FFXIV Bitter Sweet

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Originally Posted by Yoko_Kurama

I could tell you how happy I was to get that rare dagger at level 30 which I used until level 40 which was over a week of content alone.

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Omg... this made me cringe... do you have any idea how long I used my epic in EQ? My cleric had it for a couple of RL years! (Even after that I kept it in my bag to use!)

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Omg... this made me cringe... do you have any idea how long I used my epic in EQ? My cleric had it for a couple of RL years! (Even after that I kept it in my bag to use!)

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Dude I remember when my guild fought a dragon that normally is strong enough to wipe entire alliances and said dragon spawns once a week and out of 3 drops one was a high level shirt that I wore for over a year, people in the server specifically knew of me as the mage in blue goddess top lol. I totally know how you feel.

Great post OP. Sadly, this is what most people wanted.

2.0 has been a disappointment to me, a person coming from FFXI and FFXIV 1.0.

Honestly, this game would of been fine if they actually improved upon the WHOLE tried-and-true MMO and "WoW" formula but as it stands the game used much of what made other MMO's and WoW successful and delivered it in a worse manner than it's predecessors. How the fuck do you do that?

Oh well. I guess they did a good job with the little amount of time they had? Meh.

I still have hope for the game. I enjoyed FFXI and FFXIV 1.0, and I want to give 2.0 more of a chance. I enjoy FFXIV 2.0 to a degree. Let's see how the game turns out in 6 months.

My main beef with SE right now, other than their unpolished game, is the delay that's attached to everything you do in this game, nothing is "fluid" or "smooth". There was delay in FFXI and there was delay in FFXIV 1.0. It's STILL present in their 2013 release! My goodness!

Thank you for posting this. Literally everything you said I agree with and complain about all the time.

Why am I still here then? Because I've been here since 2010 1.0 and have been interested in seeing this game grow and want it to become something special, I'm personally invested in this game being amazing; I can suck up my complaints for a while and just try to have fun because I try to have faith they will fix things once they lose subscribers.

Materia is useless, crafting is borderline useless, dungeon gear replaces everything RAPIDLY, 1-49 has almost no meaning, and this game lays down all of its interesting content once you reach the END. It makes no sense, it really feels like a cheap carbon copy of what SE thinks western players want because look at how many westerners love MMOs! It feels like this game is selling its soul for the quick buck that the company needs to get out of the debt 1.0 incurred. Such a shame, it really is.

I can say the game is alright considering it's vanilla ARR, but this game as a whole has been out for 3 years and in my opinion a lot of backpedaling has been done on the direction it could and should have gone in for the armoury system. Jobs aren't numerous enough to feel like they give you versatility and instead feel like restrictions required of you for partying and endgame, literally the biggest strength this game has in its multiclass system is destroyed by jobs; I will never understand that along with the battle system catering to mindless rotations. Boss mechanics and patterns are the only things making battle interesting, not the combat itself.

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Originally Posted by Yoko_Kurama

THAT was a real mmorpg experience. THAT was adventure, don't bs the bser trying to say every game since the 90s was as dumbed down and simplistic as this...because you only show how little you know about mmorpgs with such statements.

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Okay, but the majority market share don't want immersive, slow experiences. It's 2013 and the market has moved on.

Exactly Ventus, and to everyone who thinks it's acceptable because the game just launched or they didn't have enough time it's baloney. It's 2013, I watched a speech Yoshi made talking about the failure of 1.0 being that the developers of 1.0 simply wanted something different and they had no actual direction, and that "The problem is they tried to make something out of nothing and this is not something you can do". Well, I don't think that something can be made from nothing either but you also shouldn't try to create something that is the same or fundamentally the same as something else in a world of progress.

No matter what any developer may think, they must or should factor technology into their equations, any digital game is powered by technology, this isn't D&D. I work in the industry of gaming technology (graphics cards to be precise) and graphics cards evolve yearly, technology as a whole evolves constantly, we are talking about games utilizing technologies which should be evolving so why aren't the games themselves evolving in terms of content, challenge, and immersion? A console game played today feels nothing like a console game from 10 years ago, and definitely not like one from the 90s, so why do mmos today feel the same? There is no logical excuse for a new mmo today to be launched which uses mechanics that come even close to the mechanics of a game launched 10 years ago. Everquest was successful, their developers were probably dreamers at the time, that is what we need again, dreamers. Perhaps 1.0 sucked because the dreamers of that game didn't have proper structure, but to take away those dreamers and replace them entirely with Yoshi and his robots was a mistake...

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Originally Posted by Yoko_Kurama

Everquest was successful, their developers were probably dreamers at the time, that is what we need again, dreamers. Perhaps 1.0 sucked because the dreamers of that game didn't have proper structure, but to take away those dreamers and replace them entirely with Yoshi and his robots was a mistake...

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I honestly don't think the issue comes from a lack of dreamers, I think the issues comes from the multitudes of view points of how a MMO should be built. MMO gamers have the distinction of being one of the most divided communities on earth. At any given time we demand from the development team that everything should be easier, harder, more distinct, more homogeneous, more casual friendly and more hard core all at once. Pre-WoW mmos launched they had a tiny (respectively) audience that, in general, had a unified mind on what an MMO should be. When a new MMO is announced the developers have to take all of those opnions into account and build a game that will attract the broadest group because they are demanded to make the most money possible.

Without the option for niche mmos due to the abhorrent cost of development we end up with problems like these. Where half the community hates it because it is too easy, half the community thinks it is great because they can play for 2 hours a night and see everything. Where skill gets looked down on in favor of attainability. Where these beautiful ideas that can make memories are pushed to the side because they would be under appreciated by the masses.

TLDR; Don't blame the devs, blame the cost of development.

Good post. Though you have to remember that what may be perfect for you, may not be perfect for others. After being a 7 year vet of WoW, FFXIV is a good chance of pace to me and I am having a blast.

yeah, say wordz! ley wize soy pro\ble!

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Originally Posted by IvoryFox

As for endgame grinding, I personally prefer this version of endgame to FFXI-like timesinks that always had random variables involved (spawn time, claim, griefing, RMT, etc.) on top of awful loot RNG that only a small percentage of the actual subscription base even bothered to take part in. Why wouldn't you copy a game design/business model that caters to the majority of your audience rather than the minority? I am not claiming you want this game to be like FFXI, but you don't really offer up any real solutions either. Just "this is bad because Blizzard".

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What you are saying is just so wrong... you literally only listed HNM's as FF11's endgame, HNM's was 1 single part of prob 15+ endgame events, not to mention every single drop that was worth getting from HNM's was available in sky/Einherjar (excluding d.ring and before you say it (ridill which was later found to be worse than a m.cris)). HNM's is what every casual person ever from FF11 loves to turn to for whatever reason and it will never have any real ground, "hardcores" were willing to put in an extra 20hrs+ a week for a chance (claim) at a chance (drop rate) at a chance (distributing loot) for a slightly higher chance at getting gear which was generally .01-5% every 3-7 days (3 being very lucky) which was also available in other "endgame" events.
People being butthurt that endgame shells who managed to generally keep 40-60 members together in order to get these slightly higher drop rates for a ridiculous amount of extra play time in comparison to the casual play time of maby 5hrs a week is just ridiculous and always will be, hardcores just want something to do that's meaningful within the game to burn time, it doesn't even need to be much, just something.

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Originally Posted by AhriSazame

Good post. Though you have to remember that what may be perfect for you, may not be perfect for others. After being a 7 year vet of WoW, FFXIV is a good chance of pace to me and I am having a blast.

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The difference is, even the "hardcores" from FF11 agreed that FF14 needed to be more casual friendly, but we were literally tricked via polls given by Yoshi, he asked everyone in 1.0 if we would like "quest leveling to be added" so we all said sure, the more you add to the game the better, give casuals more of what they want considering mob grinding already existed. They took this pole as "replace grind leveling with quest leveling" apparently and did so. People from FF11 were trying to bend over backwards, we fully believe a game cannot survive without casuals, just as 11 could not have believe it or not and we got stabbed in the back every single step of the way.

The game could have combined what FF11 had with a the far more casual friendly stuff, from what im hearing, this game is losing a lot of people sense they started charging, Yoshi apparently didn't know that there's a constant group of about 2 million people who have been game hopping to every single MMO in the last 10yrs or so, always complaining on forums and never happy, and he listened to them instead of FF fans.

I really agree with the OP, what really stood out to me was:

You only use a gear set for 2 hours then it's on to the next one, this is something I sorely miss from FFXI, and it's why I don't really feel like playing another job. If SQEnix doesn't make the after lvl 50 lvling more balanced they won't have my subscription for much longer.

Do you remember that awesome feeling starting a new job, knowing you could finally unbox those freshly cleaned lizzy boots and lvl 11 studded/bone set you were saving and those lvl 14 HQ rings? You got that feeling because they got you through some tough days, but now you're ready for it. Oh and hey, since you're spending more time in the lvl 1-75 grind, stats mattered - now they only matter end-game.

So fine SQ, if you want to cater to the mainstream and make lvl 1-50 in FFXIV basically what lvl 1-20 was for us in FFXI, fine. You get your "modernized" MMO, but please after lvl 50 do it properly.

FFXIV isn't hiding the fact that the game is more expansive when you are level 50. Yoshi is preparing you for end game because no other game does. What did you expect? To be the hero of your nation at level 10? It doesn't matter if you are a casual or a hardcore player in this game; you will eventually reach the end. What everyone fails to realize is that Yoshi includes massively useful group based tutorials in order to get players accustomed to a group environment and battle mechanics -- GUILDHESTS.

Did you even finish all your Guildhests? I didn't, because I'm familiar with MMOs (as you probably are). I'm sure even if people weren't familiar, they probably didn't do them anyways. That's not Yoshi's fault, that's the player's fault. The game should not be designed to force itself to prepare you for content; then it wouldn't be a game it would be a script. It should provide you with options and leniency to follow through, which it does.

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Originally Posted by Azadross

Or perhaps it is because they are passionate about the game and want to see it still running and healthy well into the future.

Whilst I am enjoying the game even I can see the shortcomings SE have created with a number of the directions they have chosen. One thing I didn't see SE comment about when looking to WoW for direction was "why is it in decline?", to which there is a number of different answers, but for myself and all the players from my guild it was the fact that Blizzard made everything so accessible/easy it became utterly boring. To many games have taken the euphoric feeling of achieving something that takes some effort and replaced it with a very deadpan "well that's done, what's next".

The other thing that I would point out is how many other games have followed WoW's manifesto only to have a large fall in player numbers after a short period of time due to racing people to this supposed magic end-game. I sometimes wonder why have levels at all in MMORPG's and not just create a lobby game if the "real" game starts at maximum level. The entire game from level 1-50 should be something everyone wants to partake in because it's interesting and has at least a modest amount of challenge rather than skipping to the end, currently it's like an author telling you to read the last chapter of a book first because the rest doesn't matter.

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Exactly! This is exactly the point I'm trying to get across, all of it.

Um....no.

It doesn't prepare you for endgame. It is fully possible to go from 12-50, efficiently, as blm with one button.
Warriors can get there with overpower.
Paladins with Flash.

It's the fastest, most-effective, most profitable (seals+gil) way to level in this game.

And then some people get 50 and have no idea what to do.

Endgame is exansive? No it's not. It's grind 2, but really 1, dungeon. Spam ifrit, and nauseate yourself in CM. Once you're ready for coil/other primals, that's cool too.

I was a huge opponent of the AK speed runs, I begged SE to give us a reason to want to kill trash, the only reason they gave is that now trash will kill you if you don't.

As I understand it, most (all?) of these 4 man dungeons are from 1.0. Not a lot went into endgame, just tweaking what was already there. And yeah, at launch, level cap dungeons count as end-game.

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Originally Posted by Amiantos

Just curious if you dislike this game/direction it's going whats the point in continuing to play? I'm sorry if I'm misreading your stuff but from what it seems to me is you are not enjoying the game. I'm enjoying said magic tricks and I know others are but if you aren't why bother continuing to play?

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I think the reason is fairly simple. You have to understand that many of us, even the ones that are a little disappointed with the game, have a strong desire to play an MMO set in a Final Fantasy universe. The final fantasy brand has drawn me to this MMO and I want so bad for it to be a game I could get into for a long period of time. However, if I take a step back and look at the game realistically..I am not sure it has what it takes to keep people interested for the long haul. That said some of us still want to give it an opportunity while we continue to have some fun in the game..and maybe just maybe it will come around with future content.

The problem is that if it doesn't deliver with future expansions/updates than I am not sure that even the most hardcore Final Fantasy fans are going to be sticking around. Sure some will, but there are already many people hinting at the fact that their simply not sure if they want to subscribe at all when their free time is up because they have bum rushed the majority of the content already...and whats left isn't enough to keep their attention...at least enough for them to keep throwing money at it.

As it stands though, think realistically, I doubt they will change the 1-50 grind much, it's there, there's a story line for the first time through which is decent (my opinion, to coin the OP) - it's enough to sell the game and get 2, maybe 3 months of subscriptions and the endgame will be updated through patches.

I just hope they:

1. Balance the FATE rewards with Dungeon rewards (already in the works I believe)

2. Add an optional large dungeon every 10 levels we can use to grind? It should be much harder, gear even at the lvl 20 dungeon should be extremely important, this is to cater to the high levels who are lvling a 2nd job and to give some accomplishment to collecting a good lvl 20 gear set they can re-use for the next DD/tank/mage

3. Following #2, add a good gear set every 10 levels-ish that is really hard to get - which you can get as a high level, so it'd be something fun to do, like oh hey I want to lvl a whm, but I only have melee DDs at 50

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Originally Posted by Azadross

Or perhaps it is because they are passionate about the game and want to see it still running and healthy well into the future.

Whilst I am enjoying the game even I can see the shortcomings SE have created with a number of the directions they have chosen. One thing I didn't see SE comment about when looking to WoW for direction was "why is it in decline?", to which there is a number of different answers, but for myself and all the players from my guild it was the fact that Blizzard made everything so accessible/easy it became utterly boring. To many games have taken the euphoric feeling of achieving something that takes some effort and replaced it with a very deadpan "well that's done, what's next".

The other thing that I would point out is how many other games have followed WoW's manifesto only to have a large fall in player numbers after a short period of time due to racing people to this supposed magic end-game. I sometimes wonder why have levels at all in MMORPG's and not just create a lobby game if the "real" game starts at maximum level. The entire game from level 1-50 should be something everyone wants to partake in because it's interesting and has at least a modest amount of challenge rather than skipping to the end, currently it's like an author telling you to read the last chapter of a book first because the rest doesn't matter.

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I've said basically the same thing many times to people... the MMO genre seems to be going in a cycle, they started with no levels, and some newer MMO's are getting rid of them again (I believe GW2 is the game that lets you do endgame at any level, syncs you or w/e). The first MMO to make their game level-less in the future will prob be called revolutionary and make a fortune, then the first game 10-20yrs after that to "invent" levels will be called revolutionary.

The problem with adding better gear sets every 10 levels is that the content itself is so easy that you would burn through those levels without feeling the difference. The first 30 levels you could probably get through naked if we are being honest...They would need to make the entire 1-50 experience much more challenging and immersing to warrant having gears at low levels actually mean something. I see that in the next patch they will have 3 pvp areas, level 30, levle 40, and level 50, this may help because people will actually go out of their way to make gear sets for those levels to pvp at...but it's still too easy to accomplish that. I mean, ok now you will make crafters a little more relevant but how hard is it to level a 30 crafter and HQ a gear set for level 30 pvp? The entire experience simply needs to be more challenging but i guess it's too early to tell, lets see how pvp is truly implemented, i wonder if they will still have the global cooldown on pvp skills *rolls eyes*

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Originally Posted by MistressAthena

End Notes:

This game is just a Bum Rush to 50, while when you get there, its 1 endless grind after another for "Better" armor, but nothing ultimately new. This alone makes End Game empty, as there is nothing truly "new" besides a new cosmetic piece with a few better stats, while you end up grinding the same exact thing again and again and again and again....

The Oxymoron thing here, is that most of these players complain about how FFXI was nothing but a grind in the same area on the same mob....

Sorry to break it to you.. But so is FFXIV, except instead of the same area and mob, its the same dungeon, over and over and over, and unlike FFXI where you can look forward to that new skill, new sets of armor, new quests, and new part of the main story, and loads of other things at your next 10 levels, you having nothing to look forward too, except yet.. More of the same dungeon...

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Very well said.

I read a few responses first to try and see if there was a decent synopsis for the wall of text. I decided it was worth a read.

I stopped reading the first time you said "could of".

Sadly, it was in the third paragraph so I didn't see any real content.

I've seen this at least a thousand times on here since the beta. Either say "could've" or "could have". The same goes for "should have" and "would have".

I'm not usually one to pick these things out, but after seeing it so many times on here in the past year, usually in the context of a "well thought out and meaningful post", I couldn't help myself. I don't see how anything can be well thought out and include the phrase "could of".

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Originally Posted by MistressAthena

Rabble Rabble Rabble Rabble
http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_as...ble_medium.jpg

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This one agrees with a great majority of what is said in this post. Part of the awesomeness of XI was how long it took to get max level, and it has always said how XI derps/PUGs were > 80% of 'skilled' WoW players because of how much they had to know their class to level. This game kinda loses that and you get players in nearly full DL that do less DPS than a skilled tank...

I totally agree with you. Since 2-3 weeks I've logged in maybe 5 times, the endgame right now is such a boring grind that keeps me from login in, there's just no fun at all spamming the same dungeons over and over again and still progress really slow. Currently I have decent gear and have to do titan for the relic quest, but I don't even really bother to do it.

Leveling another job? Boring, and because I already done a lot quests because I didn't grind trough fates to 50 the first time, I'm gonna be forced to do them or spam dungeons.

Crafting is also just a huge grind, I don't even want to talk about it.

There's just no feel of achievement what so ever.

I really try to love this game as it is right now, but I can't. I think I'm gonna take a break until the next patch comes out with hopefully good content. I really hoped for a good FF MMO finally, because I'm a huge fan of the FF universe, I pretty much grew up with it, but all I got is a huge grind fest with no diversity.

You know the OP is on to something when it takes longer to get from one end of Windurst to the other than it does to get across the entire game world in ARR

I'd like to expand on a point the OP made if I may.

The biggest 'turn-off' I found was the fact that 1-50 was too fast, a point the OP mentioned. Now, I'm a sucker for a good quest line and you have to credit ARR's main-story line but the side-quests are VERY lackluster.

Using WoW as an example (sorry), you have countless areas which overlap one-another in terms of their Level requirement which is an amazing thing for levellers among us. WoW gives the incentive to roll alts as it's very possible to Level 1-60/70/80/85/90 in very unique ways and experience 60-80 quests in a zone telling a mini-story.

Levelling a second DoW/M in ARR offers no incentive to explore new zones as the fact is the quests simply are not there to enjoy and FATEs/Hunting Logs just are not particularly fun. Levelling a second character also offers no variation in play-through as the main story quest will never change after the first 20 or so levels.

In short, this game got boring fast.

I really wish elements had a role in this game. It would make it stand out more from other games. I mean this is an FF game can we please have element-affinity monsters and certain elements be weak to them? It'd be so much more interesting than just spamming the same skill over again.

The OP put into words exactly what I am feeling in my gut. I've tried to explain it in a coherent manner to my friend and failed. Instead I will direct them to this post.

I like the game but I am not in love with it. It is an enjoyable but shallow experience.

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Originally Posted by ufufu

Okay, but the majority market share don't want immersive, slow experiences. It's 2013 and the market has moved on.

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To candy instead of steak.

I don't know... I don't agree with all of this. Those who rush to the end will obviously get there quickly. Those who read the text in sidequests and take in the scenery will get a deeper experience. It's all in the playstyle. But i definetly agree that the zones/areas are too small - so far, I haven't felt like I'm in the wilderness even once. There's a rooftop around every corner. And THAT bothers me.

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Originally Posted by Leowilde

I don't know... I don't agree with all of this. Those who rush to the end will obviously get there quickly. Those who read the text in sidequests and take in the scenery will get a deeper experience. It's all in the playstyle. But i definetly agree that the zones/areas are too small - so far, I haven't felt like I'm in the wilderness even once. There's a rooftop around every corner. And THAT bothers me.

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This is one of the biggest immersion breakers. I do read the quests, I do read everything, and I don't grind Fates, but its still to fast. That being said, reading the quests and getting into the Lore is in and of itself immersion breaking. Which is terrible.

It's terrible to have a story that's so immersion breaking when you try to get into it, it should be the exact opposite, but with NPCs talking about how they have to "rebuild" from the calamity and you see rooftops around every corner, and outposts in every inch of everywhere, really leads you to believe that there is no rebuilding needing to be done. Having NPCs tell you "Can you go Deep into the woods for me, and obtain a few boxes I dropped? I'd do it myself but its far to dangerous for me", only to realize that those boxes deep in the woods is literally 5 feet from the crystal area, and you can literally see the boxes from the outpost... yea.. Total immersion breaker.

As for the smaller area's, the excuse that it had to be ported to console and the PS3 couldn't handle it, is a complete bogus excuse. If the PS2 could handle FFXI area's, the PS3 can handle the same sized area's and bigger. The only problem FFXIV 1.0 had was that it was poorly scripted and executed, and not properly streamlined which is why the PS3 was having issues with it. If they fixed that, there is no reason why the area's couldn't be as big and open ended like 1.0's were.

I dont know taking FFXI as a reference... The initial release of FFXI it had much less content. The city story mission were nothing compared to later content like Chains of Promethia. In my opinion it's way too early to judge over the game. Also, leveling one job can be fast in the game but I take that as a chance to finally level more than one job at the same time. That was a problem in FFXIs earlier days, because crafting was damn expensive and took many hours. Not to mention that crafting was no fun. That's why I think the pace of the game is fine. The only thing I agree is that the game doesn't force people to play together. I don't want FFXI dumb XP parties back but it could be a bit more community play

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Originally Posted by MistressAthena

As for the smaller area's, the excuse that it had to be ported to console and the PS3 couldn't handle it, is a complete bogus excuse. If the PS2 could handle FFXI area's, the PS3 can handle the same sized area's and bigger. The only problem FFXIV 1.0 had was that it was poorly scripted and executed, and not properly streamlined which is why the PS3 was having issues with it. If they fixed that, there is no reason why the area's couldn't be as big and open ended like 1.0's were.

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The devs themselves said their main problem with the PS3 was memory. Also, FFXI might have bigger areas, but the game was made with PS2 in mind, meaning the details of the maps, textures etc were adjusted to that. And to be honest, FFXI does look a bit bland, from what I saw, compared to FFXIV. You have to keep in mind, that the PS2 was next gen at that time, though, while the PS3 now is already last gen. If you can't imagine what it means, try to get your hands on a 7800GT and play any game@720p/1080p. You'll see the performance limit immediately, and that chip is the same that the PS3 uses. So it's a miracle the devs managed to squeeze out 30fps out of it.

The whole talk about a separate DX11 client/PS4 version is so that they can go wild with the effects on more modern hardware. They can't make the clients too different though, so map size have to be set to the least common denominator - in our case the PS3. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying they have to keep the world small. The maps will stay the current size, but they could make more of them, and they will make more of them with expansions. That's why the comparison with FFXI is not really fair, as people said before.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

The devs themselves said their main problem with the PS3 was memory. Also, FFXI might have bigger areas, but the game was made with PS2 in mind, meaning the details of the maps, textures etc were adjusted to that. And to be honest, FFXI does look a bit bland, from what I saw, compared to FFXIV. You have to keep in mind, that the PS2 was next gen at that time, though, while the PS3 now is already last gen. If you can't imagine what it means, try to get your hands on a 7800GT and play any game@720p/1080p. You'll see the performance limit immediately, and that chip is the same that the PS3 uses. So it's a miracle the devs managed to squeeze out 30fps out of it.

The whole talk about a separate DX11 client/PS4 version is so that they can go wild with the effects on more modern hardware. They can't make the clients too different though, so map size have to be set to the least common denominator - in our case the PS3. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying they have to keep the world small. The maps will stay the current size, but they could make more of them, and they will make more of them with expansions. That's why the comparison with FFXI is not really fair, as people said before.

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Still a weak excuse. There are ways around that, as you said, build it with the PS3 in mind, that being said, they did, but still limited it more than it needed to be with proper optimization.

But lets say you are right, and they did push out every last ounce of the PS3's capability (even if I don't believe it myself). What are the new area's going to bring? More level 50-60-70 dungeons of yet more grinding for hundreds of hours just to get another suit of armor that just has better stats? ultimately the whole real issue comes down to the fact the End Game is the games only focus.. What can they really add to give it depth? That's the 1 serious issue they are going to have.

Sorry to use FFXI again as an example, I know its over used, but its the best example I have from personal experience.

FFXI had not just End Game to focus on of grinding Sea, Sky, etc. But it also had the normal leveling parties (which were fun to alot of people, though maybe not all the time). You had NM's, HNM's to go out and hunt, which was fun. You had a difficult, and very interesting story to each expansion which took a long time to get through because it required a party, and even then took hours to get through those area's at best.

You had AF quests to go after which again, took weeks of focusing to obtain. You had side quests for extra skills which took time and patience to obtain.

The list goes on and on of possibilities other than just "End game" to focus on in FFXI, all of which were fun to do.

So again.. What can FFXIV bring to the table to pull away from "Just an End Game Grind of boredom".

It not a weak excuse, it's a fact. I don't know your background, but coming from the programming side myself, I know how fast a system can become the limit. If they designed FFXIV completely with PS3 in mind, we'd have the copy-pasted 1.0 maps again.

The problem are not the maps though, but as you said, the focus on instanced content. This is a trend in most recent MMOs, because people are selfish and don't want someone else to have "their" monsters. Open worlds are dying off and everything is getting moved to instances, which just reinforces the "us and them" mentality, where people keep all things to their linkshells/FCs and don't socialize with people outside it. Of course there are people who don't follow that path, but those are few, hence not a focus for SE.

It all boils down to what the majority wants. And the majority doesn't want an open world.
They want quick runs to get their 1337 gear so they can stand around in uldah with their weapons out.

I'm not saying it's fine like this, but we are obviously not the majority, but a niche audience.
I am glad SE at least gave a damn about the quest texts and the game actually having a story.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

It not a weak excuse, it's a fact. I don't know your background, but coming from the programming side myself, I know how fast a system can become the limit. If they designed FFXIV completely with PS3 in mind, we'd have the copy-pasted 1.0 maps again.

The problem are not the maps though, but as you said, the focus on instanced content. This is a trend in most recent MMOs, because people are selfish and don't want someone else to have "their" monsters. Open worlds are dying off and everything is getting moved to instances, which just reinforces the "us and them" mentality, where people keep all things to their linkshells/FCs and don't socialize with people outside it. Of course there are people who don't follow that path, but those are few, hence not a focus for SE.

It all boils down to what the majority wants. And the majority doesn't want an open world.
They want quick runs to get their 1337 gear so they can stand around in uldah with their weapons out.

I'm not saying it's fine like this, but we are obviously not the majority, but a niche audience.
I am glad SE at least gave a damn about the quest texts and the game actually having a story.

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I don't believe this is a majority. I believe it is just the most outspoken minority tbh. If you actually go out and talk to people, they may at first be like "oh yea the game is fine!" but them ore you talk to them, the more they'll start to say "well yea it would be better this way or that".

I think the novelty of FFXIV will wear off very quickly as people realize its nothing but a grind for literally nothing achieving, and new MMO's are released. It may even be a year before that happens, but it will happen if the game stays how it is. Open Worlds are not dieing off, and alot of people wanted more party, social oriented gaming for FFXIV, which Yoshi failed to deliver. 1.0 had it, and it was great, and people loved that aspect of it. What they didn't love was how poorly the game itself played due to bad optimization, and how certain things were far harder than they needed to be which caused balance issues. Crafting being a good example. Crafting was much harder than it needed to be, (not saying the stupid easy version of FFXIV is better mind you), but when your game literally depends on crafters to make items as you cannot get those equipments anywhere else, then you have a serious problem.

What Yoshi ultimately did was strip everything players loved about 1.0, and replaced it with dumbed down and shallow content, while fixing the problems of 1.0... Basically the good/bad was switched, literally. As now we have more than enough equipment, and everythings stupid easy, but now we have a chaotic market of it being flooded with literally everything. We have a smoother running game, but ultimately much more shallow than 1.0 was as a whole...

Anyway, to not go off on a tangent..... Yoshi I believe, needs to realize this, and despite what he said of how "FFXIV 1.0 developers had no real focus" is ultimately a lie. They did, they just didn't bring it to the players right, and while Yoshi has a focus as well, he's failing to realize some very critical things.

It seems to me as my final note, that Yoshi is attempting to do what WoW did, and copy it, without realizing that the novelty of WoW has all but died away for the mass majority as well, and we still have mass numbers of MMO players looking for that solid, immersive gaming experience that old MMO's used to bring and are literally jumping from 1 MMO to the next as they are released. Yoshi missed a golden opportunity to deliver that, and I fear that FFXIV will be another so-so MMO that most players leave as soon as that new MMO comes out 1-2 years down the road and FFXIV will just be another foot note.

I'm more inclined to think we're the vocal minority, after all we're the ones discussing these things, and not the ones who keep silent. On topic of WoW, I think I remember Yoshida mention exactly what you did, that another WoW isn't happening. They still wanted to take things that made WoW good though, and bring it to FFXIV.

After the disaster the 1.0 version initially was, they simply couldn't afford to experiment, thus they went with the "proven" concept. I don't think that they are unaware that it was both proven to work for WoW, and proven to fail if you just make a WoW clone. And I don't feel like ARR is a WoW clone. Similar, yeah, a clone, I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

I'm more inclined to think we're the vocal minority, after all we're the ones discussing these things, and not the ones who keep silent. On topic of WoW, I think I remember Yoshida mention exactly what you did, that another WoW isn't happening. They still wanted to take things that made WoW good though, and bring it to FFXIV.

After the disaster the 1.0 version initially was, they simply couldn't afford to experiment, thus they went with the "proven" concept. I don't think that they are unaware that it was both proven to work for WoW, and proven to fail if you just make a WoW clone. And I don't feel like ARR is a WoW clone. Similar, yeah, a clone, I don't think so.

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I'm not saying its a clone exactly, but its bringing nothing to the table literally. Right now its just a boring grind of absolutely nothing worthwhile but a new pair of equipment that doesn't even do anything worthwhile for you besides open up yet another 100 hours of grinding in a new dungeon. They have to figure out something to get away from this. A new story won't cut it if its non stop more dungeons. They have to figure out a way to make crafting worhwhile.

This game is gonna be a massive mess, 1 I'm sure SE is already feeling. How do you make Crafting worthwhile, like really worthwhile when all the equipment people need or want comes from dungeons, and dungeon drops? Even now the crafting as a whole is worthless except for the 2 star items, mostly however it collects dust if not Materia melding (that of which is completely pointless in and of itself).

I'm both excited, and scared to see what they bring on the new expansion they are working on. New Area's, new mobs, new dungeons and new story simply won't cut it. Since half of that is obsolete before they even make it. Monsters are pointless, or nearly pointless... When do you ever need to kill them other htan to craft? you can run past them no problem, and they pose no issue. So new mobs are ultimately pointless, New Area's, again.. filled with pointless stuff. New dungeons.. yay more grinding for hundreds of hours! Only good thing will be the new story and once that novelty wears off its.. bleh...

So I'm really wondering, what could they possibly add to make FFXIV worthwhile, and have depth. hmmm.... I know I'm being overly blunt, and possibly throwing a bit out of proportion (but not much). The whole point is.. they really gotta give something new to the player base.

Making crafting worthwhile could be done by making those recipes an alternative to the farmed gear. Either farm the mats or farm the dungeons. Both is farming though. They can't make one or the other more lucrative if they want to keep the balance. I heard that Darksteel stuff is on par with Darklight, and it involves melding stuff to it. It also has a different look, so people not liking DL can go the alternative route. Which also makes for some diversity in player looks.

And yes, they said the world mobs are just trash mobs. So I don't think this is going to change. Log in, get a group, open DF, spam content. That's the game it is. I do enjoy most of the encounters though, so that's fine in itself. Having that open world laying out there deserted is a shame, really.

Coming from XI and having played the beta for 1.0 i can say this game is not only enjoyable but one i will be playing for a long long time. On leveling im glad its not like lvling was in XI granted i loved that game with a passion but getting to 75 was almost a 6-8 month Period for those who didnt have their entire life to throw at the game and even then it took 4-6 with 4-5 hours a day. lvling was tedious and just a chore in Xi granted you felt accomplished after hitting 75 but i just hit 50 on my Dragoon and i still had that same feeling of accomplishment. Fate grinding was a small part of it but in all i lvled the same way i lvled in XI old school party grinding, but in the end it all comes down to one simple question. Do you enjoy the game? Take a game with its flaws or leave it. XI was hugely flawed and second job and well a second life yet i played that for 10 years.

So I made a reply and it says it's too long.... I wasnt gonna post it anymore but after seeing your last reply MistressAthena I think you should see it, but anyway.... Imma quote just one thing of it and post it all if you care for it but doubtfully.

Quote:

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...that ultimately we are the ones who choose how to enjoy the game, and what to

make out of it. If you don't like it or find something aggravating, you can always find a way of fixing it for yourself.

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As last resort, you can just quit the game, if you find it too aggravating, after all it's there to enjoy it. Don't bring hazard things into your life if you can avoid it :3

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EDIT: Try to stay positive! I'm sure it'll go forward and get better! :P I have high hopes -.- Either way however the game is right now I still enjoy it, tho I'm sure I don't have anywhere near as many hours as many of the people that complain about the grinding and such have XD