EXPLOIT: Amdapor Keep

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Originally Posted by _SaInT_

not a fkn exploit, stop whining and move on.

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Would you call it good game design, then? To have all those mobs just there to be avoided? Or are you only saying this because you want instant gratification and are afraid of things changing to actually make sense?

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Originally Posted by Rurushan

I don't think MMOs are for you. This is just basic design and does not specifically apply to FFXIV, whether I have been to its endgame or not. If it's BORING, thats one thing, but if its taking up your time, thats working as intended. You don't know what you're getting into if after the 5th or 6th run of the same dungeon you start complaining.

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I feel as if you might not have played the other Final Fantasy MMO either

Speedruns, or "Sac" pulling is a "norm" in the realm of FF MMO's. Now I agree with you that skipping everything is a little questionable, but how about they give us a reason to kill the trash mobs, not just using "time" as a reason.

For instance, make them drop gil (very small increments), items to turn in for gear (nothing great, maybe?) or atleast a little incentive to spend the minute or so to kill them. Otherwise people are just going to speed past them

If you did play FFXI, take Dynamis, or Limbus for example. Trash mobs dropped pieces of currency, or just random objects that at the bare minimum put something in your loot pool.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

I feel as if you might not have played the other Final Fantasy MMO either

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Sorry, what I've described is basic design for GOOD mmos.

Edit: to respond to your edit:

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

I feel as if you might not have played the other Final Fantasy MMO either

Speedruns, or "Sac" pulling is a "norm" in the realm of FF MMO's. Now I agree with you that skipping everything is a little questionable, but how about they give us a reason to kill the trash mobs, not just using "time" as a reason.

For instance, make them drop gil (very small increments), items to turn in for gear (nothing great, maybe?) or atleast a little incentive to spend the minute or so to kill them. Otherwise people are just going to speed past them

Assuming you played FFXI, take Dynamis, or Limbus for example. Trash mobs dropped pieces of currency, or just random objects that at the bare minimum put something in your loot pool.

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Well thats what I said. The people crying about this not being an exploit are afraid of it changing because they feel its taking too long. It was flawed in FF11 and its still flawed here. The fix for it is not as simple as implementing a way to force the players to kill everything and I really HOPE that if they DO decide to force players to kill everything, there needs to be incentive to kill them. Unique currency or drops that only enemies from this dungeon can drop, daily quests even that reward you for killing them, increased gil. It's my understanding that besides it taking 'too long' to kill them, they aren't WORTH that time in the player's minds. Some more incentive without rewarding the player TOO much for it would go a long way.

Anybody that knows about gaming knows that there's give and take in all decisions made / Tank pull like that has an advantage and a disadvantage but how in the world is it an exploit? When I get agro, from a random mob outside of dungeons, I simply run away and loose agro. Is that an exploit? I simply used a mechanic to drop agro and reset a mob and bypassed the intention of my fighting it. If I pull agro in a dungeon and run to the exit before the mob gets me, is that an exploit? I simply avoided combat by escaping. I can on with all sorts of examples but it bothers me that the guy who first posted this is some sort of untrustworthy sore person who seems to think the world isn't fair is on a mission to make it fair for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Rurushan

Sorry, what I've described is basic design for GOOD mmos.

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Opinion =/= Fact

In the meantime, how about you go level up past 20 and come back to us when you aren't wet behind your ears and debate this further.

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Originally Posted by Rurushan

Well thats what I said. The people crying about this not being an exploit are afraid of it changing because they feel its taking too long. It was flawed in FF11 and its still flawed here. The fix for it is not as simple as implementing a way to force the players to kill everything and I really HOPE that if they DO decide to force players to kill everything, there needs to be incentive to kill them. Unique currency or drops that only enemies from this dungeon can drop, daily quests even that reward you for killing them, increased gil. It's my understanding that besides it taking 'too long' to kill them, they aren't WORTH that time in the player's minds. Some more incentive without rewarding the player TOO much for it would go a long way.

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by PrimaDonna

Anybody that knows about gaming knows that there's give and take in all decisions made / Tank pull like that has an advantage and a disadvantage but how in the world is it an exploit? When I get agro, from a random mob outside of dungeons, I simply run away and loose agro. Is that an exploit? I simply used a mechanic to drop agro and reset a mob and bypassed the intention of my fighting it. If I pull agro in a dungeon and run to the exit before the mob gets me, is that an exploit? I simply avoided combat by escaping. I can on with all sorts of examples but it bothers me that the guy who first posted this is some sort of untrustworthy sore person who seems to think the world isn't fair is on a mission to make it fair for everyone.

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Are you quite aware of what you are saying?

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

Opinion =/= Fact

In the meantime, how about you go level up past 20 and come back to us when you aren't wet behind your ears and debate this further.

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Whether or not I like a game is indeed an opinion. Sales are fact, however, and thats what I was talking about. FF11 was successful in its own right though, don't get me wrong. Naturally though if you only know Final Fantasy and nothing else then yeah I guess it must have been really good.

Edit: Oh, and I'll level up when I can log in and play ;o;

eh I've played other games where the tank just run past all trash mobs to get to objectives then either run out of their range to reset aggro or die. It's nothing new.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

eh I've played other games where the tank just run past all trash mobs to get to objectives then either run out of their range to reset aggro or die. It's nothing new.

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But that doesn't make it right. Why do we accept such standards instead of striving for anything better? Its not good game design if players are skipping through content just to get to what is 'important' to them. Everything in-between should have some reasonable value to the player to keep things more interesting and less boring for time invested.

Keep is hard pose to be and I'm a blm so it's even harder to clear. If you want to exp pick another dungeon. This is for advancing rank and getting items.

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Originally Posted by Rurushan

But that doesn't make it right. Why do we accept such standards instead of striving for anything better? Its not good game design if players are skipping through content just to get to what is 'important' to them. Everything in-between should have some reasonable value to the player to keep things more interesting and less boring for time invested.

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ya it doesn't make it right but also it doesn't make it wrong

A lot of you are commenting on what the developers intent are for dungeons. Do you see one post by a developer on this thread or any other by that matter. You don't so please stop guessing what their intent is. I have done full clears and fast clears in this dungeon. Quite a few times when I was attempting to fast clear with the group they couldn't get passed the first or second boss. It would have sucked to do a full clear and find out that out. I will let SE decide about this and adjust accordingly until then I will play how the group I join wants to play. I am a ranged dps I don't get a instant group I have to wait an hour or two sometimes. I'm sorry if you feel this is ruining the game but let SE decide.

They could put all the mandatory trash they want if they remove those pointless timers on everything. It would be nice if they added something worth having on the trash mobs. Maybe give bonus tombstones for killing all the trash in the place?

I already dropped one game for not fixing trash running in their instances. I'd really like to not have to drop another.

Give every mob a 10% chance to drop a tombstone, in staid of 10% chance to drop 1 gil and you`ll see a change.

they are trash mobs, of course people are gonna skip them if possible. Not to mention it takes 45 minutes to an hour to get into the dungeon. I'd personally like to skip trash If possible so I can get out and wait forever to get back in.

If a tank can't handle the mobs and makes the group unable to skip is it still an exploit or is it a privilege to one that can?

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Or, simply have the mobs add the entire party to the enmity list rather than just the one person that aggrod the group.
It's an instance so MPKing is kind of a non-issue.
Much like gear swapping in combat wasn't an intended tactic in XI, it was an exploit (a means for players to do something that was not originally intended by the design team) but it was one that spread too far and too fast to be fixed. This has not, sac pulling doesn't need to become a 'rule' yet, and if fixed early, then it can doesn't have to become one.

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how was gear swapping not intended in 11? i used to do it all the time on my summoner... different gear for different summons

Honestly, the most frustrating part is that no one does AK without this method. You can't get into a DF run that doesn't want to "speed run" it. I'm okay with speedrunning (actually prefer it in Wanderer's palace), but sometimes I just want a nice, normal run.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Honestly, the most frustrating part is that no one does AK without this method. You can't get into a DF run that doesn't want to "speed run" it. I'm okay with speedrunning (actually prefer it in Wanderer's palace), but sometimes I just want a nice, normal run.

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I done three runs yesterday full clear and about five fast so it's not the only way the dungeon is being run.

All I have to say is how is it an exploit? Ever play WoW? Then I guess full parties of druids or druid/rogue mix should all be reported to blizz for skipping mobs in instances... or in FF11 using sneak and invis on whole party to skip trash. I will admit as of mists for WoW, there are dungeons where you need to fight trash in order to summon/fight a boss but go back to any previous expansion and alot of instances, with the right party set up, you can ignore all the trash and even some useless bosses.. Utgarde Pinnacle is a prime example. I can skip 2 boss in that instance and numerous other instances, but I guess they are all exploits... For 1.0 AV and CC tons of mobs were skipped. I used to do it in parties too... Especially AV where you get a dot on you for the whole fricken instance.

I wrote ticket to support and this was the answer:

"Greetings,

Thank you for contacting FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn support.
Thank you for wanting to make sure you are not exploiting our systems.

As of now there have been no official announcements that this problem is counted as an exploit. However this does not mean that it will not be counted as one in the future.

We would therefore ask you to be cautious and not try to use it in the meantime.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter and we wish you a very nice day.
Kind regards,

The FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn GM team"

Theres your answer, now stop fighting.

While it may not be an exploit it shouldn't be done like this, you put trash mob in there that needs the be fought before you get to the boss, If everyone does speedruns then no other dungeons will be done anymore simply cause this is the best and fastest way.

I'm on the fence regarding things like this.Is it or isn't it? I'm leaning more towards it is, since people are using this method as a way to farm gear faster, exploiting mechanics to gain an upper hand over other players who wish to stay legit. It's not a huge issue but something which I very much disagree with.

The repercussions of this though will harm others, you will get elitist type players calling you noob and throwing insults at you if you choose to kill everything.This then causes people to stop playing their role or stop playing all together. It will then be a downward slope as people find more and more ways to "exploit" game mechanics to their advantage while bullying those who choose to do it the "hard" way. For me, it should be fixed to keep the game neutral and fair across the board. Just my 2 cents.

Then again, if they change the mechanics right now, people who havent had the chance to do this so called fast run will probably rage and cry because it is unfair that others gets to do it.

Specially now that se is still having problems with their log ins and servers.

Are you serious? wow........ what a dork.

OP and people who agree probably can't speed run the dungeon themselves so they must ruin other's ability to do so.

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Originally Posted by Eijii

OP and people who agree probably can't speed run the dungeon themselves so they must ruin other's ability to do so.

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In actual fact it is your type that are ruining it for the rest of us. May I point your attention to another thread on the issue, where people actually leave because the tank is new!?!?! he gets laughed at and everything because he doesn't know the "speed run", fair? no!!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ruin-this-game

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Originally Posted by animapain

In actual fact it is your type that are ruining it for the rest of us. May I point your attention to another thread on the issue, where people actually leave because the tank is new!?!?! he gets laughed at and everything because he doesn't know the "speed run", fair? no!!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ruin-this-game

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Since when was anything in this world "fair". If you don't want to use it find some like minded people and dont use it. Have some self control people. You don't have to use it just because it's an option.

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Originally Posted by Shael

Since when was anything in this world "fair". If you don't want to use it find some like minded people and dont use it. Have some self control people. You don't have to use it just because it's an option.

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Really? you're comparing real life to a video game? Video games are designed to be fair and equal, then it is the players skill at a certain thing that gives or takes away their advantage over the other. Exploiting a mechanic in the game is not a skill, it is an exploit to gain the upper hand over others. And of course we have to use it, now people know it's there, you either use it or get removed from the group. People wont be interested in doing the WHOLE dungeon when they know it can be done in less than half the time it would usually take.

This will cause a spiral effect and will filter down and cause people to find other ways to exploit the game, eventually making it a complete bore fest and will make the game pointless. Look at WoW, people founds every way they could to avoid doing something "harder" and eventually people left the game, people only sub when new content is released. They hammer that and complete that content within a week and then don't play until the next patch. I do not want this to go that way, if it does then I will have to leave because why should I invest my time into something while others are exploiting to get everything. Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by animapain

Just my opinion.

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Not really comparing it to real life so much as simply stating nothings really fair in general. People will always end up with some advantage in some way or another. Frankly the bosses are the interesting parts to the dungeon. Trash is exactly what the name suggests. Trash. I also gave you a viable alternative to DF and speed runs. It's up to you whether you make the choice to do it or not. People really gotta learn some self restraint. Just because an option is available does not mean you have to use it. If you tell yourself you have to thats just making an excuse.

Of course this is an exploit.

Easy way to pick an exploit is to just ask yourself, is it the way the devs intended it to work? running through mobs and then dying? I wouldn't think was the right way. Why did the devs put the mobs there if they intended you to just run to the end?

Man you got to let it go lol. These kind of people are not hard core players its the same kind like "lets do fates and hunting and blah blah" get easy XP level real fast. Granted this game is by far one of the easiest to level.

Just find a group ..people you know that wont be doing that and have fun. Same people that hit lvl 50 and ask.. there are voices in this game? HAHA no lie..

Not an exploit, tank gets abused, seems unfair ;3

Exploit or not, it's practically the only way people will run this dungeon. Unless you have really good friends in game.

You could skip it, but if you want to rank up in a grand company, you have to do it.

If SE wanted to do something about they should have done something by now.

All they really need to do is make it so you need to kill everything to continue, like Cutter's Cry.

i think they should fix it, but increase rewards for killing mobs. at the moment, it is just not rewarding. i mean...1gil per mob? are u serious?
why not put a few random drops and maybe some gc coins on them. Right now, killing trash is just a waste of time.

Make it so the mobs don't run back to starting locations. But slowly walk back to them like in pre2001 ff11

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Originally Posted by Eijii

OP and people who agree probably can't speed run the dungeon themselves so they must ruin other's ability to do so.

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huh? you make it sound soooo hard.....

The least they can do is adjust the amount of Gil dropped so it is worth killing trash. 1 Gil a mob justifies the skipping in repair costs. Regardless if it is what was intended or not.

The design is flawed in two ways:

1. There is no perceived reward for killing the trash mobs.
2. The incentive is to run the instance as quickly as possible, because it takes a massive amount of runs to achieve and collect any kind of tangible and relevant reward.

Personally, I think they should eliminate the ability to skip mobs, put rewards on trash that sell for gil to help with repairs... and up the reward for running the instance.

Running an instance multiple times to get a reward is one thing- running the instance 20,30, 40 times is just tedious. Skill has nothing to do with it, it becomes a ridiculous and boring repetitive task. If there were multiple instances to change it up a bit, that would make more sense... but requiring so many run of the same boring instance does nothing but clog duty finder and burn people out.

It would also be nice if the primals gave more tomes. I think getting 8 mans through primals is harder than speed runs thorugh AK.

This is a common tactic in many of the MMOs I've played. It is only broken if in by doing so (skipping the trash mobs) gives the players an unfair advantage over those who decide to kill the trash mobs. I'm assuming that aside from ~20 minutes saved there isn't much other benefit. :o)

Wow, i cant believe I really checked every posts on this thread. A lot of you make good points, wethet it's a "right" game mechanic or a "wrong" one.
I personnaly find it amusing how many take it personnally that people actually manage this. Saying you will quit a game because of something like this puts it in a thin minded way; let me explain I'm not trolling here. I've studied in gaming development and am working in it and there are lot of things players aren't aware.

First of all I'll admit a great majority of players are casual, yes they engrossed the game launch sales, yes, but in the whole balance many casual took the one character/30days, hardcore took 180 days right of the bat for 8 char/servers plus collectors.It's not all facts, yes there are exceptions, but most of you can start adding the costs. Those hardcore will grind and grind, not the way some do or others, it's still legitimate they do it simply because they aren't breaking the whole content. Their myth tomes are capped at 300 on a weekly basis, that you clear them in a day and another guy/group/fc in 2 days doesnt change this fact. SE did put a restraint, it's there to limit hardcore a bit until 2,1 in 3months. (Some players still play games like Ultima right now and pay more just to keep it active, if you like a game money is no obstacle. A man pays 5000$ a month to stay top 10 on clash of clans is he exploiting? A player say yes, a sponsor/developper say no)!

Second, the boss are not exploitable and can't be bypassed, so linear progression isn't broken, that's correct.

Third, although trash mobs which we will call "mobs" don't fullfil their role as "mobs" and should be changed accordingly you are all right about this.

Finally, this dungeon attracts players, although not in its best way but still is in demand, who replays Sunken Temple of Quart for fun or Brayflox's Hideout? Nobody or almost. And these dungeons have no replayability, which makes them close to unsuccessful except they are linked to your main story quest... so...

We have goals : bosses who works.
We have rewards on a % drop rate.
We have a high replay dungeon.
Our large pool of big spending players advance and are happy to get gear.

As a sponsor, I'd be happy.
There is no hate in what I'm saying, I just barely show you what are some most common ways Dev Team can look at a situation. They ll side with big spenders, its sad but real. Will they get micro transaction in? If yes youll see who got the long side of the stick in this and its not casual gamers trust me.

Right now i really wish everyone knows SE have to continue to fix server stability and duty finder cross server efficiency before fixing this matter, theres nothing THAT game breaking here. And to the guy who reported this matter the SE, since when you sended your tickets? Mine havent been answered on many other more important bugs... not sure if this is a real answer.

OH! And besides... End gear isnt in the game yet, its in Bahamuts Coil and its locked until 2.1 in 3 months. Until then anybody can go their own way to be attuned, the real challenge is yet to come and YoshiP game producer and director gave players this challenge, so everyone can make it till then speedy or not/ hardcore or casual. See you on Eorzea!