#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by Sesera

The problem is that you either have it your way and any time a healer F'd up and die its a wipe unless the boss is almost dead and you punish the all party for the healer mistake or you gives the party a chance to succeed.

A few month ago i had a Ghimlyt Dark run where the healer dc'd mid fight on last boss nobody got mad when the paladin started to keep us alive with clemency quite the opposite actually.

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Then what's the point of having the healing role at all if the other jobs can just make up for it just like that. Shouldnt we just go the pvp route of every job being a dps and then having some flavor on top of that? Should we remake the entire game into a warframe like structure where 4 people are independently soloing the mission?

3 people doing a fight that's designed for 4 people should be tough. Having limited combat rezzes for jobs outside of smn and rdm is also something that has been talked about before. I dont think anyone in here is mad at specific players just playing warrior or paladin, I dont know why you would think that.

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Originally Posted by Sesera

The problem is that you either have it your way and any time a healer F'd up and die its a wipe unless the boss is almost dead and you punish the all party for the healer mistake or you gives the party a chance to succeed.

A few month ago i had a Ghimlyt Dark run where the healer dc'd mid fight on last boss nobody got mad when the paladin started to keep us alive with clemency quite the opposite actually.

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I think the solution to this is classes like summoner and red mage. When the healer eats floor, having non healers with resurrection gives everyone a shot to recover and salvage a run. It always feels very satisfying and rewarding to me when this happens. Not only should they put the idea of removing res from SMN to rest for good, they should give it to a few more classes that it might make sense on. Maybe Paladin for example.

If our choices being presented are
1. “Content hard, so if the healer dies you have to restart”
2. “Content easy, so healers are unnecessary”
3. “Content hard, but someone can res the healer and we can keep on fighting”
I’ll take the third option any day of the week.

BTW, if the strike is "successful", I'm going to bet the only "answer" we'll get is SE finally adding healers achievements/mounts to lure players back while completely avoiding the issue...

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Originally Posted by PeppermintBrown

...Yet on the other hand, you demand more active dps, demanding to dip into our role...

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For the sake of argument I have chosen to ignore the overwhelming condescension for the benefit of others in this thread.

If having more than two damage buttons is encroaching on the DPS role the elephant in the room is tanks. Tanks get a damage rotation with a burst and everything, Gunbreaker and the new Viper even share a secondary mechanic. This has not made 4 tanks the ideal dungeon group however because tank DPS only supplements DPS role DPS. Tank healing does not supplement Healer healing but largely replaces it.

In a high level dungeon pull if the tank dies it's chaos because the tank role isn't fulfilled. If a DPS dies you lose a lot of damage output and thus dungeon progress until they're up because the DPS role isn't fulfilled. If a healer dies the tank just handles it and the healer role is still fulfilled.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

You know, people keep saying stuff like "You're a drop in the ocean" and "You can be replaced", you know what I say to that? "Don't threaten me with a good time". Someone else mind-numbingly mashing 1 on their keyboard while I have actual gameplay? Yes, all of my yes. Take the healer role, I don't want it, you'd be doing me a favour.

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Yeah, it's not like we are depriving ourselves of anything. The whole point of this is strike is that we don't enjoy the role anymore so we choose to play something else that we think is actually fun. It's just sad that the healer role has developed in such a way that a fair chunk of people who genuinely had fun before now can't connect with it any longer.

I'll be having a good time enjoying picto in DT.

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

For the sake of argument I have chosen to ignore the overwhelming condescension for the benefit of others in this thread.

If having more than two damage buttons is encroaching on the DPS role the elephant in the room is tanks. Tanks get a damage rotation with a burst and everything, Gunbreaker and the new Viper even share a secondary mechanic. This has not made 4 tanks the ideal dungeon group however because tank DPS only supplements DPS role DPS. Tank healing does not supplement Healer healing but largely replaces it.

In a high level dungeon pull if the tank dies it's chaos because the tank role isn't fulfilled. If a DPS dies you lose a lot of damage output and thus dungeon progress until they're up because the DPS role isn't fulfilled. If a healer dies the tank just handles it and the healer role is still fulfilled.

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I havent checked in a while but during shadowbringer healer damage output in trashmob aoe situations was also pretty cracked. I've seen an expert run where the healer lead in damage dealt up until the final boss, ahead of not only the tank but the other two dps aswell and neither were the kind of people that talesfromDF complains about on the regular. So if we take this mindset healers already massively encroach on the dps role, just in the most boring way possible: one button spam.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The biggest mystery to me is why the people who disagree with the thread topic are like 90% rude and arrogant about it. Where's all the hostility coming from? Did someone draw a pentagram out of Stanley cups or something? It's like a Karen convention keeps marching through.

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It's all over 4chan

Why do people hyperfocus on bad healers they have gotten over the years and argue that’s a reason tanks should be able to do the healers role for them

Why does nobody remember the garbage tanks or the garbage DPS they get and say that’s why the healers should do those jobs

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Originally Posted by JanineBeckinsale

I can't speak for all Tank players (and I hope you'll forgive my choice of words) but that's an utterly paranoiac and insane way of thinking.

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I disagree. You, as the tank, have a heal. Why not use it? It's logical to use your kit. But doing so removes the need for the healer. And also makes it so you don't need to rely on healers that might not be as good. Finally, it reaches a point where, when they do heal, it's annoying.

For example, if you are a Warrior and a Scholar puts Excogitation on you, it's like why waste DPS on me? And it doesn't activate at all. Or a WHM that uses Benediction when I just use Equilibrium or Bloodwhetting. It gets to the point of feeling annoying because you're doing that job yourself.

But objectively speaking, a tank shouldn't be feeling like they can heal that much over the healer to begin with.

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Originally Posted by PeppermintBrown

Yet on the other hand, you demand more active dps, demanding to dip into our role.

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I never understood this line of reasoning, tbh. They just want their healing downtime (which occurs quite often) to not be so goddamn boring. Play something like Aglaia as a healer and check how much downtime is in there, that shit's sleep inducing

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Originally Posted by ClayyLmao

I've only ever had one trollish healer, they threatened to not heal me if I kept pulling (I was playing MNK and was literally beside the Tank on every pull) so I told them that refusing to heal out of spite was a reportable offense, which I don't even know if it's tru but it shut them up. Here's the sad truth about this whole healer strike; 99% of healers are perfectly fine and realize that the rest of the playerbase wants them DPSing so that everyone can finish their roulettes, or their clears as fast as possible because they respect other people's time. Then you have this tiny, vocal minority that actually want everything to be way harder and take up more of everyone's time because their enjoyment comes first, damn everyone else. That's why I'm here. Because I see a group of selfish people trying to ruin everyone else's time so that they can have a negligible improvement to their rotation, all the while refusing to partake in anything harder than Normal Variant Dungeons or Extreme Trials.

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Not surprising you main the most braindead tank.

I support this forum thread about the healer role.

The direction of dumbing down the role and silencing it due to poor balancing of other roles is simply incomprehensible.

It is absolutely not healthy to play a healer right now.
DPS and tanks have way too many powerful regeneration/healing tools, and the worst part is that no DPS or tank players even asked for this, especially for the DPS role.
It is very clear that it has become urgent for Square Enix to nerf the sustain of tanks, particularly the warrior, who does everything better than other tanks and doesn't need a healer in dungeons.
This is neither normal nor healthy in a game based on a DPS/tank/healer triad.

Square Enix, please take players' feedback into account and make adjustments to the healer role so that it finally meets expectations.
Additionally, please reduce the healing/HOT tools for the DPS role; we don't want them, and they often come with a penalty on firepower.
Each role should have its own purpose in a game: tanks with high defense, DPS with high damage, and healers with satisfying healing kits.

We no longer want to see any instance, no matter how easy, completed without a healer.
Abolish the 1 tank and 3 DPS dungeon composition by reducing the sustain of the tanks involved.
Reduce the regeneration effects and AOE healing on the DPS role.

Please correct these design errors that should have been addressed when the Fatal Omega instance was cleared without a healer.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why do people hyperfocus on bad healers they have gotten over the years and argue that’s a reason tanks should be able to do the healers role for them

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I would argue current healer design is why we have so many bad healers in the first place. "Hey here's 18 different buttons anyway you only use 4 of them, GCD more like Glare cooldown" and people drawn to the role that just want to mindlessly press 1 and die to every mechanic because they're watching Netflix in the other window.

Hello again.
I posted what I noticed from yesterday's communication in my own way on the Japanese forum, and received some responses.
The first thing they are thinking about is what kind of player base you guys are thinking about; there is a huge difference from very casual players to those playing high difficulty contents.

Many people seem to think that if you care about casual users, it is not a good idea to overburden them with healers.
Also, some players who play mainly using PT finder and CF have never thought it was boring; adding that they can understand your opinion because when PT members are good enough and there was no need for extra heals, it is monotonous to play just throwing stones (Before 4.x, WHM was called "stone throwing machine" by some).
Some Japanese players also came to recognize that there were problems not only in tank and DPS skills, but also in content design, and some expressed that they thought this way when told.

Simply hearing "HEALERSTRIKE" or "STOP 11111" will lead to miscommunication, as some misunderstood the opinions and some came to believe that the movement was too radical.
However, if we specifically explain the problems with the content and the healing ability of T,D, JP players may gradually understand the true meaning.

Some users were surprised that the discussion in the EN forum was more heated than they had imagined, while others said that they had "seen similar discussions before (around 5.x?)."
One thing I would like to mention is that many Japanese users think that the posts of people who come to JP forums using translation tools seem very belligerent.
Depending on which translation tool you use, the impression you get is totally different depending on whether you use polite expressions peculiar to Japanese or not.
I don't want EN and JP to become enemies because of this (and probably you don't either).
If you ever come to JP's message boards, please be careful to use gentle expressions.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

k

https://i.ibb.co/VVzwjqJ/IMG-1471.jpg

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That's definetly a troll, who can say something like this with a straight face

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Originally Posted by Bun_Vivant

It's CBU3's role, which they give you the opportunity to play.

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As someone who defended SE and got labeled as white knight on multiple occasions, even I would feel embarrased by this statement

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Originally Posted by Nanananami773

Hello again.
I posted what I noticed from yesterday's communication in my own way on the Japanese forum, and received some responses.
The first thing they are thinking about is what kind of player base you guys are thinking about; there is a huge difference from very casual players to those playing high difficulty contents.

Many people seem to think that if you care about casual users, it is not a good idea to overburden them with healers.
Also, some players who play mainly using PT finder and CF have never thought it was boring; adding that they can understand your opinion because when PT members are good enough and there was no need for extra heals, it is monotonous to play just throwing stones (Before 4.x, WHM was called "stone throwing machine" by some).
Some Japanese players also came to recognize that there were problems not only in tank and DPS skills, but also in content design, and some expressed that they thought this way when told.

Simply hearing "HEALERSTRIKE" or "STOP 11111" will lead to miscommunication, as some misunderstood the opinions and some came to believe that the movement was too radical.
However, if we specifically explain the problems with the content and the healing ability of T,D, JP players may gradually understand the true meaning.

Some users were surprised that the discussion in the EN forum was more heated than they had imagined, while others said that they had "seen similar discussions before (around 5.x?)."
One thing I would like to mention is that many Japanese users think that the posts of people who come to JP forums using translation tools seem very belligerent.
Depending on which translation tool you use, the impression you get is totally different depending on whether you use polite expressions peculiar to Japanese or not.
I don't want EN and JP to become enemies because of this (and probably you don't either).
If you ever come to JP's message boards, please be careful to use gentle expressions.

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I agree with the general sentiment, but there are some problem with it.

Healers have expressed their concerns for multiple expansions, and much of that was properly and politely argumented and explained. And that got completely ignored. At the same time a tank like WAR gets all the attention it could ever want, seemingly because of some streamer that manufactures outrage. FF devs are giving of the wrong signals. If the FF devs and/or JP players want a a delicate silken gloves approach, they had to actively respond to those and ignore the manufactured outrage. Enough healers are completely fed up with that, so now things are getting more direct and hostile.

You're basically asking healers to go back to what they did before, which didn't work for the last 5+ years.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I disagree. You, as the tank, have a heal. Why not use it? It's logical to use your kit. But doing so removes the need for the healer. And also makes it so you don't need to rely on healers that might not be as good. Finally, it reaches a point where, when they do heal, it's annoying.

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Then that's a completely different thing. The blame, if you want to put one on someone, is to be put on the balance/design team, not on the players who are just using their tools.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

For example, if you are a Warrior and a Scholar puts Excogitation on you, it's like why waste DPS on me? And it doesn't activate at all. Or a WHM that uses Benediction when I just use Equilibrium or Bloodwhetting. It gets to the point of feeling annoying because you're doing that job yourself.

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If I'm tanking and see an Excog on me, all I'm thinking is that I'm paired with a smart healer and that I can save my cooldowns for a later time as I want to take advantage of that Excog proc.

And if I'm WHM I just need to be smart about my Bene and be prepared to use it when I know my WAR doesn't have their BW available.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

They gave valid concerns even though they partially agree with us. I dont see why you're all to negative?
Though, I guess you got a bit icky cause you got called out for your rather aggressive post in the jp thread?

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I made multiple posts over the last few days which all circle back to "play dps if you want to dps", so yes I got tilted in the end because it was like facing a brick wall. They gave no valid concerns at all, it was like walking on eggs not to bruise them. And it was even more appalling since the concerns they raised were no concerns at all, precisely because it didn't concern this type of players. It was for people who want an engaging gameplay to begin with, which doesn't impact them.

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Originally Posted by Sesera

The problem is that you either have it your way and any time a healer F'd up and die its a wipe unless the boss is almost dead and you punish the all party for the healer mistake or you gives the party a chance to succeed.

A few month ago i had a Ghimlyt Dark run where the healer dc'd mid fight on last boss nobody got mad when the paladin started to keep us alive with clemency quite the opposite actually.

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Genuine question, but isn't this the original goal of the trinity: different responsibilities that each role needs to enact to ensure joint success, and any role failing will cause a cost (e.g. a wipe) for the group?

Tanks not managing the enemy --> enemy gets out of control, kills the group
Healers not managing health --> team dies
DPS not providing enough DPS --> can't kill boss in time/ trigger enrage --> kills the group/duty fails

I know this is not necessarily the state we are in right now (at least in casual content) but I think ideally trinity-based content should be designed in a way that each role has its distinctive responsibility and that their contribution to success (or failure thereof) is more or less valued equally.

Any of the roles not performing well should endanger everyone's victory imo. DPS not being able to execute their rotations and securing enough damage while doing mechanics should also punish the group, just as a healer or a tank not doing their job does.

I'm not saying that the trinity is the end all be all. I do enjoy the open system of PVP quite a lot. I just think that if you enforce a trinity its necessity should actually be reflected in the encounter design and the way the group has to play together.

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Originally Posted by Teno

I made multiple posts over the last few days which all circle back to "play dps if you want to dps", so yes I got tilted in the end because it was like facing a brick wall. They gave no valid concerns at all, it was like walking on eggs not to bruise them. And it was even more appalling since the concerns they raised were no concerns at all, precisely because it didn't concern this type of players. It was for people who want an engaging gameplay to begin with, which doesn't impact them.

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When even the most formal english you make is lost in translation, we need to be more receptive. Not to mention cultural differences is also a contributing factor.

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

I would argue current healer design is why we have so many bad healers in the first place. "Hey here's 18 different buttons anyway you only use 4 of them, GCD more like Glare cooldown" and people drawn to the role that just want to mindlessly press 1 and die to every mechanic because they're watching Netflix in the other window.

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This is entirely true. This is a role you pick when you want to get something done while 90% afk or with the brain turned off, because you can perfectly get away with it with almost no impact on your contribution. The only measure that can tell a healer did something cool is on the rare rescue use to save someone in a clutch.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

Oh man, I feel this one. I don't think I'm a particularly good healer, just good enough to keep the party alive most of the time. But so often, when I queue into content as a DPS, at least one of the healers has zero clue what they're doing, Medica II spammers included. Not using Esuna to remove Doom in Dun Scaith, not healing anyone besides the tank (sometimes not even the tank), never using Raise... It's suffering. Healing genuinely is not hard, how are these people so clueless?

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It's been stated several times in this thread in addition to other places that healers aren't needed to clear content.

Since healers aren't needed to clear content, then there's no reason to learn how to heal. They can level up healing jobs by just dealing damage for the sake of achievements if they want.

But some noticed that healers are still needed for Duty Finder to form parties even though they aren't needed to clear the content. They choose to queue as healer for the fast queue and then can be lazy on their free ride to loot. After all someone has to queue for the useless role, might as well be them.

And thus the swarm of healers, good and bad, appeared out of the depths to replace the striking healers when Dawntrail released...

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Originally Posted by Nanananami773

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Thank you for sharing JP thoughts, it's very interesting see discussion between the two sides here!

When it comes to making video games, I think a common and successful tactic to make it "easy to play, hard to master." In other words, lowering the skill floor (the minimum skill level required) to invite new players to try it out, and raising the skill ceiling (the highest amount of skill expression possible) to keep veterans interested in the game. Making a game both accessible and engaging requires keeping the skill floor as low as possible, and raising the skill ceiling as high as possible.

Currently, I think the skill floor for healers, which can be considered just keeping the party alive, is low, which is a good thing. However, the skill ceiling, which can be considered any kind of optimization while the party is still alive, can be raised much higher.

Healers have an abundance of healing abilities that do the same job as what their GCD heals already did, for no cost of MP or damage. For example, AST's Celestial Opposition does exactly what Aspected Helios does. SCH's Fey Blessing can feel like Indominability, or even the new Seraphism feeling very similar to Dissipation except that you don't have to eat the fairy as a cost. In general, I feel like having healers depend more on GCD heals and replacing the redundant ability heals with more interesting utility or attack abilities is a good step towards raising the skill ceiling and keeping the skill floor low.

I don't want to exclude casual healers, but I believe that using GCD heals properly is a part of the skill floor, because you have to level up almost all of the healers using only GCD heals in lower level content. So that's why I believe we should start replacing overabundant healing abilities with other kinds of abilities. I think this kind of design for healer kits can support any direction taken with battle content, whether it stays relatively predictable to heal or if more damage intensive mechanics are introduced.

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

I would argue current healer design is why we have so many bad healers in the first place. "Hey here's 18 different buttons anyway you only use 4 of them, GCD more like Glare cooldown" and people drawn to the role that just want to mindlessly press 1 and die to every mechanic because they're watching Netflix in the other window.

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I also think that all these oGCDs do not make healing easier for casual healers as its too complicated to pick what to use with too many options, especially since casual content = roulettes which involves a lot of syncing down where they are taken away so most of the time they aren't even in the position to use them.

Modern healer tooltips are absolutely hot garbage at conveying their actual effects

You can see this with seraphism

Ask a SCH main what seraphism is and they will tell you “ugly spreadlo amplifier”
Ask someone not very knowledgeable about SCH but decently knowledgeable about healers and you’ll get “pure healing god mode”
Ask someone who has no idea about healers to read the tooltip and explain it and you’ll probably get a blank look

The healing tooltips need to be so much better written

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

But some noticed that healers are still needed for Duty Finder to form parties even though they aren't needed to clear the content. They choose to queue as healer for the fast queue and then can be lazy on their free ride to loot. After all someone has to queue for the useless role, might as well be them.

And thus the swarm of healers, good and bad, appeared out of the depths to replace the striking healers when Dawntrail released...

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That is what votekick is for, and I intend to use it on every healer expecting a free ride.

Not that I will have many opportunities to do so, since I'll be running war/pld with three dps buddies for all of the msq. Instant que times and faster dungeons clears!

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Originally Posted by Teno

A few of us asked questions on the japanese forums regarding their stance on the healer design, and it seems that they indeed like this type of braindead 111 gameplay. It does not bode well......

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Looks like you choose the wrong story-driven theme-park JRPG MMO to get invested in.
Be careful not to succumb to the sunk-cost fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Ask a SCH main what seraphism is and they will tell you “ugly spreadlo amplifier”

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"Ugly global whispering dawn spreadlo amplifier"

The ignorance of the trolls. If I had a gil everytime a clown shows up, I'd still have 1. Cannot really tell if they're the entire circus right now.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

Genuine question, but isn't this the original goal of the trinity: different responsibilities that each role needs to enact to ensure joint success, and any role failing will cause a cost (e.g. a wipe) for the group?

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I doubt it. For one thing, every job has to be able to clear the solo content of the MSQ in a reasonable amount of time and with only a modest level of skill. So "tanks" and "healers" need to have decent DPS, and DPS needs some survivability. Unless you want the kit for a job to change radically when you enter multi-player content, this inescapably leads to the roles of the trinity becoming less distinct.

Alolalo Island (sp?) is an interesting example. The kit is modified, of course, but I found clear times didn't vary much based on which role I or my spouse used (or between solo and group runs). Clear times do vary by class in other content of course: in a ridiculous example, I can't match the 7 second clear time we can get for Howling Eye Extreme on a pair of unsynced WARs when we do it on other classes, but that's a way-off-the-norms case.

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Originally Posted by Nanananami773

Hello again.
I posted what I noticed from yesterday's communication in my own way on the Japanese forum, and received some responses.
The first thing they are thinking about is what kind of player base you guys are thinking about; there is a huge difference from very casual players to those playing high difficulty contents.

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Hello, thank you for relaying the Japanese view points, I think most of us that go to discuss the healer situation over there, do not necessarily mean to be rude. It is to gauge Japanese opinion with our own opinion, I assume there is just a translation error going on, maybe because of the translation tools, I don't know. English is hard to gauge whether someone is being rude unless otherwise obvious or made apparent, as English typically does not carry any formal expression in its volume, it does have polite phrases, but the language doesn't change to meet a "polite" form. Though parallel to that ideology, lots of opinions on the English forum have gotten outright ignored by the developers for years, not just a few years either, so there might be some that are smitten (disheartened), and I believe justifiable so. We have seen the other roles encroach upon the Healer role, without any exchange for them doing so. Example, shake it off from warrior is able to cover multiple mechanics, effectively leaving the healer role to basically only spam one button (glare, broil, malefic, dosis with the occasional DoT skill and off cooldown skill such as (Afflatus, Phelgma, Energy Drain, etc)), while that job also sees that it gains a proper rotation. A lot of us find that to be unfair to the healer role, that they get to cover our role while we remain only doing the later...this not limited to dungeons but also: extremes, savages, ultimates. It has gotten really bad to the point where they effectively replaced us, that is the opinion shared among the forum...or at least some of us. Even casual players have seen this problem in varying degrees, making their experience, well, less fun.

Again thank you for seeing the time and visiting the English forum.

After browsing this thread I just feel bad for the devs lol

I don't think the healer role is the main issue. It's a much broader issue with player skill levels being all over the place. You have high level players who have no problem doing a dungeon without a healer but you also have players who really struggle with even simple dungeon content or players who ask you to "slow down" and pull one pack at a time in a dungeon. If you don't comply things can turn toxic pretty fast which is exactly what the dev's do not want (leads to more tickets, and upset player base). Terrible experiences in dungeons can easily lead to loss in subscribers/player base.

I also think a lot of you see content creators or high skill level players who breeze through content and think "well that isn't right! you shouldn't be able to do that!" meanwhile a lot of you probably can't perform at the same level. Just seeing that something is POSSIBLE doesn't mean that it is broken or imbalanced.

The healing role in particular has the highest variation in skill out of any role. A competent healer can drag a terrible group through content kicking and screaming. A bad healer drags down a group and slows clear rates more than any other role and can be very annoying to the rest of the group (especially when there is often unavoidable raid wide aoe dmg etc).

The issue is player skill. The game needs to teach people better how to play the game and their specific roles. In particular the healing role. Many players who main healer don't even know what a rotation is. Hall of the novice is great but it is not nearly enough and is completely skippable content. Mentor network is often full of misinformation and people just looking to boost their ego and not actually attempt to help other players to learn. The systems to teach players have not been working for a very long time.

I see the changes to tanks and dps having more self-sustain a direct response to this skill gap. It is not a perfect solution but it is easier to implement than to expect the community to self-correct or teach new players how to properly heal. This is not an issue that is fixable over night; it will take a long time. I think the biggest issue with the game during the last two expansions has been the complete lack of midcore content.

Content is either extremely easy or extremely difficult/punishing. Bridging the gap between normal content and Savage content is a much more glaring issue in my opinion and the solution is not clear.

Please ignore the trolls, we have to keep feedback constructive otherwise mods will shut down this thread.

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Originally Posted by Rayplicant

After browsing this thread I just feel bad for the devs lol

I don't think the healer role is the main issue. It's a much broader issue with player skill levels being all over the place. You have high level players who have no problem doing a dungeon without a healer but you also have players who really struggle with even simple dungeon content or players who ask you to "slow down" and pull one pack at a time in a dungeon. If you don't comply things can turn toxic pretty fast which is exactly what the dev's do not want (leads to more tickets, and upset player base). Terrible experiences in dungeons can easily lead to loss in subscribers/player base.

I also think a lot of you see content creators or high skill level players who breeze through content and think "well that isn't right! you shouldn't be able to do that!" meanwhile a lot of you probably can't perform at the same level. Just seeing that something is POSSIBLE doesn't mean that it is broken or imbalanced.

The healing role in particular has the highest variation in skill out of any role. A competent healer can drag a terrible group through content kicking and screaming. A bad healer drags down a group and slows clear rates more than any other role and can be very annoying to the rest of the group (especially when there is often unavoidable raid wide aoe dmg etc).

The issue is player skill. The game needs to teach people better how to play the game and their specific roles. In particular the healing role. Many players who main healer don't even know what a rotation is. Hall of the novice is great but it is not nearly enough and is completely skippable content. Mentor network is often full of misinformation and people just looking to boost their ego and not actually attempt to help other players to learn. The systems to teach players have not been working for a very long time.

I see the changes to tanks and dps having more self-sustain a direct response to this skill gap. It is not a perfect solution but it is easier to implement than to expect the community to self-correct or teach new players how to properly heal. This is not an issue that is fixable over night; it will take a long time. I think the biggest issue with the game during the last two expansions has been the complete lack of midcore content.

Content is either extremely easy or extremely difficult/punishing. Bridging the gap between normal content and Savage content is a much more glaring issue in my opinion and the solution is not clear.

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So the devs refuse to update old systems to better teach players how to play healer and offer content to actually bridge the gap between cure 1 spammer and competent healer and instead “fix” the problem by making the healer near redundant and then I’m also supposed to feel sorry for the devs for digging their own hole

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Originally Posted by JanineBeckinsale

I can't speak for all Tank players (and I hope you'll forgive my choice of words) but that's an utterly paranoiac and insane way of thinking. Unless you weren't serious of course.

Tanks have tools to reduce the amount of damage they take and thus their chances of dying (and wiping the group), they simply use them, trying to be as efficient for the group as they can be (as all party members should).

Now, I can agree that some of these tools are borderline overpowered, if not completely, but I very much doubt the whole "Tanks using cooldowns is a way to assert dominance on puny weak useless healers."

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Yeah I don't really view it as "lol I'm gonna assert dominance over everyone here," I view it more as "if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself." Warrior, in its current form, is perfect for this. I'm sure confirmation bias plays a big role in my line of thinking, but it seems like every time I try to not play tank in something, I should've gone tank. Can't dps because then the tank is gonna do single pulls and the healer's just gonna stand there doing literally nothing. Can't heal because then the tank is gonna do single pulls and the reaper's not gonna apply their death's design debuff and the bard's not gonna use songs or dots. So, tank it is.

I can play warrior, I can pull to the wall, I don't have to care about my healer or dps because I can solo the entire dungeon. Sure, it's gonna take awhile, but at least I know I can do it. So... sticking with what others have said, my bad experiences in the past have shaped my way of thinking here, "if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself." I'm not really with the healer strike, simply because I don't play healer (outside of warrior lol) but I'm certainly not against it, either. It's good to see people actually trying to do something and actually trying to enact change. I highly doubt it'll actually go anywhere, but I respect it nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Bun_Vivant

I doubt it. For one thing, every job has to be able to clear the solo content of the MSQ in a reasonable amount of time and with only a modest level of skill.

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This is literally what Brilliant Conviction does. We don't need the tank kit to solo dungeons to get through the solo fights at the end of ARR and healers don't need to match melee DPS damage output to get through that one Endwalker DPS check with the stupid orbs.

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Originally Posted by Bun_Vivant

I doubt it. For one thing, every job has to be able to clear the solo content of the MSQ in a reasonable amount of time and with only a modest level of skill. So "tanks" and "healers" need to have decent DPS, and DPS needs some survivability. Unless you want the kit for a job to change radically when you enter multi-player content, this inescapably leads to the roles of the trinity becoming less distinct.

Alolalo Island (sp?) is an interesting example. The kit is modified, of course, but I found clear times didn't vary much based on which role I or my spouse used (or between solo and group runs). Clear times do vary by class in other content of course: in a ridiculous example, I can't match the 7 second clear time we can get for Howling Eye Extreme on a pair of unsynced WARs when we do it on other classes, but that's a way-off-the-norms case.

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Hm tbh I don't agree with this because if you want to commit to a trinity system then I don't think that solo content should be able hold group content "hostage" like this. If solo content is the weak link then I'd rather have solo content be adapted than group-based classes having to be molded in a way to accomodate the occasional solo duty in the MSQ. In the end the foundation of this MMO is still group play. Even in trusts you still play with an NPC party. So in the context of a trinity design I think orienting class design towards group content should take precedence.

I don't know how many people truly think MSQ solo duties are all that fun anyways (or at least on par with the much more common group content). I think healers struggling in solo content should be tackled differently. For example by adding extra skills as you can do in variant dungeons. A DPS in a solo duty could get a heal button like the pvp recuperate skill and healers could get an extra dps button. Is this the pinnacle of game design and fun? Definitely not. But I'd rather have group content be fun than the rather rare solo duties that often feel kind of forced/contrived anyway.

Or you could also take a bit of an eccentric route and use PVP classes for solo content including pvp actions like recuperate, purify and guard. With pvp classes you already have kits that make every class a viable dps with survivability readily available while being relatively simple. So you wouldn't have to develop anything new. It could also be a nice advertisment for pvp because people would be exposed to its gameplay flavour within the MSQ and might have their interest piqued.

I'd actually really enjoy it if the pvp kit design was appreciated and applicable in some limited contend beyond pvp since I do think they are really well executed. Certain solo content (with the necessary adaptations) could be a good place for this.

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Originally Posted by Rayplicant

The issue is player skill.

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So if the issue is the player skill gap, how does removing fail states fix this in any way?

If a healer is bad and they get carried through content while they're on the floor, they will remain bad. You can't force improvement by taking away friction.

If a healer is failing, the tank should be able to support the healer, yes. But if the healer is dead on the floor, the tank should not be able to survive infinitely, that would be indicative of imbalance in between roles. The tank should be able to survive a while after the healer dies and maybe eke out a win through their own skill, but the tank should not be able to solo 75% of a boss.

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Originally Posted by Bun_Vivant

I doubt it. For one thing, every job has to be able to clear the solo content of the MSQ in a reasonable amount of time and with only a modest level of skill. So "tanks" and "healers" need to have decent DPS, and DPS needs some survivability. Unless you want the kit for a job to change radically when you enter multi-player content, this inescapably leads to the roles of the trinity becoming less distinct.

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This more or less had been solved by HW, with the introduction of 'easy' and 'very easy' modes, as well as the super Echo you get for every solo duty at every point in the game now that was introduced in StB. It grants a permanent HP regen that becomes more potent at lower total HP%. So, healers don't even need to heal themselves in solo duties, thanks to this, and even DPS that get hit by a bunch of avoidable stuff and don't know about their survival tools do just fine as long as they don't take hits back to back to back.

What is almost universally absent from solo duties are overall enrage DPS checks, like the kind that start counting down from the moment you pull a boss. You only see phase-based ones in solo duties, often constructed in a way that makes it difficult to fail, with the notable exceptions like 4.55's on certain jobs, though again that usually has more to do with a player's gear and the fact that they've yet been tested alone by the game in this way.

Anyways, solo duties can and should be tweaked on a case by case basis, and because they're solo, the devs are free to do as much behind the scenes as they like. There's no reason that 4.0 AST level 61 solo Zenos needs to have the same HP total as level 61 solo SAM Zenos, or that he needs to hit as weakly as he does for 61 solo WAR Zenos. And in all of that, that poor AST only has Combust 2 and Malefic 2 to spam, and buffs to raise their own damage by 6% (I'm sure they totally feel the impact of that, thus reinforcing how much they'll feel the impact of their central mechanic in a party that still might not have any specifically melee or ranged dps to buff for 90% of the game).

They already do this partially for Duty Support NPC scaling. They also irrevocably changed many old encounters so their duty AI could handle it rather than making versions of those encounters for their solo mode. A solo mode that doesn't even allow you to take 1 or 2 friends in case you don't have a group of 4 for some reason, by the way.

There are approaches to complaints that exist that may resolve them without outright removing things, such as the healer role, from the game.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why do people hyperfocus on bad healers they have gotten over the years and argue that’s a reason tanks should be able to do the healers role for them

Why does nobody remember the garbage tanks or the garbage DPS they get and say that’s why the healers should do those jobs

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Maybe because a bad healer is more immediately noticeable to people who aren't as observant? A bad tank not using their mits will just get carried by the healer in the vast majority of cases. Failed a tank swap? You get a rez. A bad DPS in normal content just means the fight takes longer. A bad healer not healing or using Esuna to cleanse Doom means people die and everyone notices it.