Realm Reborn = downgrade?

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Originally Posted by Fensfield

Oh definitely. If detailed character attention tracking remains, especially if they really do keep their promise to re-implement target-oriented emotes, then I'll certainly be consoled even if I am pushing for keeping the present levels of detail in the larger-scale animations as well.

On the other hand if that were removed as well.. urgh >.>; It's not a concern to readily dismiss, either. We got that because it happened to be a design feature of Crystal Tools, so...

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This is truthfully the only thing that scares me. It took me ages to figure out just what about GW2 wasn't sitting right with me, and I finally narrowed it down to just this one mechanic. Now that we've had it for so long, I HATE not having it. I'd still play the game of course, but its loss would really hurt me.

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Originally Posted by Skies

[Removed because its long - and I wanted to save screen space]

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Playing the animation is easy still. Pressing down, start animation 1 phase into animation 2, letting up, phase animation 2 into animation 3. When your character stops he doesn't have to rigidly stop - if you want to see a work of animations go play an Assassins Creed or watch #3 coming out. Ubisoft has got thousands of animations on that guy lol.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Improve yes, but on what? Telling people to be quiet when you don't even "know" the problem will be resolved is foolish. This applies to real life as well...

Not suggesting SE has to do everyone's suggestions (they can say no - but then you can tell the person they said no).

In simple and harmless terms this is how floating bushes and trees make it past alpha and beta, everyone shuts up thinking they knew there was an issue and this is just their "testing" phase.

I will, and I suggest everyone else to, report that damn tree for trolling gravity.

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If you get down to it it's not so much the "shut up it's alpha" it's a lot more "Oo Alpha..EARLY DEMO YAAAAAAAY!" people that partakes in it. Most people do go on the thought that SE would likely be changing certain things and people are hoping this is one of the things since Yoshi stresses over and over "This is Pre-Alpha".

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Playing the animation is easy still. Pressing down, start animation 1 phase into animation 2, letting up, phase animation 2 into animation 3. When your character stops he doesn't have to rigidly stop - if you want to see a work of animations go play an Assassins Creed or watch #3 coming out. Ubisoft has got thousands of animations on that guy lol.

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Yes, but the stop animation, animation 3 as you mention, has one more step on it, one last bit of forward movement.
Are you suggesting the character simply marches in place for that, 'air pedalling'? Because far as I see, that would be the only way to keep the tight control and the stop animation.

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Originally Posted by Skies

Yes, but the stop animation, animation 3 as you mention, has one more step on it, one last bit of forward movement.
Are you suggesting the character simply marches in place for that, 'air pedalling'? Because far as I see, that would be the only way to keep the tight control and the stop animation.

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For that I could suggest a few things.

Make it actually force one more step, this would make running more realistic (go run and try to stop instantly.. dont hurt yourself please lol)

Shorten the animation on the feet step and include the lean back as a symbol of stopping the momentum (lean back is already in current game - you would see a tiny lean back and step but it would make no difference in x and y).

Add a -timed- time difference in animation 1 and 3 so that when phasing in and out you've only moved as far as you have run though it may appear you have taken a step your character was already at the point in memory (no control gained or lost, just an appearance of a step).


I "think" they are doing more of an example three in the current game.

I wish they would come out and tell us, so we can finally stop having this discussion. Bad enough we can't seem to keep it in one thread.

I'm positive the head tracking thing (which only myself and Fensfield seem to care about) was displayed during the Gamescon demo... To the youtubes!

EDIT: 16:42 of the long high def video of Gamescon. The heads still do track. Happy day Fensfield :D. The rest of you, continue with the thread ^^.

Oh and someone should probably mention about the problems with how animations work in this game. You have to complete one animation before you can begin another one, resulting in animation lock. In the meantime, the server has already started processing the next move of your enemy, the animation of which you don't see, resulting in latency and getting murdered by Ifrit's Eruption.

The fact that animations looked dumbdown doesn't mean they will be. Your character will move differently in 2.0 and that frankly is a good thing. It makes sense that, considering the complete overhaul animation is getting in 2.0, that the PRE-Alpha presentation would not have all the bells-and-whistles animations that we would expect out of a finished game.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Oh and someone should probably mention about the problems with how animations work in this game. You have to complete one animation before you can begin another one, resulting in animation lock.

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Only thing that makes Ifrit even remotely hard.. lol

Alpha is Alpha is a very valid thing. At the same time not lodging concerns, no mater how niggling and petty they seem or encouraging others to shut up about what ever due to x being x is actually detrimental.


Lodge your concerns and let the people who are payed to do so sort them out.

Those small things the OP offered up are weak at best. YP has said already that the game is pre-alpha and those things listed are so small that it would seem obvious to not bother with it right away. Geez.

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Originally Posted by Toxsik

Those small things the OP offered up are weak at best. YP has said already that the game is pre-alpha and those things listed are so small that it would seem obvious to not bother with it right away. Geez.

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I know right, it's the grass bullshit all over again. Gotta love those folks who already know what the final end products gonna be like. :P

Other MMOs have stopping and turning animations and still have jump so SE don't really have any excuse, to be honest.

Have you seen 2.0 in person?

If you haven't please don't comment on the graphics. A video of a video isn't exactly a video...

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Originally Posted by LlenCoram

I'm positive the head tracking thing (which only myself and Fensfield seem to care about) was displayed during the Gamescon demo... To the youtubes!

EDIT: 16:42 of the long high def video of Gamescon. The heads still do track. Happy day Fensfield :D. The rest of you, continue with the thread ^^.

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Oh, thanks for that.. that's a small relief, but I won't be sitting comfortably until I've seen Forra's eyes moving along with a target as normal, too. Still, thanks to small blessings and good signs and all.

.. I see the 'shut up how dare you voice your concerns' brigade remain in force >.>

It's not a downgrade is "Optimal Grade" :D

Well while its a good thing having those little features i can live without those, by the way having trolls its a good sign that this game is getting out of the hole

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Originally Posted by Fensfield

Oh, thanks for that.. that's a small relief, but I won't be sitting comfortably until I've seen Forra's eyes moving along with a target as normal, too. Still, thanks to small blessings and good signs and all.

.. I see the 'shut up how dare you voice your concerns' brigade remain in force >.>

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I was thinking the same, I want to see those eyes move as well. At least this is something. But yeah, with you there. Time to make a quick getaway.

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Originally Posted by Skies

...do you guys KNOW why they implemented the momentum physics? (which are the leaning/windup/winddown when moving)
It is to mask the lag, you presume that it takes a moment for your character to start moving because of the movement initiation animation, when in reality the animation is there to mask the time it takes between your character moving on-screen and on the server. If there is, presumably, no lag to mask, why have those animations when everything they do is blur wether or not your input actually was registered?
Let's take the one most difficult problem to solve here: You want the controls to be precise, if you let go of the forward button, you need to stop moving immediately. If you have a stopping momentum, you take a step further ahead, slowing down, when you stop moving.
You need to stop moving when you let go of the button. You need to take one extra step to play the animation. You only know the player wants to stop moving when he lets go of the button.
When the hell do you play the animation? Answer that.

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Is this something you heard officially from SE as for the reasons why such a fluid animation feature that is used in all the best AAA titles is being used in FFXIV 1.xx? To mask animation lag or latency? I never read such a quote. Are you a game developer? Even if it was a good excuse to put the animation cues in, why take them out when with such good response to controls now, there would be no reason why as soon as you press the key to move once again it could simply overwrite the previous animation sequence with the new key command to move forward like most games do. The only person that needs to know the player stopped moving is you, the one pressing the keys. Nobody else cares when you start or stop running. You should know when you are or aren't pressing the key, its not the animation that determines that. When it comes to gameplay/battle, the only thing that could hamper throwing up a spell or attack is the lag, not the animation. And with no more lag, no more problem. Animation sequences can easily be replaced/overwritten by instant key presses client-side no problem. To answer your question, the animation is played when the keys are pressed, any animation sequence after letting go doesn't affect gameplay at all when lag isn't an issue anymore... which ARR claims to fix.

i.e. Press UP key --> Move forward; Release UP key --> Stop for 2 second animation sequence; Press UP key after 1 second --> Overwrite previous animation sequence to stopping, instantly replacing with running forward again.

With no lag issues, this process no longer gets disrupted, thus no reason to take out the start/stop animation. Guild Wars 2 has no problem with this.

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Originally Posted by Skies

Also to the goober who said that the camera is locked behind your character, be more mindful and pay more attention. Watch the HD presentation video of gamescom, which if I remember right was shown on the second day. After Yoshida has switched over to Dragoon AF, heading down a ramp, he keeps running but turns the camera leftwards sufficiently so that the camera's focused on the character's right shoulder, showing the scenery to his left, while still running without changing direction. Go look it up again.

Good heavens.

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What this goober meant was that the controls weren't literally and permanently locked behind the character with no way to pan the camera, but that the default camera when not manually moving the camera has changed in ARR Pre-Alpha videos to show that the camera is setup the same way all other MMO's use the camera following behind the character instead of the current controller-friendly fixed camera independent of which direction the character faces. Current FFXIV lets the character run directly to the camera until the player decides to rotate the camera. ARR is showing that by simply turning the character, the camera turns with him/her. Not sure if you understood that.

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Originally Posted by Fensfield

.. I see the 'shut up how dare you voice your concerns' brigade remain in force >.>

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Perish the thought, these type of threads are a dime a dozen and often started by people who have jumped to conclusions about a product that is still in the non-playable stages of development, so a little sarcasm is to be expected.

The Gamescom demo Yoshi messed with was a demo specifically put together to show the how far they've come in the game's development and to give a slight idea on what they had in mind for 2.0. Chances are other than a familiar interface from the video we will probably get something drastically different from what was shown at Gamescom in both the Alpha and Beta.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I think nitpicking pre-alpha footage is pointless.

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http://jmanandmillerbug.com/wp-conte...012/04/No1.jpg

This is the EXACT same attitude that let them get away with releasing the game in a terrible state in the first place.
Let the company defend itself. If people have issues, don't belittle them, allow them to talk about it.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

This is the EXACT same attitude that let them get away with releasing the game in a terrible state in the first place.
Let the company defend itself. If people have issues, don't belittle them, allow them to talk about it.

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Actually that was more of SE's fault for not listening to the playerbase who clearly told them it was still very fucked up and not ready for release. Trust me we bitched and griped at them and gave our opinions in a loud and vocal manner during the beta, and they still disregarded our input and went ahead and released an unfinished game.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

http://jmanandmillerbug.com/wp-conte...012/04/No1.jpg

This is the EXACT same attitude that let them get away with releasing the game in a terrible state in the first place.
Let the company defend itself. If people have issues, don't belittle them, allow them to talk about it.

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Huh? Huh? So I'm not allowed to have an opinion but the OP is? Huh?

I'm going to call my big important looking phone and dial Yoshi-P and tell him to pay attention to me and me only and that if I say it's a non-issue it's a non-issue.


Meanwhile back to reality.

Blaming the 1.0 failure to launch on "this EXACT same attitude" is laughable. lol

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Actually that was more of SE's fault for not listening to the playerbase who clearly told them it was still very fucked up and not ready for release. Trust me we bitched and griped at them, gave our opinions in a loud and vocal manner, and they still disregarded our input and went ahead and released an unfinished game.

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Rather, it was the top suits fault at SE since even Tanaka agreed the game wasn't ready just before they made an announcement that it'll be released in sept.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Huh? Huh? Shubba lubba gubbah juh? Huh?

I'm going to call my big important looking phone and dial Yoshi-P and tell him to pay attention to me and me only and that if I say it's a non-issue it's a non-issue.


Meanwhile back to reality.

Blaming the 1.0 failure to launch on "this EXACT same attitude" is laughable. lol (See everyone? See me laugh? That's me. Laughing at the idea that I said was laughable. It's true now. My will makes it so.)

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Point being, you don't need to defend the company. Especially with only the shallow theory that it's going to be in later. The reality is, it's not there now and the concern is real.

I can see it happening all over again:
"It's a pre-alpha, they'll fix it later"
"It's just the alpha, it still needs polish"
"It's a beta, it's not done yet"

Because that's pretty much what happened in 1.0 and I can't let that happen again. Square's actually listening this time, and we need to take advantage of that.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Huh? Huh? So I'm not allowed to have an opinion but the OP is? Huh?

I'm going to call my big important looking phone and dial Yoshi-P and tell him to pay attention to me and me only and that if I say it's a non-issue it's a non-issue.


Meanwhile back to reality.

Blaming the 1.0 failure to launch on "this EXACT same attitude" is laughable. lol

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He's not saying you can't have an opinion. He's negating the idea that our nitpicking is pointless. Our open line of connection to the community team/dev team is the result of not hearing what the players expect out of SE, which they need to know to succeed. They spend big time money keeping this line of communication open because it is good business. If they want our money, they better hear us out, even if there are fields and fields of grass threads to mow down. Threads about nerfed animation matters imo. If you know anything about Final Fantasy and Square Enix, superior graphics quality is part of what defines SE from other games.

For the ppl that want to compare this with the grass threads (which is an obvious overstatement in comparison); animation changes like these are subtracting from the high quality we're used to from Square Enix plain and simple. Complaining about grass flatness is just plain silly, which is why it blew up the way it did.

Let's also not forget that FFXIV 1.0 alpha footage already had their animation done and completed. Early footage will show the beautiful animation in place already even in that early stage, which tells me that in any development cycle, animation is part of what gets put in first. At this stage in ARR, why would they wait so long to put it in?

It's like YoshiP saying, "You got 80% of the animation done? Okay lets market it!"

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Point being, you don't need to defend the company. Especially with only the shallow theory that it's going to be in later. The reality is, it's not there now and the concern is real.

I can see it happening all over again:
"It's a pre-alpha, they'll fix it later"
"It's just the alpha, it still needs polish"
"It's a beta, it's not done yet"

Because that's pretty much what happened in 1.0 and I can't let that happen again. Square's actually listening this time, and we need to take advantage of that.

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You are making complete and logical sense my friend. I was there too, and hell if I'm not going to speak up given the opportunity with SE's eyes and ears pointed in our direction this time around.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Actually that was more of SE's fault for not listening to the playerbase who clearly told them it was still very fucked up and not ready for release. Trust me we bitched and griped at them and gave our opinions in a loud and vocal manner during the beta, and they still disregarded our input and went ahead and released an unfinished game.

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Except for the white knights frothing at the mouth, torches and pitchforks in hand, ready to pounce anyone who would dare speak out against XIV on the alpha/beta forums because "its just alpha" and "its just beta" and "its only been out six months."

It was very similar to this thread actually. Actually... some of the posters IN this thread were part of the very same group I refer to above. Isn't that interesting?

Nitpicking pre-alpha footage is pointless for the following reasons:

1) You haven't seen it yet
2) You haven't played it yet
3) They're not accepting your feedback yet.

See my first post. Why don't you join alpha and find out whether or not you care?

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Nitpicking pre-alpha footage is pointless for the following reasons:

1) You haven't seen it yet
2) You haven't played it yet
3) They're not accepting your feedback yet.

See my first post. Why don't you join alpha and find out whether or not you care?

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Except we have seen it, that's where the complaint even comes from.
And they better damn well be accepting feedback like they have over the past 2 years.

And of course I'm joining alpha.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Nitpicking pre-alpha footage is pointless for the following reasons:

1) You haven't seen it yet
2) You haven't played it yet
3) They're not accepting your feedback yet.

See my first post. Why don't you join alpha and find out whether or not you care?

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Because we have something called eyes. And with these eyes we can quite literally see something lacking in the gorgeous ARR alpha footage, and we're simply asking "wtf SE?" The footage almost looks complete in its graphical department and this makes smart people wonder.

1) We have all seen the footage
2) Alpha is just around the corner, so you expect them to just throw the missing animation in there in a month's time?
3) They are accepting our feedback 24/7 (otherwise we wouldn't even be talking this way would we?)

See post #106.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Except we have seen it, that's where the complaint even comes from.
And they better damn well be accepting feedback like they have over the past 2 years.

And of course I'm joining alpha.

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I think we fundamentally disagree as to what exactly we were looking at in that footage. But whatever. I agree that they should look at all feedback for A Realm Reborn. I don't necessarily think that they should act on all of it, however. Then the game would never be finished. Some things just don't matter that much in the long run and the grand scheme.

Zai: You still seem sore over the moogle race petition thread. If you want to troll me everytime I disagree with you that's fine, but please keep in mind that I'll be ignoring you for a bit.

3) We're paying, they're accepting feedback.
2 & 1) You dont need to do or see something to have concern/opinion for it.

I disprove of murder, I have neither done or seen it.


This isn't the time to moderate opinions like this one (never is the time), do that for things already solved or illogical *- then its wasting space and SE time trying to sift through it's players opinions.

*Afraid to put illogical as that could be easily abused... But wanting seamless and immersive animations (to this extent) is not illogical, and wanting to make sure it hasn't been removed cross engines is also a fine concern.

And the moral of the story is:
Do you want the animations or not?

Just say if you want them or not, instead of crying because it's pre alpha or whatever other excuse you give to suck up to S.E.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

3) We're paying, they're accepting feedback.
2 & 1) You dont need to do or see something to have concern/opinion for it.

I disprove of murder, I have neither done or seen it.


This isn't the time to moderate opinions like this one (never is the time), do that for things already solved or illogical *- then its wasting space and SE time trying to sift through it's players opinions.

*Afraid to put illogical as that could be easily abused... But wanting seamless and immersive animations (to this extent) is not illogical, and wanting to make sure it hasn't been removed cross engines is also a fine concern.

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Exactly. I like logic so thank you for that. There are a lot of opinions being thrown out, some worth implementing, some not. I believe this to be of a real concern. If they decide not to do anything about it then so be it. But if I am given the opportunity to notice something missing from my favorite MMO reincarnation, then you better believe I'm gonna speak up. Missing animation isn't a gamebreaker for most of us... but the lack thereof is a disappointment to fans that were proud to have it as something unique to the MMO they chose to play. I, for one, would terribly miss simply running around and appreciating a bit of visual eye candy with my character and fellow mates.

To be honest, I watched that video and also thought things seemed downgraded. I also worry about the "it's alpha" excuse, since it makes me think back to "it's just beta" excuse of yesteryear.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

2 & 1) You dont need to do or see something to have concern/opinion for it.

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No, but you shouldn't get angry if that opinion is openly dismissed either.

I'm looking forward to playing the game before I make any solid opinions. At this point, I could form an opinion on how loud the trains are. Doesn't mean it matters.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Zai: You still seem sore over the moogle race petition thread. If you want to troll me everytime I disagree with you that's fine, but please keep in mind that I'll be ignoring you for a bit.

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I rarely read the names of the ppl I respond to. Don't take it personal. I don't care who you are, only the responses. If you happen to disagree with me 99.9% of the time, um, so?

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Nitpicking pre-alpha footage is pointless for the following reasons:

1) You haven't seen it yet
2) You haven't played it yet
3) They're not accepting your feedback yet.

See my first post. Why don't you join alpha and find out whether or not you care?

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Your right the gamescon 2012 footage is indeed Pre-Alpha, the footage in the video below is also Pre-Alpha but its from Gamescon 2009 and one of the first ffxiv gameplay footage released; differences is, animation is included in the original version of Pre-Aplha footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu3wr...feature=relmfu

The fact of the matter, in the ARR footage the animation is excluded and no one but SE knows why, assuming it will be added in later is a mistake. You don't know if it will or if it was cut out completely, as others have stated already, putting it off is a bad idea, we can only make assumptions based on the information we have now. Less then 2 months away before 1.0 servers go down and we still hardly have any information.

What makes u think they are not taking feedback already? if i remember right, Dev posts usually end with them asking us to continuing discussing issues and features we would like to see. Doubt their referring to the current version of the game which has no more big patches left.

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Originally Posted by JusticeReborn

To be honest, I watched that video and also thought things seemed downgraded. I also worry about the "it's alpha" excuse, since it makes me think back to "it's just beta" excuse of yesteryear.

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k then watch this and compare it with what we have you will know about the so called "pre-alpha"
its xiv 1.0 in gamescom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVr_S...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu3wrXBaRKA

i mean for god sake the game hasnt yet been complete yet and yoshi said there are major things gonna change from that video the 2012 gamescom one.