I like the market wards

The only thing I dislike about the wards is that it takes getting used to the search because there is no "By Name" text-input search function...you have to go through lots of sub-categories before you get to what you want.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

FFXI's AH was tedious, if you wanted a good deal you could be there for 30 mins bidding on one item, and lets not forget when you look at price history, it says the last price of somthing is 10k, you bid 10k, rejected, you bid 11k, rejected, you bid 15k rejected, etc etc, until you decide at say 50k that its way too expencive and decide against buying it.

Then you go back the next day to go through the same steps

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No idea what you were spending 30 mins bidding on things. you must have been bidding 10000gil 10001gil 10002gil...

And if something that has been selling for 10k isnt available for 10k, then you either pay more for it, farm the item yourself, or wait untill the supply outstrips demand again. Thats how an econemy works.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

As for getting the item instantly... I'm sorry, but I just find this to be a silly argument. "Oh no! I can't possibly be expected to actually move my character for a few seconds to pick up my item!" Those 15 seconds could have been spent killing a mob! Damn you SE for wasting 15 seconds of my time! I demand instant satisfaction since those 15 seconds are very important to me!"

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Being able to buy what I want as fast as I can:

pros - I save save 15 seconds on every transaction.

cons - ???


Being able to buy what I want a little bit more slowly:

pros - ???

cons - I don't save 15 seconds on every transaction.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Being able to buy what I want as fast as I can:

pros - I save save 15 seconds on every transaction.

cons - ???


Being able to buy what I want a little bit more slowly:

pros - ???

cons - I don't save 15 seconds on every transaction.

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-Visiting a retainer allows sellers to potentially sell more product.

-Visiting the market wards allows you to see what other retainers (besides your target) are selling (since the NPCs "wear" the items).

-Visiting the markets make it feel more "real" and improves immersion.

Just because you think saving time is the only important thing doesn't mean that there aren't pros and cons. Sorry, your opinion is not the only one.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

-Visiting a retainer allows sellers to potentially sell more product.

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No it doesn't. Hardly anyone makes secondary purchases from a retainer, and even if a player did see another product on a retainer that he's interested in buying, he would first go back to the item search to make sure someone else isn't selling it for cheaper.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

-Visiting the market wards allows you to see what other retainers (besides your target) are selling (since the NPCs "wear" the items).

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Searching for the specific item I want enables me to do this faster and more efficiently. Being able to see all the items in my desired rank range at one time enables me to do this faster and more efficiently.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

-Visiting the markets make it feel more "real" and improves immersion.

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Subjective. One player's "realness" is another player's inconvenience and frustration. There are much more of the latter than the former.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Just because you think saving time is the only important thing doesn't mean that there aren't pros and cons.

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I didn't say it was the ONLY important thing. However, "saving time" is a concept that factors heavily into other concepts like "usability" and "convenience", which ultimately have a very large impact on the general area of "fun" and "enjoyment".

I also did list pros and cons in my post. I did not ignore them.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Sorry, your opinion is not the only one.

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I did not say it is. This statement also applies to yourself, FYI.


Besides, this is not an "either-or" argument. Just because you would be able to buy stuff directly from the item search, doesn't mean that you can't also physically visit the retainers if you wanted to.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

No it doesn't. Hardly anyone makes secondary purchases from a retainer, and even if a player did see another product on a retainer that he's interested in buying, he would first go back to the item search to make sure someone else isn't selling it for cheaper.

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This is a laughable response, I'm sorry. Please show me the data you've collected that proves that "hardly anyone" makes secondary purchases from a retainer. When you do that, you can make ridiculous claims like this.

But besides that, the potential for secondary sales is still a valid point and is still a pro, despite you not wanting to admit it.

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Searching for the specific item I want enables me to do this faster and more efficiently. Being able to see all the items in my desired rank range at one time enables me to do this faster and more efficiently.

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Actually, there is nothing faster than seeing an item out in the open. The point is, if you searched for one item, went to that retainer, then while moving through the MWs you see another item you're looking for, you can check it out.

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Subjective. One player's "realness" is another player's inconvenience and frustration. There are much more of the latter than the former.

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Of course it's subjective. Doesn't invalidate it as a possible benefit for players. Just because it's not a pro for you doesn't mean it's not valid. Also, you've fallen into the "unsupported statement" trap again. Please provide your data and evidence that there are more people interested in saving 15 seconds than players who like the realism of it.

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I didn't say it was the ONLY important thing. However, "saving time" is a concept that factors heavily into other concepts like "usability" and "convenience", which ultimately have a very large impact on the general area of "fun" and "enjoyment".

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It's the only aspect you really concentrate on, so you have implied that it's really the only important thing. Especially since it's the only pro you list.

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I also did list pros and cons in my post. I did not ignore them.

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That's bull. You list one pro and then ??? for the rest.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Hardly anyone makes secondary purchases from a retainer, and even if a player did see another product on a retainer that he's interested in buying, he would first go back to the item search to make sure someone else isn't selling it for cheaper.

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I respectfully beg to differ. More than once have I bought items from a retainer other than what I originally came for, without checking the other prices - that is if the item is properly priced.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

No it doesn't. Hardly anyone makes secondary purchases from a retainer, and even if a player did see another product on a retainer that he's interested in buying, he would first go back to the item search to make sure someone else isn't selling it for cheaper.


Searching for the specific item I want enables me to do this faster and more efficiently. Being able to see all the items in my desired rank range at one time enables me to do this faster and more efficiently.


Subjective. One player's "realness" is another player's inconvenience and frustration. There are much more of the latter than the former.




I didn't say it was the ONLY important thing. However, "saving time" is a concept that factors heavily into other concepts like "usability" and "convenience", which ultimately have a very large impact on the general area of "fun" and "enjoyment".

I also did list pros and cons in my post. I did not ignore them.



I did not say it is. This statement also applies to yourself, FYI.


Besides, this is not an "either-or" argument. Just because you would be able to buy stuff directly from the item search, doesn't mean that you can't also physically visit the retainers if you wanted to.

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The main problem here, is you set your criteria to "is it convenient" then judge based on that criteria.

Convenience is not the sole aspect of making a game entertaining, different people are entertained by different things. You want selling and buying items to be a very small very simple part of the game, its in the way of what you want to do so you want it to be short. However, this is not the case for everyone. Some people want to set up and maintain shops, they want to run around instead of standing at counter, They want to search for deals, see what people are offering.

If you apply your argument to travel you have, anima versus chocobo/airship, many people want chocobos and airships over anima, some want it in addition to. But one major difference is anima is not unlimited, if it was no one would have to walk anywhere (dunno if i mind that but ehhh). So by making this super shop, you eliminate all other forms of economy, and unfortunately make it much easier to manipulate the economy.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

This is a laughable response, I'm sorry. Please show me the data you've collected that proves that "hardly anyone" makes secondary purchases from a retainer. When you do that, you can make ridiculous claims like this.

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I have just as much hard data to base my "ridiculous claims" on as you do.

8 months of experience with this game from beta and talking about it with many of the people I encounter in game is what I use to assert my statements.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

But besides that, the potential for secondary sales is still a valid point and is still a pro, despite you not wanting to admit it.

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The only time there was a high chance of a secondary sale was back before we had item search. Back then, you were overjoyed when you finally found stuff for sale that you actually wanted, so you would buy it from that same retainer.

Now that we have item search, most people search for the item, buy from the cheapest retainer, search for the next item, buy from the cheapest retainer, etc.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Actually, there is nothing faster than seeing an item out in the open. The point is, if you searched for one item, went to that retainer, then while moving through the MWs you see another item you're looking for, you can check it out.

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Yes there is. You're not always gonna find the exact things you're looking for when browsing retainers at random. The item search has cut down seek times for everyone by a lot. Making items purchasable from the item search would cut down the retrieval time as well, making things even faster and more convenient.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Of course it's subjective. Doesn't invalidate it as a possible benefit for players. Just because it's not a pro for you doesn't mean it's not valid.

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Because it's subjective, we can't exactly examine the pros and cons in an objective manner, now can we? In order to do that, we must measure the objective pros and cons.

Therefore, if we want to do a fair and objective analysis so that we know how everyone will be equally affected, can't use subjective metrics in the analysis.

"saving 15 seconds" - objective metric. Same for all players and can be quantified.

"menus are faster to load then an instance full of NPC retainers" - also objective, this fact will be experienced similarly by all those with similar PC specs.

"menus are less likely to crash than an instanced ward full of NPC retainers" - objective, and the experience is shared exactly the same amongst all players.

"retainers add realism and immersion" - subjective and no way to truly know if this holds true for most or only some of the population.

"Visiting a retainer allows sellers to potentially sell more product." - no way of truly knowing unless you can record data on how many people make secondary purchases from a retainer besides the item they searched for vs. those who don't.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Also, you've fallen into the "unsupported statement" trap again. Please provide your data and evidence that there are more people interested in saving 15 seconds than players who like the realism of it.

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If I have fallen into any kind of "trap", all you've done is drag yourself into it as well. You have just as much hard data as I do to support your subjective claims (which is why they're subjective) .

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

It's the only aspect you really concentrate on, so you have implied that it's really the only important thing. Especially since it's the only pro you list.

That's bull. You list one pro and then ??? for the rest.

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Let's go back to the original statement of yours that I was analyzing, shall we?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

As for getting the item instantly... I'm sorry, but I just find this to be a silly argument. "Oh no! I can't possibly be expected to actually move my character for a few seconds to pick up my item!" Those 15 seconds could have been spent killing a mob! Damn you SE for wasting 15 seconds of my time! I demand instant satisfaction since those 15 seconds are very important to me!"

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This is a very simple statement with very simple parameters. You comment on the ability to purchase an item instantly, and give, as you yourself said, the benefit of saving 15 seconds.

Due to this very simple scenario, this is the only objective fact we can take from it, and thus it should be considered heavily. It's an argument for saving time vs. not saving time. Hence, my response:

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Being able to buy what I want as fast as I can:

pros - I save save 15 seconds on every transaction.

cons - ???


Being able to buy what I want a little bit more slowly:

pros - ???

cons - I don't save 15 seconds on every transaction.

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Ceteris paribus, saving 15 seconds of time is better than not saving 15 seconds of time, unless it is somehow not beneficial to the player to save time.

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Originally Posted by Leowilde

I respectfully beg to differ. More than once have I bought items from a retainer other than what I originally came for, without checking the other prices - that is if the item is properly priced.

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The point of the matter was not if this activity occurs at all. It does happens from time to time. However, how many times does this happen vs. all the times you buy something right after searching for it? Hardly ever, by comparison.

Renta, your only measuring time saved, in a game which is by design to pass time.
the key is to be entertained, so for you MW is not entertaining, the buying and selling process is not entertaining, so youd rather it be instant and almost non existant.

That is not the case for everyone.

by your argument, what you view as an objective one, which takes more time anima? or chocobo? does this mean anima and or teleporting is an inherently better travel system for a game? I dont think you would claim that.

Heres the thing, MW as more and more updates occur, and expansions, etc can get more and more entertaining. Better fancier wards, the best wards having special npcs, Improved search features, quests that improve your retainers selling ability. Advertisements, wards methods of contacting crafters, etc.

The type of AH you want basically is a very convienent database with items, that you click instantly and get the item, it has no potential as a game mechanic to increase entertainment, and if it has no real downsides, will destroy other systems which could actually make the game more entertaining.

Far as buying on impulse, it happens a lot of the time, when you know what your buying, and have an idea what it costs, if you see an item at a price you deem worth it, your probably just going to buy it. Not everyone is a penny pincher, Otherwise nobody would pay for the convience of an AH, when all it does is save you time (like buying without searching saves you time)

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Originally Posted by Physic

The main problem here, is you set your criteria to "is it convenient" then judge based on that criteria.

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Well, call me crazy, but "is it convenient" is a pretty good measure of quality.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Convenience is not the sole aspect of making a game entertaining, different people are entertained by different things.

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I'm not sure if that's what you really mean, but it sounds like you're implying that some people derive entertainment from inconvenience. For most people, inconvenience isn't fun.

This is why "convenience stores" like Seven-Eleven are so popular, and the guy who invented the "inconvenience store" is now bankrupt.

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Originally Posted by Physic

You want selling and buying items to be a very small very simple part of the game, its in the way of what you want to do so you want it to be short.

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No, I didn't say I want economic activity to be "very small and very simple". I want buying and selling to be deep, complex, and heavily rewarding for those who choose to participate in it. What I did say, was that I want the act of buying and selling to be fast and convenient.

That way, I can spend more time doing the actual buying and selling, rather than spending a lot of my time walking, waiting, loading, and searching.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Some people want to set up and maintain shops, they want to run around instead of standing at counter, They want to search for deals, see what people are offering.

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Sure some people want to run around, but not most people. You can search for deals from the item search menu.

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Originally Posted by Physic

So by making this super shop, you eliminate all other forms of economy, and unfortunately make it much easier to manipulate the economy.

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We all aim to manipulate the economy when we participate in it. That's what we're supposed to do. If you're talking about exploiting the economy, that has more to do with the flaws in the game's fundamental mechanics rather than the buying/selling interface.

Having more information and functionality available to the player via such a "super shop" or whatever you want to call it is not a bad thing. This is one of the reasons why they are finally merging all the different towns' auction houses in FF11.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

This is why "convenience stores" like Seven-Eleven are so popular, and the guy who invented the "inconvenience store" is now bankrupt.

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Effin hilarious... :)

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Originally Posted by Physic

Renta, your only measuring time saved, in a game which is by design to pass time.

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Pass time, not waste it.

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Originally Posted by Physic

the key is to be entertained, so for you MW is not entertaining, the buying and selling process is not entertaining, so youd rather it be instant and almost non existant.

That is not the case for everyone.

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Which is also the reason why so many people refuse to participate fully, or even at all, in the economy, and then eventually quitting.

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Originally Posted by Physic

by your argument, what you view as an objective one, which takes more time anima? or chocobo? does this mean anima and or teleporting is an inherently better travel system for a game?

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The convenience of teleportation is balanced by the anima cost. You can't teleport around the world forever. Chocobos are an alternative to transportation and has its own benefits and costs. The two can coexist, just as having retainers and being able to purchase items through the search menu.

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Originally Posted by Physic

The type of AH you want basically is a very convienent database with items, that you click instantly and get the item, it has no potential as a game mechanic to increase entertainment, and if it has no real downsides, will destroy other systems which could actually make the game more entertaining.

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I still want the retainers, I don't want to eliminate them. I just want an easier and more convenient path to getting the stuff I want to buy.

As of right now, the market wards are a liability - it is one of the reasons why the game has so few people playing at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Well, call me crazy, but "is it convenient" is a pretty good measure of quality.

I'm not sure if that's what you really mean, but it sounds like you're implying that some people derive entertainment from inconvenience. For most people, inconvenience isn't fun.

This is why "convenience stores" like Seven-Eleven are so popular, and the guy who invented the "inconvenience store" is now bankrupt.

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Yea......... I'm gonna have to go with Renta on this. Plus, that last line was so funny yet so tragically true.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Well, call me crazy, but "is it convenient" is a pretty good measure of quality.



I'm not sure if that's what you really mean, but it sounds like you're implying that some people derive entertainment from inconvenience. For most people, inconvenience isn't fun.

This is why "convenience stores" like Seven-Eleven are so popular, and the guy who invented the "inconvenience store" is now bankrupt.



No, I didn't say I want economic activity to be "very small and very simple". I want buying and selling to be deep, complex, and heavily rewarding for those who choose to participate in it. What I did say, was that I want the act of buying and selling to be fast and convenient.

That way, I can spend more time doing the actual buying and selling, rather than spending a lot of my time walking, waiting, loading, and searching.



Sure some people want to run around, but not most people. You can search for deals from the item search menu.



We all aim to manipulate the economy when we participate in it. That's what we're supposed to do. If you're talking about exploiting the economy, that has more to do with the flaws in the game's fundamental mechanics rather than the buying/selling interface.

Having more information and functionality available to the player via such a "super shop" or whatever you want to call it is not a bad thing. This is one of the reasons why they are finally merging all the different towns' auction houses in FF11.

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Yeah 7/11 makes a lot of money, funnily enough its not where i find the best prices at all, in fact its usually more expensive than other alternatives. It competes by being open longer, closer to home, and through marketing. What yall want AH to be is the perfect store, location is irrelevant, because your items instantly appear before you, pricing tells you every price of every competitor so your price is always the lowest. If this type of store existed, irl, all the merchants would burn it down, or move to another country. As a seller of wares its a nightmare, your prices are always going to go down, until its not worth it to even sell things anymore, only a handful of items would even be worth it to sell

Im not against making MW better, or even having an AH but it has to have some balance for the convenience, otherwise no one can compete, and the MW may as well cease to exist. Dont get me wrong im not saying MW is perfect, but i dont measure its worth in convenience only.

Basically im opposed to destroying the MW (wether actually erasing them or making them serve no purpose with developer created competition that no one can compete with) and having a price history,


And really most people quit before market wards had a search options

The market wards work well when you just need one item. However, if you're looking for an entire armor set or a lot of mats, then it just becomes annoying. I would personally like to have a more traditional AH where items can be easily sold and purchased. Not displaying previous sales could be a good way to keep the economy in check. I would also like the retainer system to be changed, it takes far to long to move items around between retainers and it ends up wasting people's time; they could be out there socializing, doing leves, killing stuff, etc.

I love the market wards! Since that we have a search function now,a AH would be obsolete!

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Originally Posted by Cxplorer

I love the market wards! Since that we have a search function now,a AH would be obsolete!

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Ahurrdurrrr