Necromancer: Discussion of the dead

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Originally Posted by Powercow

I really don't get what this obsession with adding necromancers is all about. It just seems to me that people want a class called "Necromancer" because they think it's cool to be the brooding goth guy.

There are much, much cooler class concepts that can be added, like Mathematician. That would be 100X more awesome and interesting than Necromancer.

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Thats your opinion that necro is not that cool. Other think different, they can add both. I myself find Mathematican very boring in Tactics far to overpowered. But im not saying dont add it i rather make everyone happy.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Thats your opinion that necro is not that cool. Other think different, they can add both. I myself find Mathematican very boring in Tactics far to overpowered. But im not saying dont add it i rather make everyone happy.

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What about Necromancer would be cool? I'm legitimately curious about that.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Are we talking about FFXIV still, or the movie Green Mile?

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Actually i havent seen the movie. /ashamed. But I am talking about people just saying, "nope it cant be dont nope nope nope." with no ways of backing it up. And i get little angry of it when people say there's no story to add it, when there is. The say it does fit in FF, when in fact its already there and does.

The funniest part is SE has everything they need to make necromancer with just the spells they took away in 1.0, minus all they have to do is add a summon undead line spell that ALL the need. Poison and Bio, Shadowsear or whatever it was called, Sacrifice, Drain, osmose. All those can be added to the Necros spell list you can leave the absorb spells and other dots to the other job. Literally The ONLY EFFORT SE need to use is making a new Pet line of Undead thats it the rest is All there.

In all honesty I want each job/class decision made carefully. It needs to fill a profound niche that is not already being filled.

Please, convince us what profound niche Necromancer will fill that already live or already designed jobs will not.

And I hope hybrid is not part of your explanation. If everyone is given special exceptions... nobody is. The laws of balance.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

What about Necromancer would be cool? I'm legitimately curious about that.

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Well its another Pet job that different from the Job that SE already has from 11 so its new.(ish beside ffv). It can possible be another healer job that isnt whm that i wouldnt mind play cause i hate whm. And personally I have always loved Necromancy in every single game that has offered it.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

In all honesty I want each job/class decision made carefully. It needs to fill a profound niche that is not already being filled.

Please, convince us what profound niche Necromancer will fill that already live or already designed jobs will not.

And I hope hybrid is not part of your explanation. If everyone is given special exceptions... nobody is. The laws of balance.

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Instead of Nukes like Blm and Whm it gets DoTs?

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Instead of Nukes like Blm and Whm it gets DoTs?

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This is the issue I was trying to point out, Arcanist has already been the focus group for dot based combat, and its summoner job.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

The funniest part is SE has everything they need to make necromancer with just the spells they took away in 1.0, minus all they have to do is add a summon undead line spell that ALL the need. Poison and Bio, Shadowsear or whatever it was called, Sacrifice, Drain, osmose. All those can be added to the Necros spell list you can leave the absorb spells and other dots to the other job. Literally The ONLY EFFORT SE need to use is making a new Pet line of Undead thats it the rest is All there.

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You are way, WAY oversimplifying the development process if you think that having ability concepts is the hard part of class design. That part is the easy part. Anybody on the forums could spend 5 minutes and come up with ability designs for a class; the hard part is implementing them and writing it into the story.

The only reason I'm opposed to Necromancers is because I would rather see the development team's time and efforts go into something either new and fresh for an MMO (like Mathematician) or something very iconic and with a playstyle we don't really have (like Thief or Ninja.) We're already getting a pet class with a wide variety of spells with Arcanist and Summoner, there's no reason to start clamoring for a second one right now.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Well its another Pet job that different from the Job that SE already has from 11 so its new.(ish beside ffv). It can possible be another healer job that isnt whm that i wouldnt mind play cause i hate whm. And personally I have always loved Necromancy in every single game that has offered it.

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So you want two pet classes immediately released one after another that are both going to be hybrid spellcasters? That seems like a giant waste of time and it would be insanely hard to make them diverse enough to be noticeable.

I think it's pretty cool idea! And it does fit in with the story. I read someone said it should only be for an enemy...c'mon. It's a video game. The programmers and creators make the rules. Limitations kill creativity.

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Originally Posted by valetarkus

Limitations kill creativity.

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Lack of balance kills quality. Its a double-edged sword.


Again Im not saying no, Im saying it needs a profound niche to fill. One not already reserved for another job.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

This is the issue I was trying to point out, Arcanist has already been the focus group for dot based combat, and its summoner job.

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Arcanist is going to be a Debuffer not a DoT class there is a difference.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Arcanist is going to be a Debuffer not a DoT class there is a difference.

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You could get in a big debate with a FFXI RDM with that statement.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

You are way, WAY oversimplifying the development process if you think that having ability concepts is the hard part of class design. That part is the easy part. Anybody on the forums could spend 5 minutes and come up with ability designs for a class; the hard part is implementing them and writing it into the story.

The only reason I'm opposed to Necromancers is because I would rather see the development team's time and efforts go into something either new and fresh for an MMO (like Mathematician) or something very iconic and with a playstyle we don't really have (like Thief or Ninja.) We're already getting a pet class with a wide variety of spells with Arcanist and Summoner, there's no reason to start clamoring for a second one right now.

So you want two pet classes immediately released one after another that are both going to be hybrid spellcasters? That seems like a giant waste of time and it would be insanely hard to make them diverse enough to be noticeable.

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Oh no i agree it shouldnt come out for a while but just to know if it was possible would be nice. And Mathematician was in Final fantasy Tactics so technically its not really all that new of an idea/class.

Oh! Some ideas on Undead and Hellish likeness to summon or raise up: Anima (C'mon who doesn't love Anima from FFX?) Cerberus, Diablos, Kjata, Hades, and of course any of the low level skeletons or ghosts would be expected. But mainly I wanna summon Anima.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

You could get in a big debate with a FFXI RDM with that statement.

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Well thats a good point to cause not Arcanist is the Debuffing job it even says it on the ARR site. So now Rdm needs to be redone over but that derailing so lets not dive into that i made a Lets talk about red mage post awhile back. But there were Dot debuffs for Blm but they dont have them in 14, and they were elemental. And instead of Dia poisonand Bio that rdm had in 11 it would have Bio and poison Dia is still up for grabs with another job.

You have White Mage and Black Mage. Paladin and Dark Knight (DRK not in FFXIV I know, yet) And you have summoner and it's opposite Necromancer. I feel like necromancer would just be The Summoners opposite. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Oh no i agree it shouldnt come out for a while but just to know if it was possible would be nice. And Mathematician was in Final fantasy Tactics so technically its not really all that new of an idea/class.

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You missed the "for an MMO" bit. Calculators in FFT were a weird and unique concept (and still are) for a single-player game, and they could be very interesting if done right in an MMO environment. At least they would be different.

Necromancers have been done to death (get it?) in RPGs. Really, aside from "they have ZOMBIES!" there hasn't been a good reason why we should have a Necromancer class over just about anything else.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

You missed the "for an MMO" bit. Calculators in FFT were a weird and unique concept (and still are) for a single-player game, and they could be very interesting if done right in an MMO environment. At least they would be different.

Necromancers have been done to death (get it?) in RPGs. Really, aside from "they have ZOMBIES!" there hasn't been a good reason why we should have a Necromancer class over just about anything else.

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Yes this is true i did miss that. But i never said they should come before other classes only that i hope they can make it. Other RPGs did use it just god forbid my favorite RPG series ever added it.

Ps Hell i want them to add Judge as a dual wielding sword, Enfeebling Tank job.That would be new and awesome

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Originally Posted by Powercow

What about Necromancer would be cool? I'm legitimately curious about that.

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To name a few cool necro abilities from Final Fantasy V, they have unique spells like Meltdown, Doomsday, and other abilities like Dark Flare.

The coolest thing of all is that there will finally be a job that can charm something other than animals like a BST, or summon forth primals like a SMN. This form of pet job will finally be unlocked. In other words, we'll finally have every available pet job in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

In all honesty I want each job/class decision made carefully. It needs to fill a profound niche that is not already being filled.

Please, convince us what profound niche Necromancer will fill that already live or already designed jobs will not.

And I hope hybrid is not part of your explanation. If everyone is given special exceptions... nobody is. The laws of balance.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Instead of Nukes like Blm and Whm it gets DoTs?

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Arcanist is going to be a Debuffer not a DoT class there is a difference.

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Really? then what does this official release imply?

http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/al...3666353665.jpg

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Yes this is true i did miss that. But i never said they should come before other classes only that i hope they can make it. Other RPGs did use it just god forbid my favorite RPG series ever added it.

Ps Hell i want them to add Judge as a dual wielding sword, Enfeebling Tank job.That would be new and awesome

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Well if we had a lot more classes (like FFXI) I'd be OK with adding in something like Necromancer. As it stands there's just too many missing iconic classes and too many interesting ideas to add in something that's redundant.

I'm not just picking on you or even the idea of Necromancers. This sort of thing is also what bugs me about people who want Corsair, a ranged DPS/buff class. I mean, we already have one. It's called BARD. It's also why Dark Knight, as people want it, seems redundant. A heavy plate class that uses a 2H weapon to land slow but powerful hits... like a Warrior, BUT WITH THE POISON SPELL! Heck even Thief, a positioning-oriented light melee class is taken up by Monks (and Dragoons, in a way) thanks to the combo system requiring you to be conscious about positioning. The only advantage Thief would actually have over Necromancer is that Thieves have played a HUGE role in the Final Fantasy series compared to Necromancers who have had really small cameos.
This is why I keep bringing up Mathematician (and I keep calling him that instead of Calculator because that's the name used in the survey a while back) as a good possible addition -- a positioning, distance-conscious DPS caster with odd geometric shapes for AOE? That would be badass.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Really? then what does this official release imply?

http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/al...3666353665.jpg

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Ok i didnt see that.But what if they only get a few Debuffs and not all of them, like they spill the Elemental wheel? Not saying that they wont get all of them but there could always be the chance that SE pulls that stuff again.

ok then once Summoner is released i can make a clearer choice of what Necro can have that summoner might not get.

Now the debate is getting back to the difference between what pre 1.18 cnj and pre 1.18 thm was. For me to answer your dilemma, we must ask ourselves why SE split skills like they did in the prep of BLM and WHM... and ultimately, whether a 4th caster class is really filling a void, or struggling to be relevant in an already satisfied branch of disciplines.

Perhaps there is still a niche for it to hold, but I sincerely doubt this is the ideal one.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Now the debate is getting back to the difference between what pre 1.18 cnj and pre 1.18 thm was. For me to answer your dilemma, we must ask ourselves why SE split skills like they did in the prep of BLM and WHM... and ultimately, whether a 4th caster class is really filling a void, or struggling to be relevant in an already satisfied branch of disciplines.

Perhaps there is still a niche for it to hold, but I sincerely doubt this is the ideal one.

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IMO most new jobs will most fall into that list. Why pick a Drk over a Drg?

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Originally Posted by Andrien

To name a few cool necro abilities from Final Fantasy V, they have unique spells like Meltdown, Doomsday, and other abilities like Dark Flare.

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Meltdown is a spell from FF6 and FF8. Doomsday is a black magic spell from FF9, and Dark Flare is just Flare that does dark elemental damage (and is more of a blue magic thing, since it's a skill that's been changed to a different form for one's own use). These are not necromancer abilities, these are DPS mage abilities, which would make them more of a Black Mage's turf than a Necromancer's.

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The coolest thing of all is that there will finally be a job that can charm something other than animals like a BST, or summon forth primals like a SMN. This form of pet job will finally be unlocked. In other words, we'll finally have every available pet job in FFXIV.

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I could go on about the booger monster or a simple mind-control guy with how FFXIV still wouldn't have all the pet classes, but that would just be mean. I will say this though: adding a class just so we can finish off the collection in the same way you might want a stamp to finish off your stamp collection is a very weak excuse for adding something.

edit - And I should point out before someone else gets it wrong: Necromancers were not in FFV. They were in FFV Advance, which came out in 2006, 6 years after FFIX did.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

IMO most new jobs will most fall into that list. Why pick a Drk over a Drg?

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I agree. Thats exactly why caution and balance needs to be in play when considering new additions.

One niche I see is for DoL, for a class capable of scavenging animals for crafting material. "Shepherd" has been thrown about many times, but we know too little to have a solid class design. Personally I prefer the names Scavenger or Skinner over that.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

I agree. Thats exactly why caution and balance needs to be in play when considering new additions.

One niche I see is for DoL, for a class capable of scavenging animals for crafting material. "Shepherd" has been thrown about many times, but we know too little to have a solid class design.

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I mean like i said before, they can give it the abilities they took away like shaodwsear and make that the 15 min, Scourge, and drain which are key magic for it.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Meltdown is a spell from FF6 and FF8. Doomsday is a black magic spell from FF9, and Dark Flare is just Flare that does dark elemental damage (and is more of a blue magic thing, since it's a skill that's been changed to a different form for one's own use). These are not necromancer abilities, these are DPS mage abilities, which would make them more of a Black Mage's turf than a Necromancer's.

I could go on about the booger monster or a simple mind-control guy with how FFXIV still wouldn't have all the pet classes, but that would just be mean. I will say this though: adding a class just so we can finish off the collection in the same way you might want a stamp to finish off your stamp collection is a very weak excuse for adding something.

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Do research before coming to a debate. I specially said FFV because those abilities belonged to Necromancer, even though that game also has BLM and the rest. [edit] FF8 and FF9 didn't really have a job system.

Your second statement. You're not just saying, you're down playing. Your excuse is far more weaker than you think. There is absolutely nothing in your second statement that could be considered valid.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

Do research before coming to a debate. I specially said FFV because those abilities belonged to Necromancer, even though that game also has BLM and the rest.

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Right, and those abilities could have simply been added to BLM and not hurt the game at all. They're not Necromancer abilities like you put it, they're black mage abilities that have been added to the necromancer class because they needed skills not already in the game to fill out that job.

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Your second statement. You're not just saying, you're down playing. Your excuse is far more weaker than you think. There is absolutely nothing in your second statement that could be considered valid.

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The reason you gave to add in Necromancer was so that it would complete the set. Classes aren't Pokemon cards, they should not be added in just so an arbitrary set of rules can be met. There are a LOT more pet class options than beast master, summoner, and necromancer. There's mind control and enslavement, there's morphing objects, crafting slaves, there's spirit-splitting for you or your enemy... the list goes on. Even if we added in Necromancer, it would not complete the set, not even close. Considering that one of your arguments about why Necromancer would be a good class is that it would complete this set, this is a fallacious argument.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

One niche I see is for DoL, for a class capable of scavenging animals for crafting material. "Shepherd" has been thrown about many times, but we know too little to have a solid class design. Personally I prefer the names Scavenger or Skinner over that.

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Well the reason Shepherd was thrown around so much is because back in the beta, an NPC mentioned them in the same breath as Goldsmiths and Botanists. There were also guild signs with antlers that were present in a few places, including hamlets out in Coerthas. Presumably this sign was for Shepherds.

http://zam.zamimg.com/images/4/3/43e...dcf3bdbc86.jpg

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Well the reason Shepherd was thrown around so much is because back in the beta, an NPC mentioned them in the same breath as Goldsmiths and Botanists. There were also guild signs with antlers that were present in a few places, including hamlets out in Coerthas. Presumably this sign was for Shepherds.

http://zam.zamimg.com/images/4/3/43e...dcf3bdbc86.jpg

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Thats exactly what I was referring to, yes.

If there were a job design I would love to see done with a community based effort, one which has a distinct niche to fill... it would be that one.

Of course, not in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Thats exactly what I was referring to, yes.

If there were a job design I would love to see done with a community based effort, one which has a distinct niche to fill... it would be that one.

Of course, not in this thread.

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Yeah this thread is getting derailed pretty hard, and I'm definitely not helping matters by responding to Andrien.

I always chuckled though at the thought of just heading out into La Noscea and shearing some random sheep herd like you would harvest from a tree or mine from a node. Hehe.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Right, and those abilities could have simply been added to BLM and not hurt the game at all. They're not Necromancer abilities like you put it, they're black mage abilities that have been added to the necromancer class because they needed skills not already in the game to fill out that job.

The reason you gave to add in Necromancer was so that it would complete the set. Classes aren't Pokemon cards, they should not be added in just so an arbitrary set of rules can be met. There are a LOT more pet class options than beast master, summoner, and necromancer. There's mind control and enslavement, there's morphing objects, crafting slaves, there's spirit-splitting for you or your enemy... the list goes on. Even if we added in Necromancer, it would not complete the set, not even close. Considering that one of your arguments about why Necromancer would be a good class is that it would complete this set, this is a fallacious argument.

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Are you telling me that BLM had spells like Doomsday, Dark Flare, Meltdown all in FF1, FF2, FF3, and in FF4 too? Stop with your speculations, because they're false.

I thought mind control fall into the BST category of charming animals. Morpher is not a pet job. They capture monsters and use their abilities as their own. That sounds like a Blue Mage to me. What the hell is a crafting slave? Are you even talking about Final Fantasy?

Again a weak attempt of just down playing.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

IMO most new jobs will most fall into that list. Why pick a Drk over a Drg?

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Because you like DRK more than DRG.... should be the only reason :/

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Originally Posted by Andrien

*stuff*

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I had this big post explaining everything to you but I realized it would simply fall on deaf ears. Please stop trying to use terms you don't understand, please do at least a modicum of research, and please play other games if you're having trouble comprehending basic ideas like morphing an object into a servant or crafting a slave.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Thats exactly what I was referring to, yes.

If there were a job design I would love to see done with a community based effort, one which has a distinct niche to fill... it would be that one.

Of course, not in this thread.

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Didn't the official website before the game was released mention them as well?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Didn't the official website before the game was released mention them as well?

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For the name yes.

I don't want to derail this thread any further with DoL talk, so I started a new thread here.

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Originally Posted by Reika

Because you like DRK more than DRG.... should be the only reason :/

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agreed. But think of it like this Drg has some of drks abilities now, plus second wind so with those it can handle itself if it has to. If Drks dont get a life draining move thats not a 15 min, and it has abilities that make it damage itself for more power. c.c whms are gonna rage so hard. with the option of Power surge and Life surge alone already gives Drg the edge over Drk. And making Drks to strong will make the Drgs mad. There wont be a happy medium for Drg and Drk im calling it now. Even if the make them exactly equal in dmg that fact that Drg has more survivability will make Drg more desirable cause Drks will take heals away from the tanks unless drk is a tank job. Or will just kill itself cause the whm is focusing on the tank and then you get no dmg.

Still there isnt a real reason Necromancer cant EVENTUALLY be added. I am not saying over any other job. I in fact HATE with a passion when rpgs only release 1 new job at a time cause them everyone plays that one job and then i dont play it cause everyone thinks you do it cause its the fad job like Samurai in 11or Dark Knight in Wow.