That's fair criticism. I would support a thread devoted to 'expanding the development team to incorporate a wider array of gameplay specialists'. Very valuable feedback that. That feedback doesn't counter the point of 'forcing Yoshida to play healers won't help anything' though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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05-27-2022, 04:18 AMElesh
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05-27-2022, 04:25 AMKolsykol
I'd love to have a designer for at least each base role ( so Tank, Healer and DPS ).
I don't even think it'd have to be full time, but I am sure they can find people at the office to jump in and fill in when needed.
I'd definitely prefer more tho, a Melee designer, Physical Ranged etc. -
05-27-2022, 04:55 AMSebazyI made a thread covering this with additional depth, clarification and my own thoughts on the reasoning behind it in the healer section of the boards back in 2019.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elesh
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ealer-designer.
It's aged disappointingly well (And I think it might be the second most upvoted topic overall in the healer section to date?) despite my hopes that SE would have seen the trends Shadowbringer's cemented not going down especially well and taken that as a cue to make sure they were better equipped to go big on Endwalker. Instead they doubled down on the same path which has resulted in frequent waves of negativity towards an unhealthy percentage of the changes and decisions they've made with job design since. -
05-27-2022, 08:35 AMLiam_HarperThen why is there no dedicated healer designer? Someone on the "team" (tiny handful of staff) is trying to cover two roles and they expect them to do that. The dev team are basically doing what you're saying they shouldn't. Their team exists and doesn't even follow the reason a team should exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elesh
We don't really want Yoshida to go play healer, we just want him to realize a multi-billion-dollar company making one of the worlds most successful MMO's yet refusing to hire a single qualified staff member to cover one of their 3 combat roles ...is completely bonkers and significantly impacting the quality of the game in that area. -
06-03-2022, 03:29 PMHyperiusUltima
A small start to June, and things apparently have taken a turn since the last time I scoured the forums. This here is your monthly reminder that Healers play like crap. Get Yoshida to play one so he can understand our problems. I know it sounds like I'm yelling into the void at this point, but a push is needed given the Healer community is dissatisfied with Healers as they are - they are boring if you learn how to play them well.
As a friendly reminder to people who say "Go play DPS" or "Go play Tank", try a healer yourself and tell us how you feel pressing 1 button when there is abso-frickin-lutely buttocks to do when your WAR is holding down the fort all by himself with Bloodwhetting and his sustain.
Anyway, to respond to the post above, we do need a dedicated healer designer who knows how healing works. We also need Naoki Yoshida to not brush off experienced healers when doing a controlled run of the dungeons they create - instead of replacing them with a novice to simulate the "new player experience" going into that when it's not even a good control. Regardless, I think having Yoshida play a healer is important because he's got his head stuck in DPS too much for his job. And sure, I'll even go with the trope that BLM is catered to by Naoki Yoshida himself if we want to go the extra mile. We just want proper representation of our feedback instead of "Press 1 to Delete" every 28s of our gameplay. -
06-03-2022, 03:37 PMSyrri
Simple solution; gut healers like they have been in PVP and give every job its own self sustain, then redesign healers so they are actually green dps.
Everyone wins. -
06-27-2022, 04:04 PMRenathras
I cannot fathom how it could be "more engaging" without being "harder". There's no way to make it "more engaging" that WOULDN'T make it harder. While we can quibble about HOW MUCH harder, adding a second DoT to manage makes it harder (to contribute optimal DPS). Adding a second casting combo attack of some kind makes it harder. Making heals weaker so that GCD heals must be used more often makes it harder. There is no way to "make it more engaging" that doesn't make it "harder" at the same time. So let's start by setting that issue to bed. Any meaningful discussion must start with us agreeing on basic facts. And making a "more engaging" DPS kit, by definition, makes a harder DPS kit. WAR's kit is "more engaging" than WHM's, and is HARDER. You can argue it's negligibly harder, but it's definitely more involved to contribute optimal DPS.
That said, this is why my personal ideal is to make one healer from each type (pure and barrier) harder while leaving the other alone. This way, healers that want a "more engaging" healer can play those ones. They will still do the same overall rdps, so you get no benefit at all other than "not being bored". You would pick them entirely because you want to be pushed harder, and the ones left alone would be for people that enjoy healing now. Everyone could clear the content and people that don't want a "more engaging" rotation could continue playing as they do now and doing just as much damage as those of you that want to be more "engaged". For example, suppose we leave WHM and SGE as they are now and give AST a 1-2-3 rotation and SCH 3-5 DoTs and Fester/Bane. You will do no more damage - let me make sure I'm making that absolutely clear - and they will be more involved in order for you to even manage to pull the same damage as a WHM spamming Glare. But that IS what you want, right?
And it would also help your case if you didn't conflate two things: Are you upset about healers being "boring" or Hrothgar hair styles? Pick a lane.
That said: It's always a good idea for players to try out different things. I have no idea Yoshi P's character name, so I don't know if he's leveled other Jobs or not, but given the type of person and gamer he seems to be, it's very likely he does play healer sometimes as well and isn't just 100% BLM all the time. But we'd have to verify that somehow.
EDIT:
My god, you can't believe this, can you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Syrri
Many people love healing as it is right now. They're part of EVERYONE, and they would most definitely not win. I hate healers in PvP other than WHM, and barely that, because I have no heals I can actually use. The CD on Cure is painful for a person that main heals. There are no healers in PvP and I hate it. The only Job I can even somewhat stand to play is WHM because it has some more healing than the others, but barely, and it requires you blitzing into melee (and often certain death in Frontlines) just to use Cure 3. Your functional Medica 2 comes from using LB. It's totally stupid. It's a garbage system. The PvP rework overall is okay, but what they did to healers was brutal. There's barely any HEALING in PvP now, and that sucks arse.
They did great on tanking and damage dealers in PvP - because the Devs clearly love Tanks and DPS but hate Healers - but they did Healers super dirty in PvP. Every single healer has to be a melee warrior and none of them have distance openers, and SCH doesn't even have a gap CLOSER to get into melee in the first place. I can't see why anyone thinks healing in PvP now is enjoyable. It's passable on WHM but total garbage otherwise. If that came to PvE, I'd either quit healing or quit the game outright.
You people that want and love that aren't healers. You're damage dealers in healers' clothing.
I not only TRY healer, I main healer. I play all healers other than AST (because I genuinely just dislike the Card mechanic and it's too busy/"engaging" overall), and love how WHM and SGE work right now. SCH is honestly too much. I think it needs about 3 less buttons overall, drop Energy Drain so its healing isn't fighting damage, and delete Dissipation, the single most terrible/bad ability in the entire history of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
You want to play DPS. That's the problem. Many people do not. We want to play Healers, and don't want you turning our Healers into DPS. You have 11 DPS Jobs in this game to play. 15 if you add Tanks. And two of the Healers, SCH and AST, are already very busy and involved. You have PLENTY of options without ruining Healers for the rest of us.
If you were talking about 1 or 2 of the Healers, as I said above, and doing identical DPS just putting in all that extra effort you WANT to put in, that'd be fine. But that's not what you want. You want to ruin Healers for people that love them right now. And that's unacceptable.
It's funny you mentioned this, did a ZodEx with no Job stones. It actually is possible (though somewhat close), and it was interesting having to lean so heavily on GCD heals again instead of having oGCDs coming out the wazoo that do all the healing for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martynek
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06-27-2022, 04:56 PMAvoidy
I agree, mainly in the sense that it feels good to think about Yoshi-san playing as a Hrothgar white mage.
But from a practical standpoint, I'm left wondering what he, or anyone, would even change about healers without also making changes to the rest of the game. Even if they listen to player feedback, it seems like everyone's got their own idea of what a healer should be responsible for doing. Some healers I know love it when fights go off the rails because it lets them do more. Others hate it when that happens because it interrupts their ability to spam Glare. Personally, I'd love it if healers were resource management and provided a mana battery for the group (as just one example) but then you have loads of jobs that don't even use mana, so it's just like... okay. Or you have stuff like SCH's chain strategem, which -- great! More chance for your group to crit! But now Square's on this push to make more and more jobs just auto crit.
Basically I look at how they're dumbing things down and flattening out the wrinkles and differences between jobs, and I think in the process they're closing that space for healers to exist in and make up for those challenging elements. MP management is basically a thing of the past on every job that doesn't have its own built in management, so healers can't help with that. TP hasn't existed for a while, so healers can't help with that either. Crit buffs are feeling more and more whatever because everyone's burst is gonna auto crit soon. What else is left? Positionals? Maybe AST can have a card that just gives you true north for 15 seconds! Oh, but then even positionals have been getting cut down and everyone's already got 2 stacks of true north anyway, and in the end everyone would just continue fishing for damage cards. Meanwhile, in 95% of content the actual outgoing damage is pitifully low, and the healer kit is ludicrously overtuned for it. I get why Yoshi told people to just try Ultimate if they're feeling unfulfilled, but with all due respect, I can enjoy playing my DPS jobs in normal difficulty content because they're fun and somewhat engaging. I should be able to do this as a healer too. But I don't see how it can be done without reworking the entire game and how its jobs work with each other, in a way that would almost certainly anger a big chunk of the player base. -
06-27-2022, 05:13 PMASkellingtonAnd there is absolutely NOTHING for veteran healers to get better at on ANY healer and no, I am sorry but you cannot sit here and tell me having 1 dot and 1 nuke from lv4-90 is ok on ANY class. That is abysmal design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Further, healers in previous expansion HAD more support and dps tools and they were removed. Your argument falls flat when the people who liked those original designs have nothing to be compensated. And yes, THAT INCLUDES WHITE MAGE.
No I don't want to play DPS as a healer, stop that train right there. What I want is to actually juggle between doing DPS, SUPPORT, and HEALING. Not even AST does that since its cards are flavorless which the devs themselves removed along with Nocturnal Sect.
You wanna know why PvP healers are more liked than PvE? Because they feel different from one another. SCH has Bane back and spreads its DoTs. AST may only have 3 of its cards back, but they're there, they're impactful and they're DIVERSE. (which I'll sound like a broken record SE REMOVED FROM THEM IN PREVIOUS EXPANSIONS read: before Shb) SGE is the one healer I think is friggin atrocious in PvP because its only heal is Kardia. And WHM? WHM feels more in line to a true healer in PvP with actually having heals.
That is what people like about PvP healers and y'know what? Those things I bolded from SCH and AST yeah we want them back and have been begging for them to come back since SHB. WHM lost Aero... what 3? For no reason. WHM also lost Stoneskin? for no reason. They can easily add those back to WHM and it would do NOTHING to current gameplay.
We're not just asking for wildly new things, we're also asking for the things we lost because we found those fun and they didn't need to be removed to begin with.
You say it isn't fair to the people who like the way healing is now, but how is it fair for you to say that when the healers you have NOW are the result of the HEALERS OF THE PAST LOSING THINGS?
So while I am in agreement it isn't fair to people who like healers now, it also isn't fair to people who liked how healers were in the past either. And personally, THOSE are the people SE SHOULD HAVE CATERED TO TO BEGIN WITH AND DIDN'T. -
06-27-2022, 05:25 PMSebazyAnd yet solo healer queues in Duty Finder have never been so consistently instant in the manner that they are now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Why is that?