Warrior Rework to Balance the job

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Me trying to break TBN when it gets buffed to 400% my HP pool:

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That's what the {every AA one-shots non-tanks} levels of damage is for. You wouldn't want a run to even be imaginable without a tank, right?

Obviously, if a single job is overpowered, we could just scale up every other job in its role, all that the role's non-universal outputs directly interact with, and all encounter damage, right? It's not like we need even a vague modicum of inter-role balance beyond a fixedly tank perspective, surely?

What's a trinity or compositional flexibility anyways? I never understood why we needed such fancy words for "flush the healer once you have enough water pressure, duh."

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

If people are willing to compromise, then let's try to compromise. I put forward a suggestion earlier that dungeons contain enemies with the ability to lower healing which would go after the tank.

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This seems... fine(?), but is very weirdly roundabout way to buff (TBN) or nerf (BW/NF) a single outlier, if that is your intent (rather than just a bit of variance that could, say, add a 'curse' mechanic to dungeons only when in a roulette or where countered by a 'kiss' mechanic directly related to it elsewhere and not at a timing that would allow players to act only under the latter).

If you don't want target-scaled sustain to trivialize content, then you need to provide compensatory kit and context to the competing jobs and amp the difficulty of content to match (and, technically, the amp contribution of other roles each in compensation, which then obliges amping the difficulty of the content yet again)... or you just fix the scalars where broken instead of raising the house to deal with the single floorboard everyone trips on.

Of the two, the latter is the far less costly and far less error-prone.

Remember, so long as a fight is cleared by damage, the only perspective or metric that ultimately matters is rDPS; it's simply that there can be many, many types of contribution thereto, many of them very indirect.

Give a Bard a taunt or a pacify and, so long as there's something they can briefly kite or an otherwise difficult-to-avoid special attack they can cancel and not enough free heals to deal with everything nor eHP going in to avoid someone's death without a GCD heal, that's likely rDPS gained. If you have a proximity based AoE and a strong melee DPS and you allow an ally to move faster or extended attack range or attack 20% faster in exchange for being slowed 20% for an equal duration later, that can still be an extra melee attacks' advantage over a ranged fallback options' worth of rDPS. Etc., etc.

But, it's not usually worth constraining content around outliers. That'd be to make, in effect, every house with unnecessary lift and a relatively sunken floorboard; balance the issue later and you return the same issue that led to the awkward "solution" in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Mate, "Warrior players" (not necessarily mains or veterans, but "Warrior players" nonetheless) have been the largest community driver for the removal or homogenization of most things to step out of line among tanks:

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A lot of what you said is exaggerated, false, or was a result of the devs making changes that no one asked for.

• Holmgang wasn't changed because Hallowed "stepped out of line", it was because 2.0 WAR had basically no mitigation skills and was useless in Coil compared to PLD. It got its own unique mitigations in 2.1- IB on the GCD, Vengeance with a lower % and lower cooldown than Sentinel, Holmgang with a target requirement, 6s duration, root and no true invuln.

• I don't think Cover ever worked with Hallowed, but it does work with other mitigation skills.

• All jobs got new DPS skills going into HW. WAR getting Deliverance to have dps versions of Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone was a reasonable addition, your point about PLD not having a slight DPS lead just comes down to how the devs decided to balance the jobs. It's not even homogenisation, stances on PLD/DRK and WAR were pretty different (which led to lots of complaints because PLD/DRK were on the GCD).

• The pacification on Berserk was removed in 4.0, at the same time Shake it Off was added, so SiO was useless from the start. I think the only thing you could use it on was Exdeath's Doom, and you weren't always going to get that. A self-Esuna isn't a viable skill, so the devs chose to change it to a shield.

• People were pretty happy with Raw Intuition/Nascent Flash after NF got changed to be usable on yourself. I doubt many people, if any, asked for it to be changed to flat healing.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

So, if everything else I've suggested is so unacceptable to you, how do we balance normal content around WAR levels of self sustain? Assuming even that we boost all the other tanks to the same level.

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Leave sustain how it is, increase damage done/frequency by trash and bosses in dungeons. WAR will require healing between Bloodwhettings, and healers will have a reason to cast more than 3 oGCDs per trash pack/1 oGCD every time a boss does a raidwide.
There's already a few trash packs in DT that do a bit more damage, like the horses after the first boss of Strayborough. They can autoattack and do a named attack at the same time for a big chunk of damage, add more of that.
I wouldn't really care if Bloodwhetting went back to being a % of damage dealt, but I do think it needs to keep the healing on multiple targets. WAR has had that since Bloodbath in ARR.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Leave sustain how it is, increase damage done/frequency by trash and bosses in dungeons. WAR will require healing between Bloodwhettings, and healers will have a reason to cast more than 3 oGCDs per trash pack/1 oGCD every time a boss does a raidwide.
There's already a few trash packs in DT that do a bit more damage, like the horses after the first boss of Strayborough. They can autoattack and do a named attack at the same time for a big chunk of damage, add more of that.

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I'm glad someone is willing to engage with one of my suggestions, what say you to taking that a step further by throwing around more interrupts and esuna effects for good measure?

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

And yet not only are we not infringing on others because our egos need stroking, were winning as is with a fun job. So whose really doing bad here hmm~?

Not our fault the forums have a few people wanting to loop a braindead desire in a vain attempt in hoping this time it somehow works.

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WAR makes the job of healers unfun, it's as simple as that just admit you don't care about healers and enjoy being op in dungeons. Trying to run around this is dumb.
Seeing cope about WAR aoe heal not being a problem is annoying just say you find it fun and don't care.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

WAR makes the job of healers unfun, it's as simple as that just admit you don't care about healers and enjoy being op in dungeons. Trying to run around this is dumb.
Seeing cope about WAR aoe heal not being a problem is annoying just say you find it fun and don't care.

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Healers aren't fun because they don't have a proper rotation. Dungeons are just a small part of the game and expecting the game to be balanced around that and not higher end content is the bigger cope. Although yes, I do in fact like being able to keep a party alive when the healer decides to eat dirt in easy content. Not my fault they can't dodge normal AOE's we've been seeing for years and years.

It's as simple as that and the game has only made self sustain even stronger. If SE can remove then give back Energy Drain within a patch, or change up VPR to remove Noxious Gnash real quick, they had plenty of time. Make healers fun, not at anyone else's expense. If you wanna keep believing SE is going to do that though then keep repeating history~. Hasn't worked during EW, hasn't worked on release of DT, it won't happen any time soon. Believe it or not, your call.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Dungeons are just a small part of the game and expecting the game to be balanced around that and not higher end content is the bigger cope. Although yes, I do in fact like being able to keep a party alive when the healer decides to eat dirt in easy content.

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Here's all I needed, you being honest that you don't care and find it fun to have a self heal benediction and you want to do the healers job. The rest is just fluff and self justification for playing a job that breaks the trinity balance. I don't actually really care either if I was able to replace tanks as a DPS id do it too.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Here's all I needed, you being honest that you don't care and find it fun to have a self heal benediction and you want to do the healers job. The rest is just fluff and self justification for playing a job that breaks the trinity balance. I don't actually really care either if I was able to replace tanks as a DPS id do it too.

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You can be sad about it all you want, doesn't change anything. Meanwhile in content that actually matters, yknow on the higher end? Yeah, it's a good general use cooldown that doesn't break anything. I don't care about silly opinions not rooted in reality though yes. Go ahead and just try a healerless run in an average PF party of EX1 as a WAR and tell me how that goes though~. If you can somehow heal all of that without a cotank doing all the healing or needing some summoners and red mages, I won't believe it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This seems... fine(?), but is very weirdly roundabout way to buff (TBN) or nerf (BW/NF) a single outlier...

If you don't want target-scaled sustain to trivialize content, then you need to provide compensatory kit and context to the competing jobs and amp the difficulty of content to match (and, technically, the amp contribution of other roles each in compensation, which then obliges amping the difficulty of the content yet again)... or you just fix the scalars where broken instead of raising the house to deal with the single floorboard everyone trips on.

Of the two, the latter is the far less costly and far less error-prone.

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I feel the same way, but the obvious solution of reducing WAR healing isn't liked by some. I don't really understand it but also I don't want to dismiss differing opinions. It would also be nice to move the discussion toward a consensus.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Healers aren't fun because they don't have a proper rotation.

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DPS do, so if you want a rotation you can play that role. Turning healers into DPS is taking away from what we have so it's not preferable. More attack options would great for healers, but they should also remain healers.

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Dungeons are just a small part of the game and expecting the game to be balanced around that and not higher end content is the bigger cope.

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A small part in what way? A large portion of the player base participates in them often and they're the most accessible (in terms of preparation, you just queue, no need to find a party or look up guides) form of content we have.

Whatever the case, at the end of the day WAR is enough of a problem in dungeons that people are complaining about it.

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Make healers fun, not at anyone else's expense.

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As long as FF14 is a multiplayer game, party cohesion is going to be a design consideration. Classes that negate other classes are undesirable exactly because they exist at other's expense. It is possible to change the rest of the game to address and issue like that, but obviously that's less likely to happen than fixing the problem itself. It's also a bit unfair to people that don't want to see the game they like become something different.

I have my own ideas about what I'd like to see changed but I don't request things that don't fit with the spirit of the game. Reducing WAR healing in one specific context hardly seems difficult or problematic. If your concern is never wanting to reset a boss no matter what you don't even need Bloodwhetting. PLD has had that capability with Clemency for a while, but Clemency at least fills an emergency role that doesn't clash with healer responsibilities.

While reigning in WAR would do a lot to help dungeon healing, it's not the source of healer issues, and that is well understood. Yet, there is no denying that a self sufficient tank (or any role) is problematic for the game. Personally I'd like to remove self healing from tanks entirely. If it must exist anyway then keep it to a reasonable level so that healers can function as they were designed and as healer players expect them to.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

WAR makes the job of healers unfun, it's as simple as that just admit you don't care about healers and enjoy being op in dungeons. Trying to run around this is dumb.
Seeing cope about WAR aoe heal not being a problem is annoying just say you find it fun and don't care.

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WAR aoe is heal is fun and every tank should have access to it. Healers can just cope with not having anything to do 12 seconds per minute.