People WHO WANT A REAL SUMMONER pet class

I've read through the first few pages of this thread and all I read is people bickering like school bullies. Not that you need to not do this, shouldn't do it, and with that you're all WRONG! When I say WRONG I mean completely wrong, drinking out of public toilet wrong, and/or licking the underside of an elementary child's desk that loves to wipe every bit of itself there, you remember this individual was in your home room(s). If that is not a clear enough picture for you. You probably don't even know that every single person you meet in your life is so proud of you, because damn if you're going to be able to be a complete functioning human, maybe a wee bit heavy on the 21 chromosome. Who knows at least you like to do something and are good at it. Some people are not that lucky, you are, you smiling bastard.

Continue to second post 1000 char limit.

Some of you were that person and maybe I was that person too. Damn this is off topic.

Well I am Bur Kek and I clicked this thread hoping to see what the OP was talking about. I did get to see that in addition to all of the 'Muh Tohts Da Tastest In Muh Mouf Bits.' I must say that if you do not want what the OP is describing you should go make your own thread. It is like going to a petting zoo to pet zoo animals, but instead you go to church and touch people.

The zoo pen is full of laid back Antelopes getting a long, tossing the b-ball around after a mid afternoon nap, when all of sudden a Jackalope jumps the fence. The Jackalope says 'I AM THE CULT OF SELF' while running around knocking over baby Antelopes, a real jerk. Once the Jackalope gets tired and stops running in circles, it sits down. The Jackalope then opens its mouth, nothing comes out, nothing of relation to the Antelope pen it is in, and then it deflates into a floppy empty Jackalope made from neoprene.

Jackalopes aren't real ya dingus, for your health!

Besides the wall of text above why can't the summon spell you get at level 50 Summoner summon a random player from your server, same level, random class, and allow you to control them until you release them. I don't see why people wouldn't want to watch someone else play their character. Just my 4AM thoughts or are they yours too?

Tl;dr Stuff OP said isn't what you want, so you get on microphone, big one with flashing lights, and jib-jab your jaw spurting out that your personal opinion is more important than the OP, however unrelated, derailing the thread, making me, your friend, yes your true friend, read more of your jib-jab than he has time to. Then I attempt to share my most inner beautiful thoughts and fail.

Burnt Toast, tires made of cake and carpet, maybe?

PS- I am bad at all things I do, including posting on forums at 5 something AM, and English in general.

I love people.
"WoW is everywhere, thanks god I never played WoW". Shut up then.

I agree SMN isn't my favourite job either, since I've never been into DoTs.
The Rift's version of summoning was better though : elementals, some spells upgrading elementals, and symbiosis between both.

But all the "OMG FF SMN WAS NEVER LIKE THAT" is plain bs. Things change, maybe they'll change again, but for now SMN is a dot/pet class.

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Originally Posted by Nux

FF Tactics ? the even take some of wardrobe design from it, kinda funny that none talk about FFT. well if you see summoner in FFT you'll expect them to throw their summon at you not DoT-ing you to death.

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Like I've already said, Summoner in FFT was nothing more than AOE versions of White and Black Magic. So by your logic, Summoners shouldn't have pets at all. They should have long cast time burst damage AOEs and nothing else. Might as well just be the Black Mage at that point.

So again, Historic FF Summoners are nothing like what you guys are asking for.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

Like I've already said, Summoner in FFT was nothing more than AOE versions of White and Black Magic. So by your logic, Summoners shouldn't have pets at all. They should have long cast time burst damage AOEs and nothing else. Might as well just be the Black Mage at that point.

So again, Historic FF Summoners are nothing like what you guys are asking for.

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Good point

But let me give some point, you know Archer (Not in game but in real world) they carry daggers and in some case a sword, they are archers but why did they have daggers / sword with them ? needles to say if they somehow forced to engage enemy in close combat they have option to fend them off you could say that was their SECONDARY weapon that used when need arise and if i was an archer i'll do my job by using my MAIN weapon to engage enemies from afar because that was what an archer supposed and expected to do.

With the summoner case it was you yourself become your main weapon and your summon is just a secondary tool

We try to read these as for now for basic understanding

What Archers do ? they will attack you from afar with their bow
What Mages do ? they will attack you with their spells
What Swordsman do ? they will slash and stab you with their sword
What Summoners do ? they will curse and give you sickness from their grimoire to kill you << i can guarantee that even some random people that know nothing will feel strange by this explanation

ok maybe that wasn't fair, the summon was there so let me rephrase that
What Summoners do ? they will curse and give you sickness to kill you from their grimoire while their summon attacking you
that was almost feel right, but only almost because i am unable to write that their summons do the killing

then lets we make some edited explanation by reversing
What summoners do ? Their summon will come after to kill you while the summoner will curse and give you sickness << this one didn't happen

so we can came up with 2 definition, let see which one fit properly ?
1. What Summoners do ? they will curse and give you sickness from their grimoire to kill you while their summon attacking you
2. What summoners do ? Their summon will come after to kill you while the summoner will curse and give you sickness from their grimoire

I dont want to speak about damage/DPS but i think i'll add some fun fact for to the table
the summoners do more damage than their summoned summons

end note and also for TLDR's
If i may can i ask you and everyone else opinion, which definition befits for the title of a Summoner ? 1 or 2 ?

I think the summoner job should change to Green Mage and they should add a summoner job that 100% focuses on pets. This way people that like summoner as it is can still play and enjoy it, and people that want a more pet focused summoner can play that.

All these complaints about SMNs not playing like how you think a "FF Summoner" would play, and not a single complaint about BRDs not behaving like a FF Bard should? Last I checked, bards weren't just archers who sing a song while shooting arrows. If SE were to change SMN to what you think a SMN should be, they'd need to change a few of the other classes out of principle.

You guys are forgetting that a job isn't its own entity, it's AN EXTENSION OF ITS BASE CLASS. A SMN is an Arcanist who has more powerful summons/pets. That's it.

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Originally Posted by GuyWithFace

All these complaints about SMNs not playing like how you think a "FF Summoner" would play, and not a single complaint about BRDs not behaving like a FF Bard should? Last I checked, bards weren't just archers who sing a song while shooting arrows. If SE were to change SMN to what you think a SMN should be, they'd need to change a few of the other classes out of principle.

You guys are forgetting that a job isn't its own entity, it's AN EXTENSION OF ITS BASE CLASS. A SMN is an Arcanist who has more powerful summons/pets. That's it.

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Bards, historically speaking (in real world) are usually spies in disguise (even though not all of them) and they're notable in using daggers, bows, and crossbows, so you can say that basically bards are adept in using those weapons. You will rarely seen bard in midst of battle because it's not where they placed, they have their own roles in this particular areas as a spy.

And meanwhile in fantasy worlds bards are usually able to sing a song imbued with magical properties that have various effect either to harm/weaken enemies or improve allies/party performance, and they are often become a mixed class that able to use daggers and/or crossbows (a thief/ranger like role that can play various arcane tune/song)

So actually, the bards in ARR fits for their title as a Bard

and you said that it was an EXTENSION class, so basically that we can agree that SE made mistakes by using arcanist as a base class for summoner, no ? and scholar should have been the only EXTENSION came from aranist since it more fitting for them.

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Originally Posted by Nux

With the summoner case it was you yourself become your main weapon and your summon is just a secondary tool


What summoners do ? Their summon will come after to kill you while the summoner will curse and give you sickness << this one didn't happen

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They could potentially re-balance the class abilities to make the summons more effective, and the DoTs not the main source of the Summoner's damage output. This is something that happens in other MMOs all the time, and could happen if enough people ask for it. But completely overhauling the class, including the design of the summons themselves, like the OP wants will never happen.

And even the re-balance wouldn't happen for quite a while because Square Enix has enough stability issues to deal with first before they start changing game mechanics.

I agree with the OP.

For those of us who have played most FF games, this class feels nothing like what a summoner is supposed to be. It completely betrays the theme I think. It's underwhelming.

There are small things they could do to fix this I think:

1. Increase eggi detail and size.
2. Allow Enkindle animation to transform eggi to a full primal for a second. Just this animation change alone would make a big difference in the feel.

More complex changes:
1. Shift more summoner damage away from the player and more toward the eggi.
2. Allow for summoner to teach the eggi skills (similar to FFX), and make it more of a class whose number one learning curve priority is learning to customize and control your summon.

going through the thread it seems like people care more about what the damn pet looks like instead of how the Job actually plays.

The problem is people want this but fail to understand this is a MMO. FFXI had a lot of complaints that those summons where to big and annoying. The big ZOMG IFRIT summon is coming but it'll be a FC that summons them, not one single individual.

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Originally Posted by Nemhy

going through the thread it seems like people care more about what the damn pet looks like instead of how the Job actually plays.

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^This... I read through the entire thread hoping to find a response that wasn't written in frustration or defence. If someone is able to tell me, in proper English, what exactly they're after and what their basis of wanting it is (ie all I've seen is "this is not a summoner" yet no one has said what a summoner should be). Also links to sources which gives examples of what you want or that support your vision would help (and they should be from SE as they are the source material). If someone can do this, and structure an argument that isn't filled with trash talk and derogatory comments then ill listen for sure.

I'm all for people stating their opinion and I respect that for some people the classes in this game aren't what they wanted them to be - i play warrior and I would have expected something with that big an axe to be a DPS, and I also play Archer, turning into a Bard just doesn't sit right either but I respect the design of the game and the ecosystem of the world. And in this world it works somehow... But please, if that one person can give me the argument I described above then I think you'll find everyone in this thread that is not agreeing with you will - at least - be able to see things your way. Because as it stands, in my opinion from reading through the posts, the main complaint is that the summons are too small and that you're doing damage yourself as well as your summon...

I wanted something like this. The pet needs to interact more with the summoner you are meant to be a team. When I talk to scholars they say they feel like a team with their fairy I don't get that with summoner. I feel like a dot spellcaster I tend to even forget the summoner is there.

Yes I think they should be re worked slightly the pets need to interact more with the summoner.

Trayes wrote this in a topic. I think square should of went with something like this IMO.

I am sure no one cares what I think but I do not enjoy the dot summoner with lame pets. If i had to change the playstyle away from dots into something else it would look like this.

Ruin: 80 potency. Grants you and your pet a buff depending on what pet you have out.
(Ifrit: Grants the user and pet stacking buff that increases damage by 5%, stacks 2 times)
(Titan: Lowers damage taken by the user and the pet by 5% for 4 seconds. Does not stack)
(Garuda: Grants the user and the pet 3% spell speed. Stacks 4 times. Garuda gains double from this effect)

Ruin II: 80 potency. This spell and the pet do a special bonus attack.
(Ifrit: Apply a 15 potency dot for 18 seconds.) Both the player and the pet apply this dot.
(Titan: Gain health equal to damage dealt.) Both the player and the pet heal based on the damage of thier attack.
(Garuda: Deal half damage to all enemies near the target) Both the player and the pet do the aoe damage.)

Now these are just ideas of how I would have made the summoner feel closer to their pets while adding some depth to the overall playstyle of the summoner. Also this is me only changing 2 skills. I am sure I could give a huge list of ideas.

Like an aether flow spell that grants a party buff based on the summon out.
Garuda would buff move speed and spell speed
Titan would give everyone a small stone skin
Ifrit would add "Enfire" to all melee attacks

Or it could just pass whatever the Ruin 1 buff is to the party for a short time. Like 5 seconds. Everyone gains 10% damage or everyone takes 5% less damage or everyone casts faster. Who knows. But I would have tried to make more of a connection.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

The problem is people want this but fail to understand this is a MMO. FFXI had a lot of complaints that those summons where to big and annoying. The big ZOMG IFRIT summon is coming but it'll be a FC that summons them, not one single individual.

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I'm pretty sure no one at all is asking for that, and those that are, are silly. What people want is a compromise between 11 and this game. Clearly they can not be as big as they were in 11 but they can defiantly better then they are now. They are also complaining that the class feels to much like a WoW warlock since all you do is spam dot's and your pet is merely there for a few buffs to your character.

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Originally Posted by J_Burton

I'm pretty sure no one at all is asking for that, and those that are, are silly. What people want is a compromise between 11 and this game. Clearly they can not be as big as they were in 11 but they can defiantly better then they are now. They are also complaining that the class feels to much like a WoW warlock since all you do is spam dot's and your pet is merely there for a few buffs to your character.

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No...I'm pretty sure I saw that 3/4 of the thread is just crying about the summon looks.

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Originally Posted by Nemhy

No...I'm pretty sure I saw that 3/4 of the thread is just crying about the summon looks.

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I'm sorry but no they are not, go through and read the ENTIRE thread, there are literally 2, 2 people who ask for the egis to be the size they were in 11, the rest actually admit that is to big and not what they want. Yes there are complaints about how they look, because that is a factor but no one wants big animations and huge summons stomping around (except maybe when they use T3 LB.....j/k)

3/4 of this thread is actually mostly people coming in here and bashing people who are asking for the class just to be re looked. The rest is people trying to work out ideas of how to make the job design more interactive wit their pet. Hell one guy made a pretty good size post with his own ideas with possible ideas to re-work ruin.

And below me another example of people coming in here just to bash......

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Originally Posted by KingBerry

Go to the support desk in game and click contact us and click feedback. This is where we can show yoshi that summoner is suppose to be a SUMMONER and not a boring class that spams DoT.

Complain about the eggi design and size
Complain that the summoner is all about DoT and not his eggi
Complain why it should get an overhaul

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Lol look at you, getting all butthurt over your class. You knew what you were getting yourself into you lil spoil brat.

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Originally Posted by shinros

I wanted something like this. The pet needs to interact more with the summoner you are meant to be a team. When I talk to scholars they say they feel like a team with their fairy I don't get that with summoner. I feel like a dot spellcaster I tend to even forget the summoner is there.

Yes I think they should be re worked slightly the pets need to interact more with the summoner.

Trayes wrote this in a topic. I think square should of went with something like this IMO.

I am sure no one cares what I think but I do not enjoy the dot summoner with lame pets. If i had to change the playstyle away from dots into something else it would look like this.

Ruin: 80 potency. Grants you and your pet a buff depending on what pet you have out.
(Ifrit: Grants the user and pet stacking buff that increases damage by 5%, stacks 2 times)
(Titan: Lowers damage taken by the user and the pet by 5% for 4 seconds. Does not stack)
(Garuda: Grants the user and the pet 3% spell speed. Stacks 4 times. Garuda gains double from this effect)

Ruin II: 80 potency. This spell and the pet do a special bonus attack.
(Ifrit: Apply a 15 potency dot for 18 seconds.) Both the player and the pet apply this dot.
(Titan: Gain health equal to damage dealt.) Both the player and the pet heal based on the damage of thier attack.
(Garuda: Deal half damage to all enemies near the target) Both the player and the pet do the aoe damage.)

Now these are just ideas of how I would have made the summoner feel closer to their pets while adding some depth to the overall playstyle of the summoner. Also this is me only changing 2 skills. I am sure I could give a huge list of ideas.

Like an aether flow spell that grants a party buff based on the summon out.
Garuda would buff move speed and spell speed
Titan would give everyone a small stone skin
Ifrit would add "Enfire" to all melee attacks

Or it could just pass whatever the Ruin 1 buff is to the party for a short time. Like 5 seconds. Everyone gains 10% damage or everyone takes 5% less damage or everyone casts faster. Who knows. But I would have tried to make more of a connection.

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That was an interesting idea

If SE want to change to playstyle from DoT to something else they can change it to support DPS, a type of class that can synergy with the summon as well as whole party, maybe something like

Meltdown (replace Bio) -- Reduce enemy thrust, slash, and blunt resistance by x amount
as for summon
ifrit -- His move mostly do thrust or slash based attack
Titan -- his move mostly do blunt attack
Garuda -- his move mostly do slash attack

with this kind of synergy it was your summon that will do the killing job instead of summoner itself, and scholar also get benefit from this as it basically buffing up your party damage output.

and sustain is kind of useless (if i can swiftcast/recast it into existence why would i be bothered sacrificing my own hp ?) if your summon somehow got killed you only lost 8 second (3 second for swiftcast method) at worst in losing your DPS which is bad but tolerable. They should change it to "link" style like Tristan do

Aether Link -- replace sustain

Link yourself with your summon buffing up your summon as long as you're linked with your summon, the link will snap after you go past certain range. Additional effect : any damage/heal sufferd by you and your summon will be shared with proportion of x% of damage shared (for risk and return)

We can make an array of skillset for summoner and summon synergy/interaction without limit, but strangely SE never do such a thing, such corporation with resources within their department did they never thought any of that ? i would say they just cutting corners and that just SE being lazy

It feels really neat to get a permy pet for the summoner but feels really bad with their designs and the current pet system. >_<
It'd kinda be nice if Carbuncle wasn't replaced completely also and that he had some different functions (like a Reflect CD on target).

Overall I feel like the caster using DoTs is wonderful but lacks interaction with the pets in a fair amount of areas where it feels like it shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Merceus

It feels really neat to get a permy pet for the summoner but feels really bad with their designs and the current pet system. >_<
It'd kinda be nice if Carbuncle wasn't replaced completely also and that he had some different functions (like a Reflect CD on target).

Overall I feel like the caster using DoTs is wonderful but lacks interaction with the pets in a fair amount of areas where it feels like it shouldn't.

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Finally, someone addressing real issues and not just crying about the pet size. Yes I agree, majority of the pet's kits should be reworked and the GCD issue needs to be worked on with the pets. For Garuda you put her on obey and only manually cast Contagion to top off your combo...that's it now she's just another DoT basically. I wish the Egis has more party utility in their kits :/

Nemhy did you not miss my post on the last page? the pets need to interact more with the summoner right now they are just an auto attack turrent. With using contagion if its off CD.

Thank you Shinros and Nux. Both of you laid out clear ideas of change, and after reading both your posts I now see what you're looking for and what the issues are that you're wanting addressed. I would have replied yesterday but there's still a lock on post amounts...

Something else to consider, once we can summon the real primals as a group/FC, would you like there to have to be a summoner in the group or would you be ok with any group assortment being ok to summon the primals? (Lore wise it seems ok for there not to be a summoner but would welcome your opinion)

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Originally Posted by KingBerry

Complain about the eggi design and size
Complain that the summoner is all about DoT and not his eggi
Complain why it should get an overhaul

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I don't want to complain I like the way it is.

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Originally Posted by radstar88

I don't want to complain I like the way it is.

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Guessing you can't read if you replied in this thread with no complaints.

Sounds to me that people want a pet class more on the lines of the old Dark Ages of Camelot's Necromancer.

This is all from memory, so some details are off but,
The DAoC necro would summon an undead pet but when the pet was out the necro would become an invincible ghost. All spells and abilities had to be used through the pet. The necro was also tethered to the pet, not able to get too far from the pet or the pet would die and the necro would be at near death HP. point being, the necro did nothing, everything was the pet and the necro acting through the pet. The summoner could of been like this without the invincible ghost part, but its too late now.

I have a few ideas to make the summoner "more summoner-like" working with the arcanist base class.
Lets start with summoner abilities.


Summon III
Fester
Tri-Disaster
Spur
Enkindle

Well summon III, spur and enkindle all fit the bill of summoner. Could use some adjustments, but fit summoning. Fester, Tri-disaster and base class being a dot class is what seem people have issues with. So lets make this Dot thing make sense and fit summoning.

Lets change Fester first.
Let change the name to... Offering, Aether Tap, Power Rend or something like that.
Have it work like Fester but maybe lower damage, plus an addition effect of empowering your summon. The empowerment depends on the summon you have out and how many dots where on the target.

Logic behind this? You weaken your foe's essence and body with "dots" so you can rip aether from them and empower you summon with it. Your summon, being a primal in essence, is fueled by Aether and will be stronger with this extra stole power.

Now for Tri-Disaster. Honesty it is a lack luster CC ability that I've yet to use in a raid. So lets get rid of it. To replace it let continue with this Aether feeding thing.
How about Aether Link. Uses an Aetherflow to create a link between you and your summon. This link makes the summon abilities much stronger, but now have a mana cost... your mana.

Logic, you are giving your summon another source of Aether to fight with.

Though are some of my rough idea. Now the summoner has more to do with his summon. Think it would make fight like you fighting through your summon over with your summon.

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Originally Posted by ProphetMagnus

Something else to consider, once we can summon the real primals as a group/FC, would you like there to have to be a summoner in the group or would you be ok with any group assortment being ok to summon the primals? (Lore wise it seems ok for there not to be a summoner but would welcome your opinion)

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I'm kind of lost in that question, can you shed more light ?

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Originally Posted by Nux

I'm kind of lost in that question, can you shed more light ?

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Sorry, from the letter from the Procucers Yoshi has said that we'll be able to summon (either as a group or and a Free Company I'm not sure about) the full size Primals to perform their super moves (like when we used to summon them in ff1-9). I believe Yoshi called them roaming primals that a FC could acquire for a one time use (I tried searching a few letters but couldn't find it. Ill keep looking and if I find it ill edit the post).

My question was whether current summoners would feel put out if we were able to summon the primals without them being in our group?

I mentioned that it seems possible within the lore to do it without a summoner based on the beast tribes as they summon the primal by worshipping them... but wanted a summoners opinion on it.

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Originally Posted by ProphetMagnus

Sorry, from the letter from the Procucers Yoshi has said that we'll be able to summon (either as a group or and a Free Company I'm not sure about) the full size Primals to perform their super moves (like when we used to summon them in ff1-9). I believe Yoshi called them roaming primals that a FC could acquire for a one time use (I tried searching a few letters but couldn't find it. Ill keep looking and if I find it ill edit the post).

My question was whether current summoners would feel put out if we were able to summon the primals without them being in our group?

I mentioned that it seems possible within the lore to do it without a summoner based on the beast tribes as they summon the primal by worshipping them... but wanted a summoners opinion on it.

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Ah so that was what the question about, I've heard about the letters but have yet to see them personally

[Summoner - taken directly from FF XIV ARR Site]

The beast tribes of Eorzea worship and summon forth beings known as primals, among which are Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan. Yet what is a god to one man is a demon to another, for the city-states of Eorzea see these beings as a grave threat to their collective survival.
In times immemorial, there lived mages who had not only the power to summon the primals, but also the means to transmute the primals' essences, thus binding them to their will. Known simply as summoners, the existence of these men and women and their arcane art have been all but lost to the ages.

Lore wise (See the highlighted ones) we should have that ability from the start, and if it goes by what you said (the producers to be precise) by summoning the "real" primals without the presence of a summoner it will be like adding tons of salt to the wound. Will i agree ? hell no .... just look at it ..... they even manage to place some false ADS about summoner, its like im applying to become an IT Network specialist but all i was told to do was cleaning a broken computer .... would you accept that ? well no i might as well quit the job

I'm in the middle of re-rolling in case SE turns blind

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Originally Posted by Nux

In times immemorial, there lived mages who had not only the power to summon the primals,

Lore wise (See the highlighted ones) we should have that ability from the start, and if it goes by what you said (the producers to be precise) by summoning the "real" primals without the presence of a summoner it will be like adding tons of salt to the wound.

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Well to be honest, that's what I assumed the summoner job would be... Using other enfeebling and DoT magic to build up a damage meter (like a LB meter only solely for the SMN) and then when it's full they get to call the summon to perform one massive attack. So basically what they are in the single player games. However I do understand how this can't really work in an MMO setting.

I'm not a summoner myself (would like to eventually level it) but I can see how I'd be disappointed if I wasn't required to summon a full size primal in a group or FC. But personally I don't see SE putting in that requisite somehow...

The way the primal system works is that there will be a full sized primal roaming as a fate. The person who gets a gold medal in that fate gets an item with a time limit, this is the full size primal summon. The fc build the gauge up once its full the person who has the item has to use it within the time limit.

The primal is summoned and they do their signature attack the games weather changes to signify they have been used. Having a summoner class is not a requirement any class can do it.

I'm loss at words about the summoner, everything about it seems far from everything. The lore, The concept, the design, the system, everything. it looks like (for me) when in the production process SE have a set of "Job Description" card and then just shove it to any class that fit the bills as clueless as they are.

Hell .... even my friend who came over and tried the game for 3 days told me that the game was bad and SE is trying to ripping me off with a bad products for $15 and he even volunteered to click the cancel subscription for me (True story)