Connecting the DoTs: A Summoner Guide

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Originally Posted by luizf_sp

Until ACT DoT parsing is fixed we can't say for sure whats the best way handle this. Right now, the dot damage provided by spell speed is not being parsed correctly (confirmed this yesterday with a spell speed build).

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I'm not using parses. I'm calculating potency per second, which is arguably more accurate than actual dps is because of stats and parser inaccuracies. I do this to find the theoretically highest dps opener we can do.

The trade off for going into DWT asap is you spend less time reapplying dots and get all of your dots (plus miasma and shadowflare) snapshot within trick attack dwt and xpot windows. If you rush into DWT using both the openers suggested that rush, DWT goes up at exactly the same time trick attack does. If we could get it up a GCD earlier you'd be able to hit DF with trick attack up. Yes you lose 250 potency off not festering, however your dots gain roughly double the potency per tick. Bio is coming in at 69.696 potency per second. Solo, your opener is probably superior but that's not why we're doing this.

FYI I'm not factoring in astro buffs because they're random and you won't always get them at the right time. It's better for them to go to other people. They'd almost have to hold onto them for you to get them snap shot properly.

Because SMN relies so much on dots it might not be a good idea to just look at potency per second due to spell speed increasing both the cast speed and damage of dots.

i.e. Ruin = 80 Potency but Bio relative to Ruin could be a total of 270 Potency (completely dependant on Spell Speed value + Enhanced Pet)

My thoughts on an optimal opener

Shadow Flare placed

Minimum 2.3 GCD

B2MB -> Pain + Fester -> R2 -> Rouse/Spur -> R2 -> Enkindle + Radiant Shield -> R2 -> R2 -> Fester
R -> R -> R2 + RS -> Bio + Pot -> SC SF -> Trance + 3D -> R2 + Fester + Pain -> R3, R3, R3,R3, R2 + Fester + Death Flare

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Because SMN relies so much on dots it might not be a good idea to just look at potency per second due to spell speed increasing both the cast speed and damage of dots.

i.e. Ruin = 80 Potency but Bio relative to Ruin could be a total of 270 Potency (completely dependant on Spell Speed value + Enhanced Pet)

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Naw, the whole point of SS scaling DoTs is that dps is constant - both scale together with SS. The new scaling actually makes it easier to deal with dots and their relationship with other abilities.

tl;dr: dps stays constant (scales constant), dpct increases.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Naw, the whole point of SS scaling DoTs is that dps is constant - both scale together with SS. The new scaling actually makes it easier to deal with dots and their relationship with other abilities.

tl;dr: dps stays constant (scales constant), dpct increases.

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But.....non dot skill damage isn't effected by spell speed outside of a shorter cast time. Which the dot cast time is shortened as well so that cancels out that difference and all you are left with is Dot 1 Potency > Non-Dot 1 Potency

I think the point of SS on dots was to equalize the balancing of SMN damage to other classes (instead of SS being entirely useless as a stat)

I don't think it will make it easier to deal with dot scaling VS other skills at all.

Look at Fester (300 Potency) - with 0 damage increase from Spell Speed. How much Spell Speed on a 240 Potency Bio until
Bio >= Fester in Damage output?

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

But.....non dot skill damage isn't effected by spell speed outside of a shorter cast time. Which the dot cast time is shortened as well so that cancels out that difference and all you are left with is Dot 1 Potency > Non-Dot 1 Potency

The point of SS on dots was the equalize the balancing of SMN to other classes?

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The point of SS on dots was to make SS 100% efficiency instead of 50% efficiency. SS functions like det for dots basically. When we get an idea of how SS affects dots I'll factor that in. Hopefully the simulator comes out soon. :s

Keep in mind though that the buff to dots wasn't a smn specific buff and affects all classes and every other class factors dots in the same way I am. Before it was like dots 1 pot < non dot 1 pot and now its more like dots = non dots. Thats why most everyone avoided skill/spell speed minus a few fringe cases for allowing an extra gcd during something along with resource problems

That said the difference was a lot larger given smns lack of high raw potency hits. On classes bereft of real dot dmg and no resource problems (im looking at you blm) ss was king.

This however is a discussion on stat weights, not rotations.

1 Shorter cast time for nukes = greater dps
2 Shorter cast time for dots = no dps gain
3 Increased dot damage due to ss = greater dps

1 = 3

So that is the status of that.

Yes fester (and other cooldown nukes, like enkindle) are not affected by SS. But our basic rotation, from GCD to GCD, DoTs and non DoTs, now scales together with each other and that makes models actually more accurate, as you don't have to account for GCD. Simply take the baseline 2.5 gcd, then scale the damage from both DoTs and ruin together.

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Originally Posted by AiiroOkami

luizf_sp, I think that your opener is pretty good tbh, but I think you use too much skills oGCD while you could use GCD skills.
I made some changes to resolve this problem :
Always using Ifrit :
Rouse + Spur before pull.
Bio > Enkidle > Bio II > Radiant Shield > Miasma > Ruin II > Swiftcast > Fester > Shadow Flare > Painflare > Ruin II > Raging Strike > Ruin > Bio > Fester > Aetherflow > Pot > DW Trance > Ruin II > Tri-Disaster > Fester > Ruin III > Painflare > Ruin III > Fester > Deathflare

With this opener you don't have that much downtime and you optimize your DPS with using a GCD skill whenever you can.
Feel free to suggest some modifications, if we work together we can find the best opener :)

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A few inefficiencies I can spot initially from seeing how everything fits up on the spreadsheet.

First, your TD doesn't line up with Trick Attack because you go into DWT later losing the extra 16% dmg it gains. Everything I've read says that dmg buffs are multiplicative rather than static increases, so this makes the 10% from trick attack a lot larger than the 10% it shows. Second, you can fit 3 more GCDs in DWT if you end with ruin 2. You'll be cutting it VERY close if you don't have enough spell speed but I was able to JUST barely do it in 145 gear and 180 gear has made it a lot easier. Third, there is an error in there. Your 3rd fester is impossible so I removed it.

Lastly, the entire rotation (taken until your buffed dots wear off, including reapplication of new buffs) is only 146.44336 pps. Very much lower than the DWT rushes. Even with my inaccuracies on them the difference only amounts to like a 5 pps difference from what they should be. (I also used RS as 25% cause for some reason I was convinced it was, and it took a while to fix) If I take it until you end with DF like I do with the others, its only 162.98 pps. If I do the same thing I did with the others, yours comes out even worse. The worst part about it is, you lose a tick of bio at the beginning.

SMN is very hard to get accurate numbers for because of the pets, if someone could let me know how much potency both enkindles are that would seriously help. Also, ifrit is worth about 40 dps more than garuda (195 dps ifrit vs 152 dps garuda) I had them sitting there attacking while I was hitting their abilities in the manner you would in raid for about 3 hours last night. They'll probably do a little bit more in raid but yeah.

Funsies: https://youtu.be/rChZgQODfAE I apologize for the quality, the source video is higher quality but youtube nuked it. :/ This demonstrates the 6 GCD DWT, I hit Deathflare at 2s, and DWT wore off at 1s. I've tried ending with other spells but unless we can knock off 1.6s off 6 gcds I don't think we can. It would take the FCoB levels of SS that BLM had to do this. We could PROBABLY do it during Fey Wind but its still a stretch.

EDIT: With Fey Wind it's possible to finish off DWT with ruin 3 instead of ruin 2, however it's extremely close and I wouldn't suggest doing it unless you know you have good latency or the spell speed to do it.

The benefit of spell speed to GCDs has been reduced to a little over a third because of level 60. At 573 Spell speed I have 2.41 on the GCD, if the numbers were the same proportionately as they were in ARR it would read 2.3 or something. This means somewhere in the upper 700s of spell speed would be required to do Ruin 3 during DWT as an ending spell before Deathflare would be required. Somehow I don't see this being possible until way later.

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Originally Posted by Meleoffs

First, your TD doesn't line up with Trick Attack because you go into DWT later losing the extra 16% dmg it gains. Everything I've read says that dmg buffs are multiplicative rather than static increases, so this makes the 10% from trick attack a lot larger than the 10% it shows.

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I very much disagree that you should throw in factors you have no control over in your spreadsheet (granted it is yours). Saying skills like TA will happen at X time, is not a guarantee as we do not control said players. I have raided with many different ninja in 2.55 and the Trick Attack timing was almost always differing among different players, not to mention, for the instances you do not have a Ninja present. Finding an optimal rotation to start with should be about elements you can control, Pot/ Buff timing. More to the point when you have elements like Garudas Contagion to increase the duration of snapshotted DoTs that could have benefited from other class skills. Throws a very big wrench in proper calculation of optimal openers.

As for Enkindle potencies:

Garuda is 250 one hit, Ifrit is 200 one hit + 20 x 5 DoT ticks

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I very much disagree that you should throw in factors you have no control over in your spreadsheet (granted it is yours). Saying skills like TA will happen at X time, is not a guarantee as we do not control said players. I have raided with many different ninja in 2.55 and the Trick Attack timing was almost always differing among different players, not to mention, for the instances you do not have a Ninja present. Finding an optimal rotation to start with should be about elements you can control, Pot/ Buff timing. More to the point when you have elements like Garudas Contagion to increase the duration of snapshotted DoTs that could have benefited from other class skills. Throws a very big wrench in proper calculation of optimal openers.

As for Enkindle potencies:

Garuda is 250 one hit, Ifrit is 200 one hit + 20 x 5 DoT ticks

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Every ninja I've raided with has had trick attack up before shadow fang. In an organized group having it up on the 4th GCD is really what you want to look for. That's how people found out the optimal opener for BLM was b3 t1. Ignoring buffs to find a rotation thats the highest potency outside of them is silly because it doesn't fully make use of the resources available to you and doesn't maximize your damage. Any ninja that doesn't have trick attack up before their shadowfang and before Aeolian edge was a bad ninja. Losing the 20 potency on shadowfangs base hit from trick alone is huge.

Ifrit is better now ? Garuda is really good with contagion.