[Speculation Discussion] Our Primal

Yes the possibility of Sylph's primal to be Ramuh is quite high several clues point that way.Now about we having a connection with the Empire or coming from there is a possibility too as we never found out our origin from the start we are portrayed as a passing by adventurer.

The Empire having their own summon i don't know since they keep saying they don't bow to false gods but there is art of Death Claw ..will it be connected to them?

I really like this thread but I am not sure if people are using the word "Primal" correctly in some of their statements. Let me at least attempt to illiterate what I mean.

In Eorzea there are many tribes which include Amalja, Ixali, Slyph, Hyur, Miqote, etc which can also be referred to as Races. These can be further broken down into 2 catergories: The civilized races (Miq/Hyur/Elezen/Lalla/Hume) and the tribal (izali/amal/slyph/gobs/quiquirn etc) races. The term Beastman is not the actual affiliation of the tribe but rather a slang word the civilized races have given them because they are less advanced and more tribal (hint there's a word that describes this perfectly....). The Amal'ja do not refer to themselves as beastmen, for instance.

It also goes to follow then, that the words Eikon and Primal are also derogatory slang terms the civilized races use to refer to the Gods that the heretic 'beastmen' tribes worship. Primal is the perfect word for this because it embodies what the civilized races feel about the beastmen, that infact they are primal themselves so that they would be summoning something of a primal nature; in other words back to the basic roots of civilization (fire, stone, wind are all PRIMAL to civilized races). [One of the definitions of Primal also means Fundamental; the elements are fundamental building blocks of the world]

In this sense, no, the Twelve are not Primal's and cannot be referred to as such. But the Primal's such as Ifrit and Garuda can be referred to as gods.

Its easier to make a chart following this pattern:

Tribe(or Race) - Kings - Gods

Example

Amal'ja - Unknown - Ifrit
Draconia - Nidhogg + Midgardsommr - Bahamut
Civilized Races - Possible the Sultana - The Twelve
Garlean - The Emporer - ??? (Odin?!)

But basically the point of my post is Primals are gods, but gods such as The Twelve are not Primals because the word primal is most likely a derogatory word given to them by those whom worship the Twelve.

I hope I explained my point well enough -.-;; Usually I'm pretty terrible at it but I think this is correct in the context of the game thus far. People from Spain that first came to the America's in the 1500's probably also referred to the natives as "Beastmen" or "Primals" when they arrived so I was thinking along the lines of something similar.

Beastmen was a term the Garleans gave for anyone associated with a Primal, they consider people with the Power of the Echo as Beastmen. Eikons are also the derogatory term the Garleans use for Primals.

Pulling some interesting quotes for everyone to look at and give references to the discussion:
---Papalymo, Yda and even Dunstan (a wildling) seem to know what the echo is in Beckon of the Elementals (last Gridania quest). They say this after the skies turn cloudy and the sky explodes - Dunstan: "So it has begun, then. I pray it is not the beginning of the end." Yda: "They're falling towards the lake, Papalymo. Are you thinking what I'm thi-" Papylymo: "Do you even need ask? We should have stopped it and we didn't. It has begun. The winds of change have already swept over Eorzea. We are only just now realizing it. The Echo has sounded..." Yda: "You and I might still be able to stop it."
---Similarly, Y'shtola and Thancred seem to be aware as well. Y'sthola is horrified when the clouds start gathering in Never the Twain Shall Meet (tho she is a bit preoccupied by Travanchet afterwards) and in Calamity Cometh Thancred starts running outside before the clouds gather when he realizes you used the echo, saying "You... That was your doing. The Echo... But that would mean..." When he walks back in he says "So this is the danger that threatened Ul'dah. Only, the shadow of this threat menaces not Ul'dah alone, but all of Eorzea." This is also in reference to what Corguevais and Ascilia said in the beginning of Calamity Cometh - Ascilia: "You don't know anything! You'll see! It's something much worse than the Empire!"
---In Fade to White, Minfilia says "After years of naught but rumors, the past several moon have seen the hill of reports on my desk grow into a veritable mountain. Why the sudden influx? And why now, of all times? Which of the Twelve is waking men anew? Which... if any at all?" She also mentions that "Were you not witness to the skies turning dark and showering the land with a storm of stars? Some of our brothers believe those who partook in this celestial event were "touched" by the Twelve, and that that is how they came by their gift."
---Later in Fade to White Minfilia says (on those with the echo who learned the truth) "Of those few who have... not one is willing to speak of what he saw at the end of the Path. It is as if they all bore witness to a truth too terrible... or too shameful to be told."
---We also know from Fade to White that the Path of the Twelve started 10 years ago (therefore since the battle at Silvertear Falls).
---In "Lord Errant" Ifrit says "I smell the taint upon your soul. Is it Garuda... or Titan? Perchance... Leviathan? Vex me not, mortals. The Paragon warned me of the godless blessed."
---From "Futures Perfect" after the Gaius fight when talking to your city NPC (in my case Y'shtola) she says "Yet you have also been blessed... been woken. If you would only seek the One who gave you that power, you could be granted so much more. And it is for this that I will continue to search." Your Path Companion then says, "For whom!? Who is the "One"? She pursues a power more potent than the primals... And I must find it first!"

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First of all, Yoshida mentioned at one time the 3? basic storylines in ARR. Does anyone remember what they were/when he mentioned it? It was fairly recently... I think they were 1-The Garlean Empire, 2-The Primals and 3-The Echo? I dunno if the echo story was considered a separate arc or not but it could answer some questions, so if anyone knows, it would help a lot!

Anyhoo, my take on this:
Other walkers believe it's the Twelve and Ifrit implies it could be another primal, but due to the last quote it seems to be something different. Like others have mentioned, an Elder primal seems possible (if Siren is the voice we hear, either she's an elder primal or she works under an elder primal). Bahamut and Odin are the two elder primals confirmed so far, but since the entire echo/main story was made before the Seventh Umbral era/Dalamud (Bahamut), it could be Odin... but perhaps it's neither elder primal nor the Twelve but a different/higher being?

As food for thought I'd like to remind everyone of the Ascians aka the "shadowless." The truth to the echo is noted as being too terrible or shameful to speak of, worse than the Garlean Empire, something that can be stopped (and was preventable), is more potent than the primals and is what the original story is all leading towards. The ascians are slowly introduced throughout the main story - one appears in Toll of the Warden, and they are referenced several times in the Limsa storyline. Travanchet, who doesn't have a shadow and has the same music play when he and the Ascian appear, is in league with them. He steals the seal rock key aka a horn which is very similar to the horn Corguevais uses in Calamity Cometh to summon/control monsters. (I went back to check and Corguevais has a shadow, even after he reveals his "true nature." But perhaps he'll turn into an ascian/be controlled by the ascians/work for or with the ascians later like Travanchet?) Corgeuvais was looking for the message that Ascilia's deceased father was meant to give Ul'dah (this message could be the truth of the echo). When Niellefresne looks at the girl's father's body he is stabbed and killed. (Also... Ascilia... Ascian? haha that may be nothing though). And in Gridania Dunstan seems to know something about the echo. So perhaps it's connected to wildlings/elementals as well. It would give more meaning to why an elemental seems to be on the cover of the Collector's Edition box.

tl;dr
I'm not saying the Ascians were the ones who gave us the echo, but I think they will play a big part in the original intended story of ver 1/the echo. How are they connected to the primals? No idea, just throwing this stuff out there...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Without adding a new race, Sylphs are pretty much all that are left to represent lightning. Goblins are fire, Qiqirn are earth, Moogles already summoned Moggle Mog... Now, sure, the Sylphs said that the primals darken hearts and should never be called and they'd never stoop to that - but that was before Bahamut showed up and just completely wrecked them. I'd say at least a fraction of them would fall from grace and demand revenge...

Et voila - Ramuh

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Amaal'jaa are fire. If Goblins are racially different from Kobolds they might have another elemental affinity, otherwise I'd probably lump them in with Kobolds as being Earth based.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Amaal'jaa are fire. If Goblins are racially different from Kobolds they might have another elemental affinity, otherwise I'd probably lump them in with Kobolds as being Earth based.

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Goblins=Yojimbo. Or Ramuh

I don't think the current playable races should have a primal. we come from all different walks of life, even the Garleans are proof of this.

I wish it were cost effective at the time to play more than one character. A lot of that stuff KaMuiSouZou posted was from the Gridania and Ul'Dah stories, and I didn't experience them firsthand. :(

One of the names I recognized was Niellefresne, who is the brother of Colberneaux from the Goldsmith class quests. They explain later on more about Niellefresne and how he was stabbed by Heartseeker, a dagger that puts its victim in a sort of comatose like sleep, so they can't pass onto the next plane. His brother seemed to be trying to find a way to steal the dagger and destroy it so his brother could truly rest in peace. The dagger also belonged to the owner of the Goldsmith guild, so it sounds like some shady stuff was going on there.

Anyway, sorry for going off tangent, just regretting not getting to do Gridania or Ul'Dah storylines.

I was under the impression that Nophica was the one singing to us.
However, I've really no evidence by which to stand on beyond that she is of the Second Moon (Second Month) and Dalamud was the literal Second Moon ;v

Edit: Also, I wonder if they will take Alexander and make it so it's a machine fortress created by the Garleans infused with the spirit of a Primal so that they can fully control it.

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Originally Posted by Mudd

I was under the impression that Nophica was the one singing to us.
However, I've really no evidence by which to stand on beyond that she is of the Second Moon (Second Month) and Dalamud was the literal Second Moon ;v

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This is very possible. In Beckon of the Elementals, a Pudgy Moogle tells us that they have a message from the elementals: "Those beckoned by the forest are here as messengers of Nophica herself - to bring the words of the Matron to all." For whatever reason, I feel more inclined to believe it's Nophica or one of the Twelve rather than Siren/a primal. However, Nophica is the guardian deity of Gridania so this quote could just be part of Gridania's storyline and not refer to the voice in the beginning which is in all three cities. Maybe the voice is indeed Nophica, and all twelve play a part in the echo, summoning and guiding us to stop the Ascians and/or Primals..?? Althyk's powers as god of space and time certainly fit the Echo. If so, perhaps that's why Louisoix could teleport only us (those touched with the Echo) and not everyone else?

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Originally Posted by Orophin

One of the names I recognized was Niellefresne, who is the brother of Colberneaux from the Goldsmith class quests. They explain later on more about Niellefresne and how he was stabbed by Heartseeker, a dagger that puts its victim in a sort of comatose like sleep, so they can't pass onto the next plane. His brother seemed to be trying to find a way to steal the dagger and destroy it so his brother could truly rest in peace. The dagger also belonged to the owner of the Goldsmith guild, so it sounds like some shady stuff was going on there.

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Interesting! I've only done the first class quest to all the DoH and DoL, so I did not know about Heartseeker. If the owner of the Goldsmith guild owns that dagger, then it could mean powerful people behind Ul'dah are already connected to the Ascians (or whoever the bad guys end up being)? Being stabbed at that particular moment when he looks at Ascilia's father's corpse tells me it's far more than just a Goldsmith sidestory.

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Originally Posted by KaMuiSouZou

This is very possible. In Beckon of the Elementals, a Pudgy Moogle tells us that they have a message from the elementals: "Those beckoned by the forest are here as messengers of Nophica herself - to bring the words of the Matron to all." For whatever reason, I feel more inclined to believe it's Nophica or one of the Twelve rather than Siren/a primal. However, Nophica is the guardian deity of Gridania so this quote could just be part of Gridania's storyline and not refer to the voice in the beginning which is in all three cities. Maybe the voice is indeed Nophica, and all twelve play a part in the echo, summoning and guiding us to stop the Ascians and/or Primals..?? Althyk's powers as god of space and time certainly fit the Echo. If so, perhaps that's why Louisoix could teleport only us (those touched with the Echo) and not everyone else?


Interesting! I've only done the first class quest to all the DoH and DoL, so I did not know about Heartseeker. If the owner of the Goldsmith guild owns that dagger, then it could mean powerful people behind Ul'dah are already connected to the Ascians (or whoever the bad guys end up being)? Being stabbed at that particular moment when he looks at Ascilia's father's corpse tells me it's far more than just a Goldsmith sidestory.

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Ascilia's father (Warburton) had important information about the Garleans and Ala Mhigo. Corguevais tells Ascilia that Niellefresne had planned the Goobbue escape in order to gain ground with the people, but Warburton was an accidental death. You learn all this from Thancred and his poker bet in the Platinum Mirage. They were going to attempt to use Necromancy to bring back Warburton so they could hear what he had to tell, but then Niellefresne was stabbed from behind. You witness it happen by using The Echo through Ascilia that shows Mumuep and Niellefresne opening her father's tomb so we can only suspect that she stabbed him.

If it was Bahamut talking through Darnus in "to kill a Raven" he agrees completely in the concept of the world been cleaned up...so maybe that is why he retires and the world manages to be rebuilt in 5 years because he feels the cleaning has been done? i would hope that he nearly annihilated the Garlemalds same as how he attacked Limsa, besides they are the ones that took down one of Bahamut's strongest servants and possibly a good friend Midgarsormr.

What will be the Empire's reaction to Bahamut? he can't and wont be tamed he is a danger for them as it is for every living thing in the planet. I think the Empire will launch an attack to fight him and tire him up i don't know what you guys think?

EDIT:I just noticed too after watching again all the CGI trailers for ARR that Bahamut is wearing a golden armor and Odin wears armor too so i assume Elder Primals wear heavy armor?

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

Ascilia's father (Warburton) had important information about the Garleans and Ala Mhigo. Corguevais tells Ascilia that Niellefresne had planned the Goobbue escape in order to gain ground with the people, but Warburton was an accidental death. You learn all this from Thancred and his poker bet in the Platinum Mirage. They were going to attempt to use Necromancy to bring back Warburton so they could hear what he had to tell, but then Niellefresne was stabbed from behind. You witness it happen by using The Echo through Ascilia that shows Mumuep and Niellefresne opening her father's tomb so we can only suspect that she stabbed him.

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Ah, I didn't know Warburton's info was specifically about the Garlean Empire/Ala Mhigo. Out of curiousity when was it explained, because I don't see that info in Golden Sacrifices?

As far as I know, we have no idea who actually stabbed Niellefresne? When you say "we can only suspect that she stabbed him" I'm assuming you mean the owner of the Goldsmith's guild? (is the owner female?). I don't know the full extent of the Goldsmith class story (only did the first quest) but I doubt the actual owner was the one who did the stabbing (the character model seems to be male as well). But again I'm wondering how much it ties into the main story, as opposed to just being part of the goldsmith class quest line.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

If it was Bahamut talking through Darnus in "to kill a Raven" he agrees completely in the concept of the world been cleaned up...so maybe that is why he retires and the world manages to be rebuilt in 5 years because he feels the cleaning has been done? i would hope that he nearly annihilated the Garlemalds same as how he attacked Limsa, besides they are the ones that took down one of Bahamut's strongest servants and possibly a good friend Midgarsormr.

What will be the Empire's reaction to Bahamut? he can't and wont be tamed he is a danger for them as it is for every living thing in the planet. I think the Empire will launch an attack to fight him and tire him up i don't know what you guys think?

EDIT:I just noticed too after watching again all the CGI trailers for ARR that Bahamut is wearing a golden armor and Odin wears armor too so i assume Elder Primals wear heavy armor?

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that would mean he hates the lesser primals too interesting

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Originally Posted by KaMuiSouZou

Ah, I didn't know Warburton's info was specifically about the Garlean Empire/Ala Mhigo. Out of curiousity when was it explained, because I don't see that info in Golden Sacrifices?

As far as I know, we have no idea who actually stabbed Niellefresne? When you say "we can only suspect that she stabbed him" I'm assuming you mean the owner of the Goldsmith's guild? (is the owner female?). I don't know the full extent of the Goldsmith class story (only did the first quest) but I doubt the actual owner was the one who did the stabbing (the character model seems to be male as well). But again I'm wondering how much it ties into the main story, as opposed to just being part of the goldsmith class quest line.

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I mean Ascilia stabbed him, you go with F'lhaminn(think thats her name) and you discover Ascilia laying on the floor of the tomb and she's shaking scared, that's when you use The Echo. This is all main storyline. Goldsmith quest I don't remember it going into anything too deep (seems like the quests take place WELL after the main storyline) just that Colbernoux seemed to love F'lhaminn like his brother did. After the what? 4 main storyline quests? I don't remember anymore about Corguevais and Ascilia after. Things kicked off the Path of the Twelve quests, maybe there was nothing more to the story that we wouldn't find out from Minfilia.

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Originally Posted by Akubikumo

Ah yes, what/whoever our primal is, we should probably assume it pre-dates The Twelve. After all, if the 5 races are all worshiping The Twelve, that would kind of imply we all converted at some point. The question then would be, are there 5 forgotten primals, one for each race? Primals that we all abandoned? Or 1 primal that we all share (which would mean that we are all descended from a common ancestor... right?)?

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In the Ul'dah storyline there are tons of references to relationships/marriages between members of different races, and it is treated as totally normal. From this I assumed that all 5 races are the same SPECIES, which would suggest one primal.

The idea of Siren... it's just too mundane. There is already too much lore about the "sirens" running around for it to be the answer here, especially since all of that lore revolves around Limsa.

"The paragon warned me of the godless blessed."
If the "primal" Siren was indeed messing with us, the we would not be the godless blessed.

I'm going to propose an alternate theory: The Lodestone.
The crystal, heart and source of the aether, has woken us to protect her. Just like in many of the earlier FF games, notably III and V.

The second ARR trailer (the one made for fans, not the hollywood one) tells us to "heed the crystal's call."

EDIT: Dropping this screencap here.
http://static2.finalfantasyxiv.com/a...VPGXZq4iig.jpg

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Originally Posted by Hulan

While I doubt it is the case, you have to remember, this is all belief in world; lore and mythology. It's entirely possible that what is taught about the 12 is a complete fabrication. That being said, in principle I agree with you, usually lore in Final Fantasy games is set in stone and taken at face value.

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Final Fantasy 11 had all kinds of twists in the main storylines of the 3 main expansions. I wouldn't count on the lore ever being the concrete factual truth, ESPECIALLY when it concerns gods & goddesses. FFXI flipped the script multiple times with the lore, I wouldn't be surprised if FFXIV did the same.

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Originally Posted by KaMuiSouZou

<Snip>

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I like where you're going with a lot of this - and it's certainly up to date with the research I've been doing myself. I think your point about the importance of the Primals vs. Ascians. vs. Woken match is right on, and maybe even opens the door for what we see. The ascian in the Limsa Lominsa storyline wanted the key personally and is visibly a cause of the star showers and possibly even time travel. It would be very interesting if the ascians were the cause of our echo - even indirectly, as if seeing the threat of the ascians roused a primal to pick us as their defense against them.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Amaal'jaa are fire. If Goblins are racially different from Kobolds they might have another elemental affinity, otherwise I'd probably lump them in with Kobolds as being Earth based.

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The goblins are most definitely a unique race - but if we see their primal, I'm betting (like the moogles) it will be something semi-canon; a fun distraction. Goblins are supposed to be ambiguous - we never see their true faces (though, if you do a little subtraction theory on their various masks, you come to something that looks a bit a specific version of the XI concept art, though less scraggly), sometimes they're friends, sometimes they're foes... For them to summon a powerful, legitimate primal would give them too much of a polarized identity.

The same with the qiqirn, methinks. The Aht Urhgan expansion was basically a middle eastern doppelganger of everything we already knew, and the qiqirn were the goblins of that doubling.

Therefore, it makes sense that, even though they'd need a main element simply for the fact we have to fight some of them and they need to have drops, that they wouldn't take up one of the key slots on the wheel.

The sylph, however, are new. In past Final Fantasies, sylph were very similar to pixies - but here we see them with a new visage (possibly to leave the door open for "XI-Legitimate" pixies later on). They have no ties to ambiguity, are part of the main story, and can fall from grace without messing up how we look at the world.

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Originally Posted by Mudd

I wonder if they will take Alexander and make it so it's a machine fortress created by the Garleans infused with the spirit of a Primal so that they can fully control it.

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I've got this tingling in the back of my brain that says something very similar to this... Garleans... secret primal... possibly Alexander... I like where you're going with this. [MOOSE APPROVED STAMP]

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Originally Posted by Rassa

In the Ul'dah storyline there are tons of references to relationships/marriages between members of different races, and it is treated as totally normal. From this I assumed that all 5 races are the same SPECIES, which would suggest one primal.

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That's an interesting way to look at it - humans sure don't all look the same, after all. I mean, none of our historically bottle-necked species have grown tails or horns yet (sadly), but there are sure variations in skin, features, and overall fuzziness (lolmiqo'te). I think you're onto something - one species, many different isolated adaptations.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

If the "primal" Siren was indeed messing with us, the we would not be the godless blessed. I'm going to propose an alternate theory: The Lodestone.

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There are many ways to take the former sentence, but I like the theory of the latter. I'm going to add that one to the list. The voice-over you hear during the crystal scene sounds a lot like the voice during the awakening, as well. Good theory, sir!

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

That's an interesting way to look at it - humans sure don't all look the same, after all. I mean, none of our historically bottle-necked species have grown tails or horns yet (sadly), but there are sure variations in skin, features, and overall fuzziness (lolmiqo'te). I think you're onto something - one species, many different isolated adaptations.

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Ofcourse as it states in the book of Lala that in the beginning there were only Lala and then some other Lala who split off from the group devolved into less superiorly sized beings. It all fits! =P

It will be interesting to see which side the new Primals choose Siren,Fenrir,Leviathan,Shiva,Cait Sith and Odin.Will they be against Bahamut? or they will serve him?

I would love to know if Yoshi-P has a set number of Primes he will add or the list will keep getting bigger

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Originally Posted by Orophin

This really doesn't make sense to me because The Twelve created Hydaelyn. One part I can specifically remember was Llymlaen created the oceans by loosing Leviathan into the world. After observing that Leviathan would eventually flood the land, he was sealed away in Seal Rock. This is Limsa Lominsa folklore though; I don't know if it's actually true.

So if anything, The Twelve created the Primals, going by the above.

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Not to harp on about this but: looks liek the wording is key here: If she "loosed" Leviathan, that could mean Leviathan was already in existence. If she straight up created Leviathan than that would imply all the primals are actually creations of the gods (which just raises more difficult questions).

But what I cant really get my head around is this: Im assuming Primals are basically the embodiment or manifestation of the element they represent. And the fact they are called "Primals" I take to mean elemental, as in building blocks of creation. It just seems odd to me that there would be a Navigator before there was an ocean, or a Builder and Traders before there was civilization. Maybe these titles were bestowed on them by us? It may be nothing but i feel like the chronology is important. If Primals were around first its very likely that Althyk was born from one, possibly from an unknown Astral primal? (again, Eden? "let there be light", etc). Also found this little tidbit from the Monk quest line, the one about Midgardsormr:

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There was the birth of Althyk, god of time among the Twelve, and in turn, His younger sister Nymeia, goddess of fate. And then there was water, and through it the Silvertear Falls came to be at the center of all that was. Here was the source not only of water, but the fount of all magic as well. Now, when water came into being, so too did the great dragon Midgardsormr. Brother Time and Sister Fate, fearing the Falls might fall into the hands of evil, ordered Midgardsormr their protector and warden. Much later, with the arrival of man, would Midgardsormr be worshipped as the guardian deity of Silvertear Falls.

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First off: who gave birth to Althyk? If he's the first of the Twelve, this means there was something/someone that predates the Twelve. What/who could that be? Secondly: If Silvertear is the source of all water, why did Llymlaen need Leviathan to make oceans? Is Leviathan also connected to Silvertear Falls?

Not trying to get off-topic here, in fact im trying to narrow down the playing field. just seems like theres quite a few autonomous agents floating around out there we know nothing about. The Twelve are a confusing bunch, they resemble us and use our weapons and tools. Were they always this way or did they change to suit our perspective? Anyone have the text from the creation stories?

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

I mean Ascilia stabbed him, you go with F'lhaminn(think thats her name) and you discover Ascilia laying on the floor of the tomb and she's shaking scared, that's when you use The Echo. This is all main storyline. Goldsmith quest I don't remember it going into anything too deep (seems like the quests take place WELL after the main storyline) just that Colbernoux seemed to love F'lhaminn like his brother did. After the what? 4 main storyline quests? I don't remember anymore about Corguevais and Ascilia after. Things kicked off the Path of the Twelve quests, maybe there was nothing more to the story that we wouldn't find out from Minfilia.

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Ascilia definitely did not stab him though... You can clearly see it was a robed adult, seemingly male. You then see this character walk past Ascilia who is hiding in the same spot as when you approach her to use the Echo. After the echo ends Ascilia is sitting next to a dying Niellesfresne begging him "please don't die."
video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=MCQyze3HcsE
Echo starts at 3:15, robed man/stabbing is at 4:36
If you're suggesting she hired the man to stab Nielle, I suppose that's possible... but she definitely did not do the physical stabbing.

This is slightly off-topic (read: very), but...
With all those new train-tracks in Eorzea, I would love to see Doomtrain come and take us away into some awesome dungeon or something.

In any case, thread contains many interesting reads =]

If I had to bet on which Primal would align themselves with the players, I'd have to go with Alexander.

I wonder if each of the races have their own primal.

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Originally Posted by Rau

I wonder if each of the races have their own primal.

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Carbuncle Prime returns as the marmot's primal!!!

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Originally Posted by KaMuiSouZou

Ascilia definitely did not stab him though... You can clearly see it was a robed adult, seemingly male. You then see this character walk past Ascilia who is hiding in the same spot as when you approach her to use the Echo. After the echo ends Ascilia is sitting next to a dying Niellesfresne begging him "please don't die."
video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=MCQyze3HcsE
Echo starts at 3:15, robed man/stabbing is at 4:36
If you're suggesting she hired the man to stab Nielle, I suppose that's possible... but she definitely did not do the physical stabbing.

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I didn't know that storyline since i did Gridania seems interesting , but what has that to do with Primals?

I read somewhere that Azeyma the Warden is worshiped predominately by Seeker of the Sun Miqo'te. The Twelve and the Primals both require a considerable amount of Aether to sustain, so it's possible that they are the 5-races' equivalent to the Primals. I think one possible difference is that we aren't driven to bring them into being except in dire circumstances, whereas the sylphs claim that Primals have a tendency to make the Beastmen crazy. Then again, it's possible we've been compelled to call them out all along, but never knew the methods.

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Originally Posted by Yrusama

I read somewhere that Azeyma the Warden is worshiped predominately by Seeker of the Sun Miqo'te. The Twelve and the Primals both require a considerable amount of Aether to sustain, so it's possible that they are the 5-races' equivalent to the Primals. I think one possible difference is that we aren't driven to bring them into being except in dire circumstances, whereas the sylphs claim that Primals have a tendency to make the Beastmen crazy. Then again, it's possible we've been compelled to call them out all along, but never knew the methods.

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I want to learn how to call Rhalgr! I am devoted to destroying as a BLM >:O

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Originally Posted by Warlock

I want to learn how to call Rhalgr! I am devoted to destroying as a BLM >:O

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Rhalgr belongs to the monks! Go play with your god of Death and Taxes.

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Originally Posted by Warlock

I didn't know that storyline since i did Gridania seems interesting , but what has that to do with Primals?

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It's a tangent from an earlier post I made talking about how the Echo might be connected to Ascians in addition to Primals.

This part might be a little far-fetched however there are 12 Knights in the "Knights of the Round" in FF7 if I remember correctly? Please do correct me if I am wrong. I think there might even be 13?.. Even with 13, was the blue spikey thing that Louis called, included in the "12" or did he effectively summon a 13th spikey thing? The other idea I had was the "spikey things" also have a weapon like end on them (mainly pole arms)...

A bit crazy to throw this idea out there, as the summon only appears in one game (from what I recall), but thought I would throw it out there..

I do think Alexander would be a likely story. As for Odin, am I mistaken that in some FF's, he isn't exactly "evil" but more of a protector of the divine/ancient ones? Throwing ideas out into the void. I don't know the lore as well as some.

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Originally Posted by Altena

This part might be a little far-fetched however there are 12 Knights in the "Knights of the Round" in FF7 if I remember correctly? Please do correct me if I am wrong. I think there might even be 13?.. Even with 13, was the blue spikey thing that Louis called, included in the "12" or did he effectively summon a 13th spikey thing? The other idea I had was the "spikey things" also have a weapon like end on them (mainly pole arms)...

A bit crazy to throw this idea out there, as the summon only appears in one game (from what I recall), but thought I would throw it out there..

I do think Alexander would be a likely story. As for Odin, am I mistaken that in some FF's, he isn't exactly "evil" but more of a protector of the divine/ancient ones? Throwing ideas out into the void. I don't know the lore as well as some.

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If that's the case, can't we also consider other humanoid summons like Ramuh, Raiden, Shiva, etc?

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Originally Posted by MrKupo

If that's the case, can't we also consider other humanoid summons like Ramuh, Raiden, Shiva, etc?

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I personally see it less likely that such an important character in the story (if the speculation is true) would be a "lower tier" summon such as Ramuh/Shiva etc.. It's not that they weren't "popular", but more like they weren't very "important" or weren't really of huge significance to most of the stories from memory.

Gilgamesh was quite a significant/unique character however, and is considered an avatar/primal in the some games. So another one to add to speculation I guess..

Very little / no evidence surrounding any of these theories.. Just spitballing possibilities really.


*edit* In addition to the "Odin" theory I do remember Yoshi saying that "Odin will act differently to the other primals" in one of the live letters.

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Originally Posted by Altena

I personally see it less likely that such an important character in the story (if the speculation is true) would be a "lower tier" summon such as Ramuh/Shiva etc.. It's not that they weren't "popular", but more like they weren't very "important" or weren't really of huge significance to most of the stories from memory.

Gilgamesh was quite a significant/unique character however, and is considered an avatar/primal in the some games. So another one to add to speculation I guess..

Very little / no evidence surrounding any of these theories.. Just spitballing possibilities really.


*edit* In addition to the "Odin" theory I do remember Yoshi saying that "Odin will act differently to the other primals" in one of the live letters.

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You might be onto something with this ...I believe Odin will have something to do with stopping Bahamut's rampage :)