The Direction of FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

90% of players Have the icon on.
10% have it off

8 players in a party doing a NM

1 player have the "icon off"

He goes and get attack by 10 mobs and kill everyone.

his party kick him calls him a noob and everyone hate him.

No icon, no information for no one

Player get attack and kill everyone.

Everyone in party goes holy ???? what happen "10 mobs attack us from no where i guess they do link" oh well let's try again and kill them first.

So at the end there no point if you can turn it off if 90% would have it on.

I guess if you had it on you save 15-30min i don't really care at this point but why not make it so when you target a mob you see all the info not just have it out there 24.7 -.-

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In that case you live and learn, people b**** whenever someone screws up in a party.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

All this fuss over a fucking icon that you can toggle lol wow.



Yea I agree for the most part. I would like to know some answers about the direction. We still don't even know how jobs will be implemented or any other battle adjustments besides AA(which I hated they chose that route but meh).

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Going to repeat that toggling has nothing to do with the issue, since it's the kind of player that the feature caters to and sets the tone of the game as that is the real concern.

Only bad players need agro icons telling them things they should either already know or know they don't know and thus act accordingly. If you give them agro icons, you're telling a lot of players you're catering to bad players.

Bad players have no concept of knowing what they don't know.
If you don't know it agroes, the good player assumes it does and either asks or tests in a safe manner.
The bad player dies and cries.

Toggling does not make this okay. Agro icon players are bad players to us. They don't pay attention. They don't think. They don't remember. They don't learn. They require being told. Suffering bad players by molding the game around them alienates the players who are mindful and proficient enough in ANY mmo field not to die like a noob.

Mind telling me the name of this MMORPG you've played before where everyone was awesome and a skilled player due to the "harsh" conditions of the game?

This is a serious question.

Godspeed elitist. Godspeed
/facepalm

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

In that case you live and learn, people b**** whenever someone screws up in a party.

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Thing is those people will have an advantage over you, also it will degrade your liability in a party, if you party with them again. His, lyn, and mine point is, the people that want it off are screwed no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Going to repeat that toggling has nothing to do with the issue, since it's the kind of player that the feature caters to and sets the tone of the game as that is the real concern.

Toggling does not make this okay. Agro icon players are bad players to us. They don't pay attention. They don't think. They don't remember. They don't learn. They require being told. Suffering bad players by molding the game around them alienates the players who are mindful and proficient enough in ANY mmo field not to die like a noob.

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I am afraid their money is as good as yours.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Thing is those people will have an advantage over you, also it will degrade your liability in a party, if you party with them again. His, lyn, and mine point is, the people that want it off are screwed no matter what.

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You're not screwed, in that example the guy that has the icon off knows those mobs aggro now so when gets into another party, tackles that same NM, he won't make the same mistake again or shouldn't by Peregrine's logic, since people that have the icon off are smarter than those that have the icon on.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Thing is those people will have an advantage over you, also it will degrade your liability in a party, if you party with them again. His, lyn, and mine point is, the people that want it off are screwed no matter what.

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Depend of you playing style. I like exploration so I'm visiting the area before being at the right rank to fight there. As a result I've learn what monster were aggressive way before partying there. Also most aggressive monster look aggressive(i know it's not always true) so the situation were you get your party kill by rushing in aggressive monsters is not something that will happen often. Aggressive monster killing you because you didn't knew they were aggressive is a one time surprise. Getting kill because you did not spot it happen way more often.

Personally that's why I'm waiting to see the new icon in-game. I don't care about knowing it's aggressive because that's a one time surprise. However I only want to see the icon if i spot the monster and not spot the monster because of the icon.(Not sure if I'm really clear ^^; ) The icon is just suppose to tell you if it's aggressive in case you didn't know and not to make sure that you notice the monster. So if it's too intrusive, i'll turn it off, otherwise, i don't care.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Going to repeat that toggling has nothing to do with the issue, since it's the kind of player that the feature caters to and sets the tone of the game as that is the real concern.

Only bad players need agro icons telling them things they should either already know or know they don't know and thus act accordingly. If you give them agro icons, you're telling a lot of players you're catering to bad players.

Bad players have no concept of knowing what they don't know.
If you don't know it agroes, the good player assumes it does and either asks or tests in a safe manner.
The bad player dies and cries.

Toggling does not make this okay. Agro icon players are bad players to us. They don't pay attention. They don't think. They don't remember. They don't learn. They require being told. Suffering bad players by molding the game around them alienates the players who are mindful and proficient enough in ANY mmo field not to die like a noob.

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Peregrine as radical as I think you are taking this I can understand where your coming from. I just don't see the icon serious enough to complain about it. I feel adding AA holds more ground for an argument then some icon that will only stop people from going to wiki. You throw your opinions around almost trying to force them on people while bashing those that don't agree. That is what I disagree with but not enough to dispute it which is why I didn't quote you(or any others against the icon) in the other post.

don't forget the situation where you find a non-aggressive mob, and then find another of the same family
aggressive :D like crawlers

How the hell can anyone endorse an aggro indicator? With the exception of like two mobs, every aggressive monster looks like it will kill you. An aggro indicator is utterly redundant and pandering and as Peregrine said, it sets the tone for the game. Do you think Frodo and Sam needed aggro indicators on their journey to tell whether a goblin was going to attack them? No, they just used their native common sense. And it's not like it takes a lot of it.

I mean, honestly.

And regardless of what the aggro indicator achieves, the issue is more about what it stands for on the whole. It basically says "this is no longer a game about adventure and discovery; it's a game about ferrying you from point A to B in the most pandering and easy way possible."

Carebears are the worst type of people to cater to, because all they do is wreck everything for everyone else. How fun would chess be if you knew when a knight was going to take you because every time you lined up your piece, the most repulsive red symbol this side of China reared its ugly head and said "to hell with beauty and achievements, this is about making the game more casual friendly".

There are 'challenges to playing a game' and then there is 'playing a challenging game'. SE is so confused about which is which.

Ugh, Tanaka, save usssssss!

love the aggro icon

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Ugh, Tanaka, save us!

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Go to XI, he's still there.

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Originally Posted by Randis

love the aggro icon

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Dude, that gas bomb is a scam. I've seen them much cheaper.

Yeah, frodo and sam used a lot of common sense to enter in the shelob's lair /trollface.
Also, this is getting old. You don't like it, don't use it. Carebears will use it and possibily your entire party don't wipe for that.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Go to XI, he's still there.

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I would if FFXI wasnt a P.O.S

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

Yeah, frodo and sam used a lot of common sense to enter in the shelob's lair /trollface.
Also, this is getting old. You don't like it, don't use it. Carebears will use it and possibily your entire party don't wipe for that.

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The people who use it will ruin the experience for the people who don't use it.....

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

How the hell can anyone endorse an aggro indicator? With the exception of like two mobs, every aggressive monster looks like it will kill you. An aggro indicator is utterly redundant and pandering and as Peregrine said, it sets the tone for the game. Do you think Frodo and Sam needed aggro indicators on their journey to tell whether a goblin was going to attack them? No, they just used their native common sense. And it's not like it takes a lot of it.

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That's the same reason why I endorse it. It barely change anything and they're going to make it possible to turn it off. So I don't see the point of being against it.

As for what it stands for on the whole, I'm a bit worry about that too but just an aggro icon is far from enough to go in panic mode. Unless a lot of similar addition that have a lot of impact on the game(easier mobs, infinite anima, 0 death penalty, etc) are announced, i think it's too soon to be vocal about it.

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And regardless of what the aggro indicator achieves, the issue is more about what it stands for on the whole. It basically says "this is no longer a game about adventure and discovery; it's a game about ferrying you from point A to B in the most pandering and easy way possible."

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^Implying that:
-Being able to teleport from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world
-Having all enemies on a short leash which makes dying pretty hard if you know what you're doing
-Having 5 areas with no interesting landmarks or points of interest
-Having guildleves as the main source of experience points, which make the entire leveling experience routinary as you always visit the same camps and kill the same enemies

didn't already set this tone for the game, lol.

The fact that you chose to ignore the kind of public the game was made for since the very beginning doesn't mean that it's catering to the wrong people. I don't particularly agree with the casual nature of a lot of features in this game, but I knew exactly what I was doing when I chose to play it.

Threads like these go against the very core this game was made around, and I know that must be hard to understand for a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

Peregrine as radical as I think you are taking this I can understand where your coming from. I just don't see the icon serious enough to complain about it. I feel adding AA holds more ground for an argument then some icon that will only stop people from going to wiki. You throw your opinions around almost trying to force them on people while bashing those that don't agree. That is what I disagree with but not enough to dispute it which is why I didn't quote you(or any others against the icon) in the other post.

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They're a threat to the game. You have to aggressively beat them back into paying attention harder than they aggresively complain that they shouldn't have to.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

Yeah, frodo and sam used a lot of common sense to enter in the shelob's lair /trollface.
Also, this is getting old. You don't like it, don't use it. Carebears will use it and possibily your entire party don't wipe for that.

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Yeah, because that example is so relevant. Heaven forbid two ficitonal characters make a mistake in order to add conflict to a novel. Do you actually think that discredits anything I said, or do you just like wasting your time typing out pointless statements?

Regardless of whether there is a toggle, it's beside the point. SE has chosen this direction of making the game less and less about adventure and intrige, and more and more about cold, sterile maths.

FFXIV's biggest fault was making guildleves simply because they flew in the face of MMO questing. They were story-deprived drivel that was so systematic that it almost seemed foolish to call them leve-quests. They were more like antiquests than anything.

It's amusing to see that SE has not learnt their lesson and continue to destroy the atmosphere of their world even more by introducing further systematic content such as aggro indicators etc.

It's laughable.

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Originally Posted by solracht

^Implying that:
-Being able to teleport from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world
-Having all enemies on a short leash which makes dying pretty hard if you know what you're doing
-Having 5 areas with no interesting landmarks or points of interest
-Having guildleves as the main source of experience points, which make the entire leveling experience routinary as you always visit the same camps and kill the same enemies

didn't already set this tone for the game, lol.

The fact that you chose to ignore the kind of public the game was made for since the very beginning doesn't mean that it's catering to the wrong people. I don't particularly agree with the casual nature of a lot of features in this game, but I knew exactly what I was doing when I chose to play it.

Threads like these go against the very core this game was made around, and I know that must be hard to understand for a lot of people.

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Ha, and your point is what?

Obviously those features didn't pan out for FFXIV did they? So let's introduce even more content of that ilk until the game is absolutely saturated, and maybe that will bring everyone back, right?

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

They're a threat to the game. You have to aggressively beat them back into paying attention harder than they aggresively complain that they shouldn't have to.

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Ok peregrine, this is too much. So much i would insult you.
Start over with your hate-elitism factory, continue with your trollling or whatever you doing, just shut up sometime

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Yeah, because that example is so relevant. Heaven forbid two ficitonal characters make a mistake in order to add conflict to a novel. Do you actually think that discredits anything I said, or do you just like wasting your time typing out pointless statements?

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the /trollface is there for a thing. Imagine what. also, for the same thing, even bringing inside a fictional character from a book in a videogame discussion is trivial

Also.

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Originally Posted by solracht

-Being able to teleport from anywhere in the world to anywhere in the world

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You still have travel to places the first time. An aggro indicator removes this "first time" experience for people by depriving them of the sense of wonder.

Further to the point, with the lack of content in FFXIV, such as transportation options, having no teleportation would have been an absolute disaster.

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-Having all enemies on a short leash which makes dying pretty hard if you know what you're doing

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If it's so hard to die, then why do you even need an aggro indicator? Having monsters on a short leash is much more natural than throwing a glowing red orb in your face. But I guess some people just dont have taste, no?

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-Having 5 areas with no interesting landmarks or points of interest

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There are many points of interest in Eorzea however repetetive the landscapes are for the most part.

And this is more of an issue to do with lack of content (such as more zones and ishguard) than of catering to carebears.

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-Having guildleves as the main source of experience points, which make the entire leveling experience routinary as you always visit the same camps and kill the same enemies
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As mentioned, this is FFXIV's downfall, so I dont know why you're encouraging more of the same.

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You still have travel to places the first time.

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It's true until you pay someone else to bring it there and attune with the crystal.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

the /trollface is there for thing. Imagine why. also, for the same thing, even bringing inside a fictional character from a book in a videogame discussion is trivial

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My point was about adventure and how an aggro indicator detracts from that. Lord of the Rings was an example of adventuring.

You threw an irrelevant analogy of the books back at me as though it implied anything, and it didn't. It just came across as being purely irrelevant.

Your /trollface was the only thing relevant about your post, illustrating the type of person who obviously wrote it.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

It's true until you pay someone else to bring it there and attune with the crystal.

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Of all the camps Ive been to, Brittlebark is the only one I never reached myself. While it is possible to teleport form area to area on the coat-tails of someone else while never experiencing the world first hand, I highly doubt it is common practice.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

As mentioned, this is FFXIV's downfall, so I dont know why you're encouraging more of the same.

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Bs. The game's downfall is that the developers don't control us well enough. Get rid of the mob grinding, enforce GL grinding, expand on the system. Achieve a better game experience.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Bs. The game's downfall is that the developers don't control us well enough. Get rid of the mob grinding, enforce GL grinding, expand on the system. Achieve a better game experience.

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Is it sad that I can't tell if you're doing a parody or not?

Some interesting posts and i do have agree with the main topic poster on some issues. I was a FFXI player for a longtime and it was tough at times i duoed with my husband and we did everything on our own it was tough and we only joined a endgame LS about 12 months before we left, everything we wanted we did more or less ourselves it was hard and frustrating but was great because we got really good gear etc from actually doing. The problem i have is with the way the game is going from Alpha yes it is casual friendly but they should not hold your hand or have no content so you have to log off because there is nothing to do. I don't like WOW or Aion not my cup of tea and the posts i am reading are trying take things from those games and them to this and it is not final fantasy in general it is horrible, i know this is not FFXI but for those who loved it and who came to the new game hoping some of that magic would be here and left, i am here in the hope that they take the good and add new ideas to make this a great game....been here for over a year now i may aswell stick it out.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

My point was about adventure and how an aggro indicator detracts from that. Lord of the Rings was an example of adventuring.

You threw an irrelevant analogy of the books back at me as though it implied anything, and it didn't. It just came across as being purely irrelevant.

Your /trollface was the only thing relevant about your post, illustrating the type of person who obviously wrote it.

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Thx for the insult.
Anyhow, you're compairing apples to oranges. It's quite oblius in a book fiction you can't see a dialog like "hold on, let me check if that dude is hostyle on my hud", since it need to be a plausible environement.
the same can't be for videogames, since you need to think how blend together a plausible environement WITH friendly commands, balance battle content, offering always better fights and quests.
Now, since FF XI, mmorpgs are more evoluted, and whatever you like it or no, aggro indicators near the name is a standard the facto. Deal with it.
And remember, if you're aiming to the wides audience you can have, a stupid icon is the lowest of your priorities. If SE would do another elitist mmorpg, then they could just redo ffxi with next gen graphic without abyssea, or else an hard-kicking game like could be demon's soul. but then don't expect huge profits

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Is it sad that I can't tell if you're doing a parody or not?

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Well, if you are the type that thinks "nerf" is always a bad thing and "freedom" should never be sacrificed for "control", no, that's not sad at all.

The more the developers can control how we play, the better they will be at developing and balancing the content for us. Yet if they let the "players choose", they can't control anything we do and are left to guess what we may or may not do. Trial and error is not what this game or any game needs.

I hated FFXI and I hate elitists. This is not about lording superiority over people and filtering out "bad" players from FFXI.

I am saying these hideous aggro indicators are depriving players of experiences (learning the environment, dangerous encounters, running for your lives). A safe game, whether the standard or not, is not necessarily condusive to a fun game. Convenience and immersion are at odds. Finding the right balance is the best you can do. An aggro indicator tips the balance and detracts from the atmosphere of the game.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Well, if you are the type that thinks "nerf" is always a bad thing and "freedom" should never be sacrificed for "control", no, that's not sad at all.

The more the developers can control how we play, the better they will be at developing and balancing the content for us. Yet if they let the "players choose", they can't control anything we do and are left to guess what we may or may not do. Trial and error is not what this game or any game needs.

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Oh, I was assuming you weren't a robot.

so far no one made a good agument on why aggro icons are easy. Just more blowing smoke up ones rear.
honestly most if not all FF games were linear, not much exploration and relied on random battle to progress the game. It also has turn based battle system. Zelda games were more for exploration. And so was elder scrolls.

if you hate the icon just turn it off. No one will hate you for it. Chances are by now ppl know what aggros. This is just making the game newbie friendly.
Also tanaka was the first to say ffxiv will be casualy friendly. And less tiome consuming, it just wasn't delivered and ppl complained it wasn't casually friendly enough. Now it gets more casualy friendly and ppl stll complain. We woulda had content by now if ppl was actually happy witrh the game.

If yiu don't like where this game is going, don;t play. You complaints are just insulting everyone. You have no valid argument against this direction.
The aggro icon is NOT making the game or exploration easier.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

I hated FFXI and I hate elitists. This is not about lording superiority over people and filtering out "bad" players from FFXI.

I am saying these hideous aggro indicators are depriving players of experiences (learning the environment, dangerous encounters, running for your lives). A safe game, whether the standard or not, is not necessarily condusive to a fun game. Convenience and immersion are at odds. Finding the right balance is the best you can do. An aggro indicator tips the balance and detracts from the atmosphere of the game.

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Well, the icons say their level and if aggro, not their effective streight. just look at imps: At your first encounter, with the icon you know they aggro and their level. you fight it, take in the face impish incantation: oneshotted. Or when fighting an eft, the second mob you know to don't stand in front of him.
That too is part of the learning progression.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

I hated FFXI and I hate elitists. This is not about lording superiority over people and filtering out "bad" players from FFXI.

I am saying these hideous aggro indicators are depriving players of experiences (learning the environment, dangerous encounters, running for your lives). A safe game, whether the standard or not, is not necessarily condusive to a fun game. Convenience and immersion are at odds. Finding the right balance is the best you can do. An aggro indicator tips the balance and detracts from the atmosphere of the game.

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and how does aggro icons do any of that? oh right it DON'T. You still gotta avoid the stupid stuff and run for you life if you aggro it. Aggro icons do not prevent aggro. Also fyi you know what REALLY made exploring safer chocobo's, sneak spell, sneak oil, invisible spell, invisible powder, a high level escort.

honestly the new icons are pretty tiny. And show level. Almost all rpg have similar stuff.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

so far no one made a good agument on why aggro icons are easy. Just more blowing smoke up ones rear.
honestly most if not all FF games were linear, not much exploration and relied on random battle to progress the game. It also has turn based battle system. Zelda games were more for exploration. And so was elder scrolls.

if you hate the icon just turn it off. No one will hate you for it. Chances are by now ppl know what aggros. This is just making the game newbie friendly.
Also tanaka was the first to say ffxiv will be casualy friendly. And less tiome consuming, it just wasn't delivered and ppl complained it wasn't casually friendly enough. Now it gets more casualy friendly and ppl stll complain. We woulda had content by now if ppl was actually happy witrh the game.

If yiu don't like where this game is going, don;t play. You complaints are just insulting everyone. You have no valid argument against this direction.
The aggro icon is NOT making the game or exploration easier.

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Hey kitkun, remember how you haven't actually played the game yet? Remember that?

Aggro-indicators deprive new players of meaningful experiences and sustains the complaints of Eorzea being too bland. Far and wide, people have slandered FFXIV for being boring. SE's response was to remove one element where there was a shred of excitement to be had.

honestly guys why the hell are you trying to make this game soly for elitists? why do you want a game to be so hard? Your gonna habew noobs in it no matter how hard. They will do stupid stuff and you will desoise them for it. How about grow a set and stop complaining about every lil thing. Maybe we will actually get content in the game. They can't add content if they have to keep adjusting the game to fit the elistist mindset. You guys can make the game hard if you truely want to

it called turn off names. Never partying (as it make leveling easier), never do a levequest, only walk around no running allowed (running makes traveling quicker) never teleport. These are some choises you got. If that is not good enough, then just quit mmo. Or go play everquest 2. They still sell the game too. I'm sorry but ppl who hate an icon are being overly rediculous. Maybe mmo are no longer your thing if you are so upset over a cosmetic feature that does nothing to ganeplay.

Tired of my post disappearring of the page lol

Sorry but it i had to post it again >.<