M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Losing the speed running meta would not be a huge issue to tanks, but suddenly making it so tanks do the amount of damage of healers currently and healers do the amount of damage of tanks would impact many players enjoyment. You pretty much will be nerfing tanks because healers were getting sidelined in a speed running meta and the change itself does nothing to solve the issue that healers have.

That change would ripple throughout all forms of content. I agree healers need some love have never said otherwise. Unless you feel they should up the amount of damage healers do to match what they do with tanks but that would require complete readjustment to all forms of content to account for the higher amount of overall damage.



Nerfing the overall damage of tanks just because healers got sidelined in a speed running meta is messed up. For tanks it would mean across the board they do overall less damage and the nerf itself does not solve the core issue with healers. Yeah. I am sure that would go over well.

I mean come on we all must see how that is a messed up request / nerf. Maybe it would not bother tanks, maybe ask the tank forum for their feedback.

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I am not calling for a damage nerf personally. But something about them certainly needs to be adjusted so that they do not replace healers in any content outside being a slight emergency support for a limit period of time and are certainly not immortal in casual content.

And inb4 "casual content doesn't matter". It absolutely does. It's time for the dev team to nerf and yes, it will ripple across all difficulty levels. As it clearly needs to do.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I mean come on we all must see how that is a messed up request / nerf. Maybe it would not bother tanks, maybe ask the tank forum for their feedback.

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Honestly, to achieve healthy balance, the tanks do require a nerf in some aspect.

We can see the trinity as 3 different aspects: Damage, Healing and Mitigation. Healers are proficient in both healing and mitigation, therefore they deal less damage, this is fine and understandable. DPS specialise in dealing damage, therefore they have limited healing and mitigation, this is also understandable. But now we come to tanks, they're proficient in mitigation and they have some healing and damage, therefore if they want to dip further into healing, they have to either give up some damage or mitigation.

That's just the baseline for healthy balance in a trinity game.

Right now, tanks are so overpowered that it’s like dropping the USA’s best main battle tank into World War 1, almost nothing will hurt or stop it.

Tanks are supposed to be agro magnet meat shields that position monsters so everybody else can do their job and not be gods of everything.

I seriously doubt they'll make any neft to tanks. I suspect the reason they make tank so OP is to incite more people to play it. The high DPS make it attractive to the DPS crowd, and I think FF14's tanking is the easiest tank in all the MMO I had played. And despite all that it's still the most demanding role. We can all laugh at the healer strike as fake news because even if it's true, there is enough healers that it barely registered any effect. But I bet a real tank strike would have a very noticeable effect. Also it's usually the non-tank players that get pissy about tank, I rarely see a tank complain about their role in relative to other role. When the tanks complain, it's usually just an argument among themselves.

So yeah, if you want a productive discussion that may have a chance leading to actual solution, just best treat tank as a protected role. Whatever you want to happen ain't gonna happen if it involve violating the tank protective bubble.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

Right now, tanks are so overpowered that it’s like dropping the USA’s best main battle tank into World War 1, almost nothing will hurt or stop it.

Tanks are supposed to be agro magnet meat shields that position monsters so everybody else can do their job and not be gods of everything.

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This is the issue it seems healers want tanks to be boring meat shields that do practically nothing else, old aggro management isn't coming back nor is stances "boss positioning" hasn't really had many importance in a long time either not to mention that fights always have a off tank, I see tanks as Supports, In ff14 they should be the middle ground between a DPS and healers, frankly it's fun to have tools that can help party members on a tank and I don't want that took away, I like being a paladin and being able to "protect" people which isn't just "lol i have aggro".

I really am tired of comments that miss what I and many others like about tanks, seems to think ruining the tank role into making it more boring will all of a sudden make healers more fun, because it won't even removing all non-healer healing will barely change the enjoyability of healers.

Honestly, in my opinion, reducing tanks back to meatshields that just gather mobs and eat autoattacks isn't a real solution either. I often play tanks and I enjoy supporting my party.

However, current tanks do factually encroach upon the healer role. Back in SB, I had to heal the tank after a tankbuster. I need the tank to take the tankbuster and the tank needs me to heal them up after, that is synergy between roles, that is good design. In current content, the tanks can kitchen sink the tankbuster and the WAR can heal them both back up, I don't have anything to do, the thing I had to do before was taken away, that is bad design.

What I'd like to see is tanks having less sustain but more active utility. Stuff like damage redirects, targeted barriers, on-field buffs, and maybe even limited healing. Things that give tanks supportive agency while not encroaching on what the healer is in the party for.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

This is the issue it seems healers want tanks to be boring meat shields that do practically nothing else, old aggro management isn't coming back nor is stances "boss positioning" hasn't really had many importance in a long time either not to mention that fights always have a off tank, I see tanks as Supports, In ff14 they should be the middle ground between a DPS and healers, frankly it's fun to have tools that can help party members on a tank and I don't want that took away, I like being a paladin and being able to "protect" people which isn't just "lol i have aggro".

I really am tired of comments that miss what I and many others like about tanks, seems to think ruining the tank role into making it more boring will all of a sudden make healers more fun, because it won't even removing all non-healer healing will barely change the enjoyability of healers.

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This has been my point of contention. I get healers are not in a great spot enjoyment wise to some but actively voicing to take away tools or what tank players find enjoyable is not going to solve anything, and even if it did it would fix one problem for another. If they brought back some of the old things like as you said old aggro management, stances, differing boss mechanics that real more complex boss control and movement something then maybe the trade off for DPS might be worth, but doubt this will happen because overall I do not think the FFXIV tanking community wants such changes. They like the overall state tanks are in now.

I get players like Super are upset but what I think they fail to understand is the damage is a part that does appeal to many tank players, if they reduce that aspect then yes I do not it is a stretch to say many tank players would not playing the role. Even if we brought back older systems like aggro management I am sure that would turn many players off from tanking also. The solution cannot be remove aspects that make current tank players happy, it has to be something else or all we would be doing is switching places with healers.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because the healers want things removed from the tanks that directly encroach on the healer role. The devs ripped out agro management from tanks and made them immortal melee DPS with training wheels. Losing what makes tanks tanks is not an excuse to then demand to basically take the healer role away from the healers

I want excessive healing removed from the tanks BECAUSE I want the tanks to be given utility that DOESNT encroach on the healer role. Cover is a fantastic skill, shareable TBN is another fantastic skill, intervention and HOS before the healing upgrades are great skills. The tanks raidwide utility (minus the excessive healing on SIO) are good skills. I’m also a fan of adding other utility such as a sort of cover equivalent that pulls debuffs off other players. Imagine if a DPS got a spicy DOT and you could pull it off them and tank it with your better HP. Covalence like skills where you can pass healing through you and amplify it is another avenue I’d like to explore

I don’t want the tanks healing to be removed so they can suffer, I want it to be replaced with tank specific utility that doesn’t encroach on the healer role. I truly don’t understand how people see the tank being 80% of the healer role and see the healer role rotting in the corner and go “okay guys we can’t touch the tanks while trying to fix this problem”, if you tank fantasy is huge AOE healing and healing other party members then are you really a tank or are you just lamenting the healer role is garbage by playing a role that’s more fun to heal on than the healers.

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Yes, but given SE track record when they remove something how often do they replace it with some equal in return? I am sure you can see why people may be turned off when players make suggestions for something to be removed when it comes to FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Wow... it's almost like healers use to have an engaging damage rotation, and they took it away so not as many people enjoy the role lol.

If tanks want to have fun dealing damage they should play dps.

I don't really care that tanks have healing, it's basically the only utility the game can give since they've watered down so many aspects of job design. But they have so much they're invincible even up to extreme content. Most people here are asking that "Hey, maybe the tanks shouldn't be invincible" and your response is asking why you want to take away their fun...

Let tanks be Gods at mitigation, let them stop 90% of all the damage for all I care, but let the hp they do lose be the healers' job.

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Good point, why was that engaging DPS rotations removed? Sure be upset but we cannot deny a large reason why many tank players do play them is because SE turned them into easier DPS, and that added power fantasy. Everything healers want is fair, but if we are being honest given SE's track record do you REALLY see them taking those aspects away from tanks?

Daily cap

Because the healers want things removed from the tanks that directly encroach on the healer role. The devs ripped out agro management from tanks and made them immortal melee DPS with training wheels. Losing what makes tanks tanks is not an excuse to then demand to basically take the healer role away from the healers

I want excessive healing removed from the tanks BECAUSE I want the tanks to be given utility that DOESNT encroach on the healer role. Cover is a fantastic skill, shareable TBN is another fantastic skill, intervention and HOS before the healing upgrades are great skills. The tanks raidwide utility (minus the excessive healing on SIO) are good skills. I’m also a fan of adding other utility such as a sort of cover equivalent that pulls debuffs off other players. Imagine if a DPS got a spicy DOT and you could pull it off them and tank it with your better HP. Covalence like skills where you can pass healing through you and amplify it is another avenue I’d like to explore

I don’t want the tanks healing to be removed so they can suffer, I want it to be replaced with tank specific utility that doesn’t encroach on the healer role. I truly don’t understand how people see the tank being 80% of the healer role and see the healer role rotting in the corner and go “okay guys we can’t touch the tanks while trying to fix this problem”, if you tank fantasy is huge AOE healing and healing other party members then are you really a tank or are you just lamenting the healer role is garbage by playing a role that’s more fun to heal on than the healers.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I get players like Super are upset but what I think they fail to understand is the damage is a part that does appeal to many tank players, if they reduce that aspect then yes I do not it is a stretch to say many tank players would not playing the role.

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Wow... it's almost like healers use to have an engaging damage rotation, and they took it away so not as many people enjoy the role lol.

If tanks want to have fun dealing damage they should play dps.

I don't really care that tanks have healing, it's basically the only utility the game can give since they've watered down so many aspects of job design. But they have so much they're invincible even up to extreme content. Most people here are asking that "Hey, maybe the tanks shouldn't be invincible" and your response is asking why you want to take away their fun...

Let tanks be Gods at mitigation, let them stop 90% of all the damage for all I care, but let the hp they do lose be the healers' job.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I don’t want the tanks healing to be removed so they can suffer, I want it to be replaced with tank specific utility that doesn’t encroach on the healer role. I truly don’t understand how people see the tank being 80% of the healer role and see the healer role rotting in the corner and go “okay guys we can’t touch the tanks while trying to fix this problem”, if you tank fantasy is huge AOE healing and healing other party members then are you really a tank or are you just lamenting the healer role is garbage by playing a role that’s more fun to heal on than the healers.

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Maybe I want to play the holy knight class who uses white magic who has some healing utility? I really don't wanna play some robe "classic" healer, I'd like to play a tank with some healing support options which has been done in games before.

This argument that ANY healing whatsoever encroaches on healers makes zero sense, Abilities such as Holy sheltron's regen is fine, it's a single target regen gunbreaker's had aurora from the start no one's complained about that warrior had Equilibrium, which i think hasn't been a issue.

The Actual issue is the Combined Mitigation and sustain is too high, not that a Job like paladin can give out a regen tied to their mitigation cooldown, or even one single aoe heal. If tanks were taking more damage in the first place and had half as much sustain healers would certainly need to heal but you could also keep some level of sustain & healing on tanks.

But it does seem you're very committed to taking away healing from tanks for the because of trying to appeal to a very base line version of the trinity system.