The Ninja Superthread

I love the way the ninja plays. Have had zero issues so far. Looking forward to actual challenging content in Alexander.

Neverreap is painfully easy to maintain the rotation on so long as you avoid the twisters. And while I do agree the rotation is "locked in" for long single target fights this is really no different than the dragoon or monk. Armor crush extension allows for a lot more leniency (and dps) in multi target situations and those 1000+ parses are oh so yummy.

At first I hated the perfect dodge change. Perfect dodge was something I adored and could use it to completely avoid knock back in t9 to maintain dps on nael or avoid earth shakers and such. But after experimenting with it more I like it the new way better. It works better as a times defensive buff than a long cool down one time use dodge IMO.

The only changes I want at this point are

Dream within a dream buffed to 150 potency each attack.

And for duality to allow crits.

What's funny if you have an AST that gives you haste card, your GCD goes down to 1.8 second with Huton and no (very low) skillspeed, which gives you a bit more leeway and feels like it's less static (tho I only had a short time to test it). Burns the **** out of your TP though.

Might be that haste will alleviate some of the problems, but that brings up another issue, that generally due to our high haste (lower GCD) we have a lot less time to make decisions on our buff/debuff management. We also run the risk of encountering issues with clipping and it makes any time we cant dps due to movement or boss ability dodging more painful to our dps.

hmmm dragoon and monk use only 2 combo and alternate between them, they are far to be same than us.
they even give help to the monk for the period where it loose him GL, it's not perfect, but on other hand we did get a cycle that getter better and smoother only when other jobs is with us.... serious it's a pain! i don't say that the fight is hard, i say that follow a cycle and do the fight is way too hard, because of decision that need to be changed.

the fact to add a fourth combo to the ninja now, make the futur quite grim, when they will add new skill in the futur, they can't add more weaponskill without make it impossible to play it. but in honestly it's easy to solve it, by switching dancing edge behind shadowfang. only this will make our cycle less cluncky and more smoother. we will still have 3 combo and alternate between them depending of what we need.

by the way i'm feeling like you about duality, that the second hit can't critical, ok, but the main skill must be able to critical. from dream into dream i dunno... maybe make the whole act as one skill, making the skill get the three skill critical together or not.

Please understand that by no means NIN is a WAR's pet.
WARs are our buddies.
We can give them our burst aggro so they can focus on DPS and keep the Storm's Eye going for us so we can DPS more.
It is a mutual deal.

They DPS more as a MT or OT, and we DPS more as a result. And thats good.

Also, please keep in mind that DRG's rotation is very squared and restricted.
What happens if you bring 2 DRGs? The Piercing debuff will be up a 100% of the time, right? But will DRG 1 stop excecuting the debuff because DRG 2 already applied it? Nope, because after the debuff weaponskill comes a DoT finisher which they don't want to drop at an individual level. And even less now with their 4th-BotD-extender weaponskill after Chaos Trust.

If DRG 1 placed the piercing debuff and DRG 2 opted to not use his piercing debuff, DRG 2's DPS will drop in a boss fight. DRGs do not take full adventage of the Piercing debuff duration.

Now, in the case of MNK, Dragon Kick is more flexible, it allows more Bootshines for 1 of the 2 MNKs.
This effectively improves the MNK 1's DPS if MNK 2 keeps DK going. But MNKs can only have this luxury if there happens to be another MNK around... and that will not happen often outside situations like Hunts, or 24-man raids. One very rare case.

In the NINs case, what happens if you bring 2 NINs? The weakest one can keep DE going, and the strongest doesn't need to bother with it. On top of both NIN's DPS going up in a 10% because of the Slashing debuff, NIN 2's DPS will go up by 180 potency per minute by totally suppressing the need of using DE, replacing it by AE. NIN also doesn't need to have another NIN for this scenario to happen, WARs CAN help them with this, and since WAR is a Tank it can naturally happen with more frequency than the MNK scenario. Almost guaranteed that in Hunts or 24-man raids there will be another NIN or WAR keeping this debuff going also.

NIN can take adventage of the full duration of the Slashing debuff.

Also DE doesn't only favor WARs, but PLD and DRK are also favored by it. It just so happens that there is a better synergy with WAR out of the 3 Tanks.

Something I like about the NIN's rotation is that its broken in pieces which you can place however you prefer.
MU > SF > DE > AE is one. But it can also go
MU > DE > SF > AE (my favorite)
DE > SF > MU > AE (to support your party's DPS asap)
AE > DE > SF > MU (almost the absolute worst)
SF > DE > AE (for trash)
and one hell of an adaptability extending on a great deal of situations.

At least, unlike MNK and DRG, the NIN doesn't have useless GCDs: Feint, Haymaker. Or nearly useless ones: One-Ilm Punch.
NIN can make full use of their entire toolkit in almost every battle (Yep, even Sneak Attack and Hide have their uses). And AC does have its place in it.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

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Your example with the dragoons is bad. Both apply the debuff (passively) in their rotation to get to the dot (to maximize) dps. For NIN DE is a direct loss of damage (opportunity cost of not using AE) to keep the debuff up (if there is a warrior). If there was a combo finisher leading out of DE or it refreshed SF or MUT or something, then your example would be the same, but at that point you could delete AE.

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Originally Posted by Korashy

Your example with the dragoons is bad. Both apply the debuff (passively) in their rotation to get to the dot (to maximize) dps.

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You didn't get the point of the example...
If there are 2 DRGs the debuff duration will not be used to the fullest, because both DRGs MUST use the skill that applies the debuff.
They CAN'T skip it. Because they want to use the DoT Weaponskill that comes afterwards, and their new 4th weaponskill as well.

NIN can totally suppress the use of DE to favor the use of AE instead.

From the parses I've done the DE > SF > MU > AE gives me the best results on single target fights for burst openers. SF and MU are the highest potency moves we have and capturing them under TA along with aeolian gives a nice boost to dps (and also almost always pisses off the boss and steal aggro. Lol) In the long run it will even out either way so long as you don't let the timers fall off.

I think armor crush fits nicely in the rotation. It is by far my favorite ninja move at this point because it let's me cast damage mudras endlessly.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

DE > SF > MU > AE gives me the best results

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Yea, DE is pretty aggresive opener, this falls into personal opinion so I won't tell you your option is bad. NIN is cool because of things like this.
Of all the combos MU is the weakest instant damage, which gives the Tank the most time to build aggro without us stealing the spotlight, which I guess has been the case more often than not with unprepared tanks for you, Shadewalker ftw.

After all we are comparing a 60 potency GCD against a 150 potency GCD.
Please take into account that DoT's worth comes with time.
In a 30 seconds parse, an opener started with MU > SF > DE will do more damage in the short term than DE > SF > MU, because the DoTs will have more active time.
Besides, DoTs damage isn't affected by DE's slashing debuff, so there is no point in placing DE before MU and SF for their DoT property.
DoTs then are better on the sooner they are casted on the oponent.

The reason of why I prefer mine is just for my habit of opening the boss battle with 0 seconds Huton wait time. Since it works for me as a filler for 20 seconds for the real thing.

Hey guys, does anyone know an updated and good opener? I want to know if it includes some of the new skills or not.

Entirely up to personal opinion... but again.

With Huton, Suiton, Kassatsu, Blood for Blood and Internal Release active (pot if you want to add it)
Whatever comes first » DE > SE(TA) > SF(Ninjutsu) > MU(DwD) > SE(Mug) > GS(Jug + Duality) > AE[All buffs falls here] or:
Whatever comes first » DE > SE(TA) > SF(Ninjutsu) > SE(DwD) > GS(Jug + Duality) > AE(Mug) > MU[All buffs falls here]

Jug, Duality, Mug and TA/SA animation lock are so short you can actually wind them in just like Mudras.

You actually have time to wind in 5 GCD in between TA.
Of course you want to place your strongest weaponskills there, these are SF, MU and AE.
But these combos are for a total of 6 GCD, for this very reason it is necesary that TA happens right inbetween SE and SF.


An example off the top of my head with Huton timer on 56 seconds:
Suiton while closing in > SE(BFB) > GS(Kassatsu) > DE(IR) > SE(TA)[Suiton ends] > SF(Ninjutsu)[Kassatsu ends] > SE(DwD) > GS(Jug + Dual) > AE(Mug) > MU[TA ends] > SE[IR and BFB ends] ~ {Opener aprox time of 18 seconds}

Another example off the top of my head with Huton timer on 70 seconds:
Huton while closing in > MU » DE » SF » AE(BFB) > SE(Suiton) > GS(IR) > DE(Kassatsu) > SE(TA)[Suiton ends] > SF(Ninjutsu)[Kassatsu ends] > MU(DwD) > SE(Mug) > GS(Jug + Dual) > AE[TA ends] > SE[BFB + IR ends] ~ {Opener aprox time of 36 seconds}

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Entirely up to personal opinion... but again.

With Huton, Suiton, Kassatsu, Blood for Blood and Internal Release active (pot if you want to add it)
Whatever comes first > DE > SE(TA) > SF(Ninjutsu) > MU(DwD) > SE(Mug) > GS(Jug + Duality) > AE[All buffs falls here] or:
Whatever comes first > DE > SE(TA) > SF(Ninjutsu) > SE(DwD) > GS(Jug + Duality) > AE(Mug) > MU[All buffs falls here]

Jug, Duality, Mug and TA/SA animation lock are so short you can actually wind them in just like Mudras.

You actually have time to wind in 5 GCD in between TA.
Of course you want to place your strongest weaponskills there, these are SF, MU and AE.
But these combos are for a total of 6 GCD, for this very reason it is necesary that TA happens right inbetween SE and SF.

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Thank you @Arkenne i really appreciate it.

PPS is king.

As far as the potency of the opener, the dot tics arent affected DE, this is correct, but they are affected by TA, B4B, IR , Dex pot, and the initial strikes of SF and MUT are affected by DE. The total PPS from doing DE first is greater overall than by doing the dots first as you are getting more PPS from these two moves if you capture them with all the buffs vs not.

The math has been done on this more than a few times but overall the difference isnt substantial so I agree that it becomes preference at some point. I just prefer to maximize dps in any situation I can because thats just how I play.

B4B > SE (IR) > GS (XPot) > DE (Suiton) > SE (TA) > SF (Kass) > MUT (Raiton) > SE (DWID) > GS (Duality) > AE (Mug) > SE etc...

This is the highest PPS/parsing opener Ive found that doesnt push two OGCDs into a single GCD. Unfortunately due to lag and pings Im not really able to double up OGCD as it sits right now without cutting Into my next GCD.

Then we are more or less on the same plane!
Goodie to know. Too bad you can't wind Jugulate in there :/
But if your ping is too bad do you think its worth for you to use Raiton instead of Shuriken while within 3 yalms range?
I live in the 110~130 ping realm and Raiton in 3 yalms is a b!tch for my dps... have parsed myself with Shuriken alone and the difference is astonishing...

Mug + Jug is a bit tight but Jug + Dual is more viable for some reason. Been enjoying this while solo to dual my oponent and it works wonders.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

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That's the very definition of passively getting it. If ninja would get the DE debuff on GS instead of it being an extra skill THEN it would be the same thing. Constantly (passively) applied during your rotation because you need to use that skill to access higher tier combos.

The fact that if you have 2 NIN only one has to do DE is irrelevant. The class should be able to do well on it's own, with the same rotation without dependence on composition.

Pierce Debuff also helps BRD and MECH, but I guarantee you if either class could do it themselves they would alter their rotation around it, and revert back to not doing it if there is a DRG (who passively applies) it, which is the boat NIN is in now.

If my composition doesn't include a Warrior or another NIN (who I can make DE slave), I'm being punished.

we can argue that warrior will not increase our dps, but it's a fact, any DE we don't place can be used for AE.... means a gain of 60 potency.
let's be honest one second, we are the only jobs that use 4 different combo:
- one for AE
- one for DE
- one for SF
- one for AC

with the mudra, the positional, the duration that are a mess and the mechanic of the fight it can be quite a chores to exploit perfectly the ninja, say which cycle we must use here and use it in fight are quite different.

i will say it one more time, i feel that DE must be placed behind SF that will make everything more smoother.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

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True. That's why i've been using B4B, IR, Dex pot and then start the initial strikes.

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Originally Posted by Korashy

Missing the point a 2rd time

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For some reason there is also a daily limit to the number of posts one can make in these forums... so I would rather not circle around this too much...

Tell me then, what gain is there on having 2 DRGs in a dungeon in relation to the passibly applied Piercing debuff?
Is there any difference at all in either of the 2 DRG's rotations? Does it change in the minimal at all? Does DRG 1 stop using the Piercing debuff in favor of a stronger skill because DRG 2 is using and mantaining it?

What would happen in the scenario of having a WAR and a NIN together and SG were to have the DE effect? Will WAR ever bother applying Storm's Eye? Will there be any difference in DPS for the NIN if there was another NIN around and GS gave the DE effect? Will the DE effect have any point in having a timer even?

You do realize that if GS had the DE effect, DE would have something we would desire to use also, and hence restrict the use of AE and AC even more as a result than it is now, right? Not gonna say you are being serious with the GS having the DE effect, but if it were to be like that, it would be the same that happens for DRGs.

There would be nothing to gain from having 2 NINs and it would hurt the relationship with WAR.

As it is right now, if DE/StE is being sustained by someone else, you can input more AEs until DE/StE timer is dropped for any reason. Whereas DRG can't skip the use of their Piercing debuff skill even if they wanted to cuz that results in a DPS loss. So they have to use it for the sake of using it if there is more than one DRG attacking the same target. They don't have an option. Thats what I meant by "squared and restricted". Of course Im talking of boss battle scenarios.

About the lack of a WAR or 2nd NIN on your static: You aren't being punished for not having them. If you were to have one you would be rewarded.
What I can tell is that you are looking at a glass with water and think of it as half empty. Try to look at it as half full instead.

Sorry if I sounded a bit rude, tho :/

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Tell me then, what gain is there on having 2 DRGs in a dungeon in relation to the passibly applied Piercing debuff?

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That's the whole point, they each use it because it let's them access something else that is high damage (hence why both use it), while a NIN will ideally never use DE, unless there is no Warrior. The Warrior uses Storms Eye because it's his second highest damage skill.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

There would be nothing to gain from having 2 NINs and it would hurt the relationship with WAR.

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Yes. Because we can actually do the debuff ourselves. BRD likes DRG because DRG gives BRD more dmg (something that doesn't change the way they either class plays, it just passively exists for them). NIN likes WAR because it gives NIN more dmg, by having a huge impact on my rotation. I dislike that.

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Originally Posted by Korashy

The reasons

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... Nevermind...

I can only agree with Allyrion that DE might be hogging the priority in the rotation a bit much in contrast to AE and AC.
Something to extend the DE duration could help alleviate this and let the 123 lovers 123 all day =-= (yes, being a bit salty, sorry).

Examples that comes to mind:
- Increasing DE duration to 30 seconds.
- Making AE fully refresh DE duration with -3 seconds. (20, 17, 14 and so on)
- Making SE and GS extend DE effect for +1 second.

new parse video 4mins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVc1DFdo340

i feel like the most unnoticed dps increase is that your DE gets the slashing bonus of the next DE so you wanna try to get it back on right as its about to fall off, and you have to look at where you're at and your latency if you can afford a raiton or a fuma in order to make that happen.

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Originally Posted by softestPAWSintheEAST

new parse video 4mins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVc1DFdo340

i feel like the most unnoticed dps increase is that your DE gets the slashing bonus of the next DE so you wanna try to get it back on right as its about to fall off, and you have to look at where you're at and your latency if you can afford a raiton or a fuma in order to make that happen.

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This is probably gonna sound weird since I main nin but what was the rotation I know most of the abilities used but it was going to fast I have a hard time following and putting it in categorically?

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Originally Posted by SkyRobo1

This is probably gonna sound weird since I main nin but what was the rotation I know most of the abilities used but it was going to fast I have a hard time following and putting it in categorically?

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b4b - se - ir - gs - xpot - de - suiton - se - TA - kassatsu - sf - raiton - mutilate - dwd - se - mug + jug - gs - duality - ae

put it in the description now =)!

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Originally Posted by SkyRobo1

This is probably gonna sound weird since I main nin but what was the rotation I know most of the abilities used but it was going to fast I have a hard time following and putting it in categorically?

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ye it's called decent ping, we don't know what it means in Europe :)

there's no real point in casting suiton anywhere other than right as the pull happens anymore if you're going to trick attack within the 10s window imo. the 8s-10s of your ninjutsu cd you lose is not a big deal anymore because of armor crush; having to do a 3 step in the middle of your opener is a big deal in comparison

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

there's no real point in casting suiton anywhere other than right as the pull happens anymore if you're going to trick attack within the 10s window imo. the 8s-10s of your ninjutsu cd you lose is not a big deal anymore because of armor crush; having to do a 3 step in the middle of your opener is a big deal in comparison

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very good point. will have to adjust my opener. thanks for that!

dancing edge probably doesn't go with SF because the nin skills at 50 would have been identical to drg minus impulse drive. now with armor crush and... whatever the hell mess drgs have gotten themselves into it wouldn't be so obvious.

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Originally Posted by jars

dancing edge probably doesn't go with SF because the nin skills at 50 would have been identical to drg minus impulse drive. now with armor crush and... whatever the hell mess drgs have gotten themselves into it wouldn't be so obvious.

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i know sadly we need to reduce the number of possible combo, for make the whole more smooth. we can't swicth the effect of dancing edge to another skill, because it will leave DE without effect and a useless skill
we can't place AC behind SF or the fact to choice for use it will become pointless since we will simply do it every 18 second.

it was the only option i did found for make it all more stable and more important, will open more room for add new stuff later. because if you look at it, we already reach the point of saturation with this weaponskill combo. they have the room for add one more skill behind SF and nothing much.

another point important, it will make the ninja less dependant of the warrior since it will become easier to maintain our debuff. if that make us pre heavensward more like a dragoon, it's a small price.
another point, dragoon effect generally last far longer than our:
- Disembowel = 30 second, dancing edge = 20 second
- chaos thrust = 30 second, shadowfangs = 18 second
- Phlebotomize = 24 second, Mutilate = 30 second (the only one we have of longer)

even if our combo pre heavensward will be close of the dragoon, since our duration are shorter we will need to applicate them more often. and all of this while still using ninjutsu that is every 20 second.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

another point important, it will make the ninja less dependant of the warrior since it will become easier to maintain our debuff. if that make us pre heavensward more like a dragoon, it's a small price.
another point, dragoon effect generally last far longer than our:
- Disembowel = 30 second, dancing edge = 20 second
- chaos thrust = 30 second, shadowfangs = 18 second
- Phlebotomize = 24 second, Mutilate = 30 second (the only one we have of longer)

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The only reason why dancing edge is lower is because it also gives the healing debuff. If it wasn't for that it'd probably be longer.

I like to use this rotation as well B4B > SE (IR) > GS (XPot) > DE (Suiton) > SE (TA) > SF (Kass) > MUT (Raiton) > SE (DWID) > GS (Duality) > AE (Mug) > SE
I have one question though, how is everyone able to get around how unreliable mudras are when it comes to them registering as being activated. In the rotations posted, things like suiton and raiton are bracketed as if they take the same time as an ogcd, but getting a 3 mudra ninjutsu off can take between 1-3 seconds depending on what mood the server is in, despite me keeping a steady 70ping. Is there anything I can do externally to help with the mudra lag?

@Lurel

If you're on pc, you can use a vpn like wtfast or battleping. If you're on console, then yeah, not much you can do unfortunately...

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

@Lurel

If you're on pc, you can use a vpn like wtfast or battleping. If you're on console, then yeah, not much you can do unfortunately...

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Yeah I'm on PC, I'll check them out. I've never had to use any 3rd party programs for any MMO, especially maintaining 70ms, it's just something with those mudras....
Thanks

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Originally Posted by VitalSuit

The only reason why dancing edge is lower is because it also gives the healing debuff. If it wasn't for that it'd probably be longer.

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personally, the healing debuff is something i really don't care! it's more for the pvp than pve. all i see for now that it make our whole cycle a pain to do it correctly, more important it make us dependant of another jobs for be able to do our top dps.

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Originally Posted by Lurel

Yeah I'm on PC, I'll check them out. I've never had to use any 3rd party programs for any MMO, especially maintaining 70ms, it's just something with those mudras....
Thanks

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I was able to maintain a stable 500-550 dps on final coil before the expansion came out (ilvl125) with 140 ping. But that could be way better with 70 ping :c

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CI_C38TUcAA7uAv.png:large

Ravana Ex
From a japanese friend.

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Originally Posted by Lurel

Yeah I'm on PC, I'll check them out. I've never had to use any 3rd party programs for any MMO, especially maintaining 70ms, it's just something with those mudras....
Thanks

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WTFast is worth it. For me, my ping is fine (sub-100), but I get random packet loss spikes due to an idiotic router bouncing the connection from New York (state) to London back to Quebec, and the London node is just....horrible, to say the least. But when you get a proper half-second cooldown on the Mudras, it is pure nirvana. I really hope the devs decouple the mudras from needing the server to talkback before advancing. It's a little bit too high on the "We're paranoid of our playerbase," scale so long as the devs actually check to see that the resulting combo is valid.

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Originally Posted by Elizabeth

Ravana Ex
From a japanese friend.

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Fun to see some damage numbers.


Anyways, if Dancing Edge purely has a 20s duration because of PVP, then the devs can, and have, adjusted debuff timers to fit the game mode. We already see it on abilities such as stuns, roots, etc. As it stands, however, unless you have a warrior or second ninja, the NIN rotation is awful and not that interesting. It takes too long to recover from boss mechanics that cause you to lose DPS uptime if you want to maximize DPS due to trying to rebuild the Huton buffer, and it really just isn't as fun as it could be because of it.

Seriously, Dancing Edge is a real problem right now in the rotation, and I am going to iterate this until the problem is recognized and, ideally, resolved, as I really hate having to do a horribly complex rotation when a WAR isn't present, and a horribly simple rotation when a WAR is. I just want one smooth, consistent rotation that doesn't change from someone elses class being present that is a quasi priority system like the class used to have pre-HW, just expanded because the quasi priority system wasn't great pre-HW either (Armor Crush really is a good ability design wise for the class). I don't think the NIN needs more, or less, DPS (I don't know where it truthfully falls in the grand scheme, so I feel whatever change is made keeps the NIN more or less the same), but my primary combo being a stupid slashing resistance debuff is simply absurd.

The best change is probably to simply make DE part of a 3 step combo going from Spinning Edge to Dancing Edge to Shadow Fang, as then it's in the same boat as the Dragoon's Disembowel into Chaos Thrust, the timings are already great on the 2 abilities anyways (they'd guarantee solid uptime from such a change, short of maybe needing +2 seconds on each ability or allowing them to barely fall off), and it frees up the primary rotation to be what made the NIN so fun pre-HW, in that the rotation was about keeping up what needed to be kept up when it did, and otherwise falling back to a relatively simple rotation that is made more complicated due to Armor Crush. (Seriously, I love Armor Crush, I just hate Dancing Edge now).

It will smooth out the classes rotation, make it consistent regardless of allied classes with the exception of short-term steroids like Selene's attack speed boost (which hits everyone), and make it flow a hell of a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

The best change is probably to simply make DE part of a 3 step combo going from Spinning Edge to Dancing Edge to Shadow Fang, as then it's in the same boat as the Dragoon's Disembowel into Chaos Thrust, the timings are already great on the 2 abilities anyways...

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That would be AWESOME.

yeah, that the only way out soo far.... but the question do they will do it?

same two other concern:
- the first is smoke bomb utility versu shadowalker, why reduce the hate of a target (when most of the jobs around outside monk have access to that sort of skill too) when you can simply increase the enmity of the tank?
- the second is more a QoL change needed, why now the poison are unequiped when we enter in ilevel synch dungeon and fate, i means before that was not the case, but now it's trully a pain. before it was working like Defiance and the oath.

... God they are multiplying...

Well, I parsed myself... in excel... cuz of course I have a lot of things to do at work right now!
My result in a calculated rotation under the next conditions:

- Based on dummy fight.
- 180 seconds long.
- 2 seconds GCD, 90 actions.
- No oGCD were considered.
- Rotation started at 0 seconds wait time of Huton application.
- Rotation was started as my favorite: MU » DE » SF » AE only for personal preference.

+ Dancing Edge had 11 inputs: Seconds 8, 24, 42, 58, 76, 94, 110, 128, 144, 162 & 180
+ Aeolian Edge had 5 inputs: Seconds 18, 36, 86, 104 & 156
+ Armor Crush had 5 inputs: Seconds 52, 70, 122, 138 & 172

The rotation cycled as:
DE(8) » AE(18) » DE(24) » AE(36) »
DE(42) » AC(52) » DE(58) » AC(70) »
DE(76) » AE(86) » DE(94) » AE(104) »
DE(110) » AC(122) » DE(128) » AC(138) »
DE(144) » AE(156) » DE(162) » AC(172) » DE(180)
~ 40 seconds of Huton remaining at the end.

Potency lost by replacing AE for AC: 200 + 20 from DE
Potency gained by replacing Huton reappliance for Shuriken: 720 + 72 from DE
Potency gained by replacing Huton reappliance for Raiton: 1080

And just for the hell of it, how would the NIN rotation in 180 seconds look if someone else is sustaining the slashing debuff?
Warning: boring stuff ahead, oh, and the whole post over all... whops?

AE » AE » AE » AE » AE » AC » AE » AC »
AE » AE » AE » AE » AE » AC » AE » AC »
AE » AE » AE » AC » AE

Potency gained by replacing DE for AE when DE is being sustained by a 3rd party: 660 + 66 from DE

Something I have to agree with is that its true that DE feels overused while solo playing. Since its currently our strongest finisher when hitting an enemy that is aiming at us, using it again when the monster already had the debuff going feels like a waste :/

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Originally Posted by softestPAWSintheEAST

b4b - se - ir - gs - xpot - de - suiton - se - TA - kassatsu - sf - raiton - mutilate - dwd - se - mug + jug - gs - duality - ae

put it in the description now =)!

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Thank you :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Potency gained by replacing DE for AE when DE is being sustained by a 3rd party: 660 + 66 from DE

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no one ask for replace DE, but for make it more smooth to use it.... other point Dummy fight is not real fight! use dummy fight as demonstration lead to nothing.
finally, by making this change they open more option for later add of skill.... because soo far after the add of AC, the possibility to add new weaponskill is really limited.

the point it's to improve the ninja, not by making it stronger, but making him weaponskill combo more smooth and less dependant of other.
the difference of damage by the fact that some else put the same effect than DE in our place is not negligable.... 660+66 it's quite important, find me another jobs that will get this much dps for having one of him skill used by other?
none!
- dragoon will place them debuff since it's part of them combo!
- monk will still do it for have a smoother experience between flank and rear combo.


one more time, by making DE part of the combo with SF we don't loose dps nor really gain a ton of it, we will get a smoother combo system, more important we will not get more dps from warrior presence since DE will always be included into our cycle!