority of ninja work was just like modern day spycraft: gathering information, sabotage, and only *rarely* killing someone (even then, more likely to be accomplished with poison or some other indirect method). Blending into the background is also why the traditional ninja weapons were old farm tools or very small, easily hidden weapons (real shuriken are tiny and the "throwing star" never really used; shuriken were more like large throwing needles or kunai): the ninja would look like a peasant working in the field, harvesting crops rather than an obvious threat.

The "ninja outfit" that he goes on and one about is a construct of popular culture, not history. It was derived from kabuki theater where the stagehands who ran around behind the actors were dressed in black so that they blended in with the black backdrop. Since someone walking up behind an actor kind of signal an impending assassination/attack which ruins the surprise, the "assassin" would be dressed as a stagehand so that everyone ignored him and "kill" the actor with no one suspecting. Since assassinations are pretty popular in historical plays and a technique like that only works until everyone expects it, people started equating an actor dressed in the stagehand's outfit as the stereotypical "ninja", much like people think that spies are like James Bond. The different colored suits were simply reverse extrapolation of the black suit as people tried to account for straight black being bad camouflage (unless you're, you know, in a kabuki theater using a black backdrop).

That video has less to do with historical ninjas (as in "actually happened way back when") than it does with the modern day concept of a ninja extrapolated in reverse by people who love ninjas more than history. It's just like the modern view of the samurai, cowboy, or almost any other popular historical archetype (interesting note: the code of Bushido was actually invented by Japanese Imperialists as propaganda as a way to mythologize their heritage rather than realize that samurai were simply a caste of people with swords that were often little more than celebrated policemen). People are less interested in the bland reality than they are in exaggeration and "rule of cool". The guy obviously *likes* ninjas and has more than a bit of a weeaboo streak in him, but that's basically blinded him to any idea that the ninja might not be as cool as he thought they were.

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Never mind he actually went to Japan and talked to the decedents of real ninjas. If you knew a little more about real ninjas you knew that they worked primarily in villages not their own, and had to blend into their environment and most importantly their community and stay that way as spies. If they were to do in-depth recon/sabatoge activity they would need to conceal their identity else their, sometimes life long, efforts would be lost and they would probably die.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Well in exploring the idea of a Gladiator being the class for the DRK, I remember that shields since the Roman period were often sharpened.

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Weaponizing shields happened through their entire use so it's not just a Roman era thing. Sharpening the edges of a shield doesn't even make much sense given that it weakens the defensive capability of the shield (thin outer edges) and adds significant weight (since you can't really sharpen wood, the outer rim would need to be made of metal). The only common offensive addition to a shield was a spike bolted/screwed to the center to improve the traditional shield bash without screwing with the center of balance or weakening its structural integrity. Punching with the edge of a shield wasn't an unknown tactic, but it wouldn't really need a sharp edge to cause appreciable damage since it would accomplish much the same thing as brass knuckles.

GLA already has Shield Bash and Shield Slam which cover the most of the offensive shield tactics (they're held by your hand and forearm so you have limited range of motion and, with the exception of smaller shields like bucklers and targes, they're too large to move around a great deal). The only really missing attack is punching with your shield (hitting with the edge of the shield rather than the face) but that's basically impossible with anything larger than a targe.

P.S. The roman shields everyone thinks of (scuta, sing. scutum, the tall ones that Roman infantry used) were cylindrically curved so as to deflect arrows (as opposed to block them, which is basically asking for an arrow through your arm or a broken shield) and too large to effectively move around tactically (you kept it vertical at all times). Sharpening the sides would basically be useless as would the top since it's so tall. The only edge you would bother sharpening would be the bottom though the only use would be used to slam it into the ground and attack an enemy's feet/toes in a full on melee rather than moving from side to side but that's something of a specialized and not particularly deadly tactic (if you're looking to distract, slamming their foot with an blunt edge is just as effective).

P.S.S. Metal armor was actually very common in the Roman era. Mail armor (lorica hamata) was standard issue for heavy infantry (you wouldn't want to put much armor on light infantry) and plate armor (lorica segmentata) was basically the choice of anyone who was looking to spend money on armor.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Never mind he actually went to Japan and talked to the decedents of real ninjas.

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Because it's not like the Japanese hypermythologize ninjas and samurai, which was my entire point.

After the Meiji Revolution, there was a monumental amount of internal propaganda that mythologized medieval Japan. It happened over a century ago so having talked to your grandpa/grandma about ninjas, samurai, or whatever means next to nothing because they were the ones raised by the people exposed to said propaganda and most heavily influenced by it. It's why people think that every Japanese archetype was bound by and followed a code of extreme honor and self sacrifice there really *was* no code and, at best, was something like a general guideline. The government wanted to create links to their nation's heritage while they were changing *everything* by rapidly modernizing from the enforced medievalism of the Edo era while simultaneously setting exceptionally high standards of behavior for people to strive towards.

The mythologizing of the ninja and samurai are effectively the same thing as the mythologizing of the European medieval knight. No knight seriously followed the code of Chivalry nor did anyone think that the Arthurian tales were anything approaching reality. They're idealized constructs based upon what we *wanted* those archetypes to be, not what they actually were.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

P.S.S. Metal armor was actually very common in the Roman era. Mail armor (lorica hamata) was standard issue for heavy infantry (you wouldn't want to put much armor on light infantry) and plate armor (lorica segmentata) was basically the choice of anyone who was looking to spend money on armor.

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Yes, I brain farted. I was thinking Greek Spartan period.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Because it's not like the Japanese hypermythologize ninjas and samurai, which was my entire point.

After the Meiji Revolution, there was a monumental amount of internal propaganda that mythologized medieval Japan. It happened over a century ago so having talked to your grandpa/grandma about ninjas, samurai, or whatever means next to nothing because they were the ones raised by the people exposed to said propaganda and most heavily influenced by it. It's why people think that every Japanese archetype was bound by and followed a code of extreme honor and self sacrifice there really *was* no code and, at best, was something like a general guideline. The government wanted to create links to their nation's heritage while they were changing *everything* by rapidly modernizing from the enforced medievalism of the Edo era while simultaneously setting exceptionally high standards of behavior for people to strive towards.

The mythologizing of the ninja and samurai are effectively the same thing as the mythologizing of the European medieval knight. No knight seriously followed the code of Chivalry nor did anyone think that the Arthurian tales were anything approaching reality. They're idealized constructs based upon what we *wanted* those archetypes to be, not what they actually were.

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You mean... like the way they might be portrayed in a video-game?

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Saying there is zero disputing it when you're not actually tackling the counterargument doesn't mean that there's no disputing it. It just means that you're ignoring any counterargument because you're too married to your own idea that you can't fathom any possible contradiction.

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Fine, you can needlessly troll and dispute it all you want but it is obvious to anyone that isn't blinded by ninja fanaticism that the simularities between the outfits are worlds more in common with the assassin than your presented ninja.
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...a-assassin.jpghttp://www.ffcompendium.com/jobimages/3-ninjaarc-a.jpghttp://cdn.pcgamesn.com/sites/defaul...1394041545.png
Complete with similar color pallet, and similarly shaped caplet. Not really a point but both characters even have over-sized ears!

Now it is my understanding that class appearances, names, and abilities do sometimes get switched, mixed, and matched between similar jobs/abilities; for example, the Red Mage and Rune Fencer frequently do this between different games. So this could be a ninja, just looking like and maybe even named assassin to better fit the European market/esthetic.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Fine, you can needlessly troll and dispute it all you want but it is obvious to anyone that isn't blinded by ninja fanaticism that the simularities between the outfits are worlds more in common with the assassin than your presented ninja.
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...a-assassin.jpghttp://www.ffcompendium.com/jobimages/3-ninjaarc-a.jpghttp://cdn.pcgamesn.com/sites/defaul...1394041545.png
Complete with similar color pallet, and similarly shaped caplet. Not really a point but both characters even have over-sized ears!

Now it is my understanding that class appearances, names, and abilities do sometimes get switched, mixed, and matched between similar jobs/abilities; for example, the Red Mage and Rune Fencer frequently do this between different games. So this could be a ninja, just looking like and maybe even named assassin to better fit the European market/esthetic.

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http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...TNinjaMale.png
and
http://cdn.vanillaforums.com/pennyar...xf4bjznwob.jpg

Ears are because...well, she's a cat person.


Side note: Why do you call everyone who disagrees with you a troll? It's fair to call you a troll since your opinion differs from ours?