You might as well add an official DPS log to the game...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asako

If someone doesn't meet your expectations in your own party you are free to tell them and then kick them, it's your party, then you can just black list them and move on. Who cares?

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The problem is, by making dps meters against TOS to talk about, you can't tell someone why they're being kicked, so that person just thinks people are being toxic for no reason, and not knowing why they were kicked, e.g their DPS is lackluster, for a fight that has an enrage

I think a good compromise is only allowing a in game DPS meter against fights with an enrage, and the sky sanctuary thing, that way it'll never come up in casual content

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

I think a good compromise is only allowing a in game DPS meter against fights with an enrage, and the sky sanctuary thing, that way it'll never come up in casual content

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The one issue with SSS is that it's overworld content. I have seen someone boast that they managed to clear the final savage dummy of that tier, but when watched not only did they barely clear it using food and potions, but their chocobo companion was out.

As for the comment about raiders wanting perfection. We don't want perfection, we want competence. I've seen a wipe at 0.1% where the analysis of one of the party members showed that they one of their gcds was used 5/26 times, which would have easily compensated for that .1% if they had used them even 50% of the time.

Missed buttons, damage downs, these things happen and I don't expect people to be perfect 100% of the time. But if you fundamentally are missing a component of your class and I can't point it out because dps meter illegal, the only thing I can do is kick and banlist.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

The problem is, by making dps meters against TOS to talk about, you can't tell someone why they're being kicked, so that person just thinks people are being toxic for no reason, and not knowing why they were kicked, e.g their DPS is lackluster, for a fight that has an enrage

I think a good compromise is only allowing a in game DPS meter against fights with an enrage, and the sky sanctuary thing, that way it'll never come up in casual content

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The kick itself is then illegal, as it is an act of harassment using third-party tools. Your only real alternative under the TOS is to Vote Abandon, disband the party, and try again.

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Originally Posted by theunhappypotato

this guy you're replying too has to be trolling

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Nope. I just don't suffer idiots very well.

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

Nope. I just don't suffer idiots very well.

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if you're really serious. you're funny

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

The kick itself is then illegal, as it is an act of harassment using third-party tools. Your only real alternative under the TOS is to Vote Abandon, disband the party, and try again.

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nah its totally legit to kick someone out of my own party who holds the party back, not matter what game ff14 included

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

Your only real alternative under the TOS is to Vote Abandon, disband the party, and try again.

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That's usually what they do on JP. The 3 wipes rules, meaning after the third, they silently disband and queue up again, hoping to score a better party of players next time. They don't really try to curate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

I think a good compromise is only allowing a in game DPS meter against fights with an enrage, and the sky sanctuary thing, that way it'll never come up in casual content

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While such an in-game dps meter would help, you would always have the same problem.
People not only kick because someone is so extremely bad but also those who are either slightly below it (no chance for improvement) or those who's damage is enough but simply not at the number the party leader likes (unfair).
There aren't just "don't know how to press buttons" and "I am a god" players. Most fall in the middle but it's the Tomestone judges who think they are the cream of the cream.
Then you also have the PF loot problem that, if you are unlucky, you can be good but simply didn't get the gear.

There really isn't a compromise, something will always be bad.
If you turn down the DPS checks then you will have the old body check problem as an answer and still have people kicked because more damage means the potential to skip mechanics.
If you turn both down than Savage loses it's difficulty.

No matter what, the whole DPS meter abuse will always be in PF because of a mix of fight design and because people are idiots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

The kick itself is then illegal, as it is an act of harassment using third-party tools. Your only real alternative under the TOS is to Vote Abandon, disband the party, and try again.

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If someone kicks without saying anything that's completely legal.
No one is forcrd to play with you on the playground.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

@voidmage , no

TwiceDamned is correct.

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Read my post again, carefully. If someone kicks you without saying anything that is neither a breach of the TOS, nor in anyway wrong.
Good player conduct has a limit. The kick button is there for a reason. No one is forced to play with you.
But I know that you are only here to rile things up from your other posts so whatever.

@voidmage , no

TwiceDamned is correct.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

The kick itself is then illegal, as it is an act of harassment using third-party tools. Your only real alternative under the TOS is to Vote Abandon, disband the party, and try again.

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Good player conduct is part of the ToS.

If a party leader kept announcing in chat that they are kicking someone because of the standard of their tombstone.gg profile they would be halled up in GM jail not for having said something but for the circumstances of their kicking of someone who already joined.

If someone kept on doing it ignoring the gms they'd be account suspended.

If they kept returning from suspensoins and kept doing it they'd be account TERMINATED.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bryson

...
no one is entitled to a spot in someone else's pf.

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Actually, I'd argue that they most certainly are entitled to a spot, if they've posted a *public* PF. If someone doesn't like that they need to either put a static together and use private PFs, or failing that "please pay other games".

* Kick needs to be removed/disabled from 'public' PF all together
* parties can convert private to public but not the other way around
* If you don't like someone your playing with 'you leave'.
* Disband absolutely needs removing from public pf, and an auto-promote adding
* Games need recording back-end so that genuine griefers can be reported, reviewed, and dealt with by SE. If when you've cleared your M4S week 3 you come back to PF just to greif to get your kicks you'll find your self BANNED from the next tier altogether until it's open to unlimited parties.
* (and this is a big one) The PF descriptions need to be made bigger to accommodate roman alphabet languages, so that leaders can be clearer about their expectations. (No doubt that's six years of dev work though)

*Public* PFs need to be recognised as a 'two way' contract. Its not only the party leader making an investment. And the biggest investment is sitting in a boring PF lobby while it fills, only for it to be disbanded six minutes in after the 3rd pull.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

@voidmage , no

TwiceDamned is correct.



Good player conduct is part of the ToS.

If a party leader kept announcing in chat that they are kicking someone because of the standard of their tombstone.gg profile they would be halled up in GM jail not for having said something but for the circumstances of their kicking of someone who already joined.

If someone kept on doing it ignoring the gms they'd be account suspended.

If they kept returning from suspensoins and kept doing it they'd be account TERMINATED.



Actually, I'd argue that they most certainly are entitled to a spot, if they've posted a *public* PF. If someone doesn't like that they need to either put a static together and use private PFs, or failing that "please pay other games".

* Kick needs to be removed/disabled from 'public' PF all together
* parties can convert private to public but not the other way around
* If you don't like someone your playing with 'you leave'.
* Disband absolutely needs removing from public pf, and an auto-promote adding
* Games need recording back-end so that genuine griefers can be reported, reviewed, and dealt with by SE. If when you've cleared your M4S week 3 you come back to PF just to greif to get your kicks you'll find your self BANNED from the next tier altogether until it's open to unlimited parties.
* (and this is a big one) The PF descriptions need to be made bigger to accommodate roman alphabet languages, so that leaders can be clearer about their expectations. (No doubt that's six years of dev work though)

*Public* PFs need to be recognised as a 'two way' contract. Its not only the party leader making an investment. And the biggest investment is sitting in a boring PF lobby while it fills, only for it to be disbanded six minutes in after the 3rd pull.

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Magnificent bait sir i must say this is the best i have read so far i thank you for this

The sickness is SQEX sloppy (untested) stat adjustments due to the Christmas delay.
The log checkers are just a symptom.
If SQEX balanced the battles better, they wouldn't have to kick you out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

* Kick needs to be removed/disabled from 'public' PF all together
...
... And the biggest investment is sitting in a boring PF lobby while it fills, only for it to be disbanded six minutes in after the 3rd pull.

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You say you're not allowed to kick the (known ahead) problems, but at the same time you say it's frustrating to disband after the third pull because of them.
Decide?


Got kicked? So what - just go to the next one.
People shouldn't allways get all emotional about things like this.

I highly recommend people watch Dan Olson's Why It's Rude to Suck at Warcraft (either this talk or his Video Essay by the same title on Folding Ideas channel, I like the talk due to the Q&A at the end).

In broad strokes: this is a social game and high end content is goal-oriented instrumental play, so it's only natural that players will come up with and enforce their own rules and standards. The game itself does not require you to use food when you join a Savage PF, nor does it require you to use pots when you're going for a clear. The other players will however require that of you, and not following these social rules is bad manners. Knowing the mechanics at the correct prog point and how to play your job at some level of competency when joining a PF is really not that different. SE has very limited tools to affect this behavior, and for the most part they shouldn't.

I think it's also notable that the aforementioned Why It's Rude to Suck at Warcraft essay/talk came out before WoW decided to remove support for combat addons, but at the same time the game is adding a damage meter to the base UI, understanding that this is just one of the fundamental tools a modern MMO should have.

The current approach of Fight Club rules applying to the damage meters I think is broadly unhelpful. The intent of preventing players from being toxic towards people who under-perform is noble, but doing that through obfuscating individual performance is a double edged sword: if a group removes you because of numbers, but is unable to tell you that's why they are doing it, and you can't see any metrics of your own performance yourself, the end result is that you lack the very feedback you need to improve. It's a weird grey zone where you can violate the social norms of the community, and be completely oblivious that this is what you're doing.

XIV should continue its course on having strong ToS against toxic behavior: nobody should hurl insults at you, tell you to uninstall the game or worse, regardless of reason. I do however think that adding an official DPS meter to the game at this point would be a net positive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Terhix

I think it's also notable that the aforementioned Why It's Rude to Suck at Warcraft essay/talk came out before WoW decided to remove support for combat addons, but at the same time the game is adding a damage meter to the base UI, understanding that this is just one of the fundamental tools a modern MMO should have.

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Lol, man, that game really has fallen off hard if its deliberately trying to encourage toxicity now.

And to think some people were going to get suckered into playing it over the addition of housing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Lol, man, that game really has fallen off hard if its deliberately trying to encourage toxicity now.

And to think some people were going to get suckered into playing it over the addition of housing.

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Yeah, it really sucks, because I am going to be now always anxious about everyone seeing my DPS on their screen, which will naturally lead me to screw up more. WoW was already kind of toxic, but now it's going to be so toxic, because people will finally be able to see everyone's DPS in real time for the first time.

Yeah, I can't believe people would actually play WoW over FFXIV ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Lol, man, that game really has fallen off hard if its deliberately trying to encourage toxicity now.

And to think some people were going to get suckered into playing it over the addition of housing.

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Between WoW and XIV one game is hemorrhaging players and the other is doing really well atm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Between WoW and XIV one game is hemorrhaging players and the other is doing really well atm.

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WoW's playerbase is the same one that stuck with them all through Shadowlands, helped Diablo Immortal to prosper, and keeps bankrolling Overwatch 2, so I wouldn't consider modern Blizzboys the best judges of quality anyway, lol.

I will admit the idea of housing in WoW was tempting, along with some of the other supposed upcoming changes in the next expansion, and it would have been poetic irony to have quit WoW for FF14 only to quit FF14 to go back to WoW... but built-in DPS meters? Ick, I'd rather just be MMOless if FF14 crashes and burns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Yeah, it really sucks, because I am going to be now always anxious about everyone seeing my DPS on their screen, which will naturally lead me to screw up more. WoW was already kind of toxic, but now it's going to be so toxic, because people will finally be able to see everyone's DPS in real time for the first time.

Yeah, I can't believe people would actually play WoW over FFXIV ...

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Well, wow came out early, and if you were playing wow you would be sticking to it rather than switching. I played both, but personally, I like the crafting and gathering system in ffxiv so I played it over wow over the years. In the case of wow, the DPS numbers have always been there; it is just something you can't see without getting a third-party tool, yet most people just have it by default. Granted, this created a lot of toxicity, and Blizz tried to push the social contract, which was a way to reduce toxicity in wow. However, the rules are hardly ever enforced, rendering the social contract ineffective against the toxicity that already exists in the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Between WoW and XIV one game is hemorrhaging players and the other is doing really well atm.

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One game ditched its casual players for a year and the other is trying to appeal to them (while already having a dedicated playerbase that stuck throughout the years). One is investing money back into the game while the other is shoveling it towards other ventures.
It's really not hard science here...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

(...) but built-in DPS meters? Ick, I'd rather just be MMOless if FF14 crashes and burns.

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There exists no future in which raiding scene in XIV does not use dps meters, having one built-in into the game would only bring information parity to all players. Again, I strongly recommend watching that Dan Olson's talk (which given the timeline of responses you haven't). Requiring that other people use food, pots, and perform somewhat competently at their job is itself not toxic, but refusing to adhere to those social norms and still expecting to do high end content is. There is a level of pettiness at which this becomes unhealthy (which Olson also covers), to say nothing of language that players can sometimes employ, but it's much easier for a company to control and police the language people use in game, than it is to control or police social norms they develop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Terhix

There exists no future in which raiding scene in XIV does not use dps meters, having one built-in into the game would only bring information parity to all players. Again, I strongly recommend watching that Dan Olson's talk (which given the timeline of responses you haven't). Requiring that other people use food, pots, and perform somewhat competently at their job is itself not toxic, but refusing to adhere to those social norms and still expecting to do high end content is. There is a level of pettiness at which this becomes unhealthy (which Olson also covers), to say nothing of language that players can sometimes employ, but it's much easier for a company to control and police the language people use in game, than it is to control or police social norms they develop.

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your efford is commendable but stop wasting yout time with Aido, they're either an elaborate troll or truly have such a problem with anything endgame related in this game that i dont think any form of video essay or just good arguments can make them maybe think they're wrong, and honestly i'm here for it its hilarious to read what they say sometimes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LotteYanson

...
Got kicked? So what - just go to the next one.
People shouldn't allways get all emotional about things like this.

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Yeah, just getting rid of kick and leaving it like that isn't workable on its own.
But would be as a replacement is being able to flag people as 'This player account can't join PF's *I* lead for 24 hours', and your PFs are hidden from them.
If they want to use third party tools to 'see' that you've blocked them for 24 hours, that's their problem. If they act out and get vindictive, that's something SE can deal with. If you know them out of game in a disocrd, that's your problem.
Then you just leave the party your self, and setup another. If others want to leave with you, great. If not, great for them.
Like I say, another essential ingredient is that games are recorded to SE can go in and look for genuine griefers, and that they are then using that capability.
Then it's like you say, one problem player, and you just setup another PF.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LotteYanson

The sickness is SQEX sloppy (untested) stat adjustments due to the Christmas delay.
The log checkers are just a symptom.
If SQEX balanced the battles better, they wouldn't have to kick you out.


You say you're not allowed to kick the (known ahead) problems, but at the same time you say it's frustrating to disband after the third pull because of them.
Decide?


Got kicked? So what - just go to the next one.
People shouldn't allways get all emotional about things like this.

---

careful, common sense angers people

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Terhix

There exists no future in which raiding scene in XIV does not use dps meters, having one built-in into the game would only bring information parity to all players. Again, I strongly recommend watching that Dan Olson's talk (which given the timeline of responses you haven't). Requiring that other people use food, pots, and perform somewhat competently at their job is itself not toxic, but refusing to adhere to those social norms and still expecting to do high end content is. There is a level of pettiness at which this becomes unhealthy (which Olson also covers), to say nothing of language that players can sometimes employ, but it's much easier for a company to control and police the language people use in game, than it is to control or police social norms they develop.

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It's all fine and dandy to speak about social norms when you can ask to a thousand different players and you'll get a thousand different answers, especially when it comes to what degree of dps or what degree of mechanical/execution mistake is tolerated.

The most silly part of it is, on Tuesday reclears I joined and was silently kicked from 3 different elitist PF groups... and then easily got clear in 4th group, no fuss no muss.

I got kicked once because my profile on lodestone was set to private so nobody can trace anything. Party leader got mad that i'm "hiding something". He quickly went to my blacklist.
Second time I got kicked from a farm party where I helped leader kill chaotic raid as his skills were quite lacking. Then decided to shout his pf onto every city to talk about what he done. Needless to say, his pf went out quickly as people started to leave. Got what he deserved.

Now honestly silent kicks are bad. Either say what is wrong or don't do it. If you do, there will be people like me who are ready to do everything to show consequences said actions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

The kick itself is then illegal, as it is an act of harassment using third-party tools. Your only real alternative under the TOS is to Vote Abandon, disband the party, and try again.

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Missed the point, thank you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

The kick itself is then illegal, as it is an act of harassment using third-party tools. Your only real alternative under the TOS is to Vote Abandon, disband the party, and try again.

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You know what, sod it, I will bite.

https://i.imgur.com/aFeB8n5.png

Why are you so invested in securing a spot in the party of someone who, very clearly, is uncomfortable by your presence for whatever reason it may be, and doesn't want you there? it feels dedicated to making the whole experience uncomfortable, why would you do that, instead of just finding a new party where proper expectations are set?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Terhix

There exists no future in which raiding scene in XIV does not use dps meters, having one built-in into the game would only bring information parity to all players. Again, I strongly recommend watching that Dan Olson's talk (which given the timeline of responses you haven't). Requiring that other people use food, pots, and perform somewhat competently at their job is itself not toxic, but refusing to adhere to those social norms and still expecting to do high end content is. There is a level of pettiness at which this becomes unhealthy (which Olson also covers), to say nothing of language that players can sometimes employ, but it's much easier for a company to control and police the language people use in game, than it is to control or police social norms they develop.

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I don't do hardcore content in the first place, so I don't care about these supposed "social norms" which are effectively made up rules at the end of the day not stated or enforced by Square-Enix beyond weirdly defined terms in the ToS (to which I wonder if TwiceDamned is trying to show how the rules contradict themselves with regards to who is impacting who), and this Olson person sounds annoying if they're making video essays over trying to justify DPS meters, so I'd rather not taint my YouTube recommendations.

All you've really done is serve to remind that even if I had the skills and knowledge for hardcore content, I would never want to do it with hardcore players because they always come off as some miserable employment agency trying to convince me to apply for a 2nd job, and rather then stopping and asking themselves if the demands of the content make any sense (or are even fun), they continue whining about how they can't perfectly curate their work shift to give them 7 unicorn coworkers.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

HEY!

BUDDY!

Don't say that!

That's not very gnarly of you, brah!

Be nice .. or the wolf has to come out.

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He already has, on this side of the situation.

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Originally Posted by theunhappypotato

nah its totally legit to kick someone out of my own party who holds the party back, not matter what game ff14 included

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Then you report the "bad player" for obstructing you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Terhix

There exists no future in which raiding scene in XIV does not use dps meters, having one built-in into the game would only bring information parity to all players. Again, I strongly recommend watching that Dan Olson's talk (which given the timeline of responses you haven't). Requiring that other people use food, pots, and perform somewhat competently at their job is itself not toxic, but refusing to adhere to those social norms and still expecting to do high end content is. There is a level of pettiness at which this becomes unhealthy (which Olson also covers), to say nothing of language that players can sometimes employ, but it's much easier for a company to control and police the language people use in game, than it is to control or police social norms they develop.

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Then you report people who don't.

In fact, to respond to the "we don't want people to tell you to uninstall", that's EXACTLY what the "It's Rude To Suck At..." crowd is demanding, and the TOS of FFXIV would back it up if it didn't require actions and mechanisms contrary to same.

In that world, it would not only be rude, but, because it is rude, it would also be illegal.

How about no?
SE should shut websites like this all together.

Oh yeah, sure. Let's all disband quietly & nicely, then add the problematic players' names into some public burn/avoid list, because that's totally ain't gonna happen beyond the curtain. You won't even know whether you're blacklisted in-game.

/s

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TwiceDamned

Then you report the "bad player" for obstructing you.

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why would i go through all the efford it is to report a person in this game or any game when i can just kick em out of my party without saying a word and waiting for the next person to join

Honestly too people stress over "you don't hit this part of the lparse or logs" you msut not be a good player. Its liek teh act add on. TOo many people stress over dps numbers "what was my dps at? hwo much damage did i deal?" like really we are doing a trial at content and call outs, and you are worry about your DPS numbers. I hav ekicked people who go we arent dealing the right damage "X needs ot have better gear" so i kicked them after warning them about stressing over numbers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Oh yeah, sure. Let's all disband quietly & nicely, then add the problematic players' names into some public burn/avoid list, because that's totally ain't gonna happen beyond the curtain. You won't even know whether you're blacklisted in-game.

/s

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actually if you are blacklisted by taht person and you try to join the pf you get a message window popping up that you can't join that PF

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Oh yeah, sure. Let's all disband quietly & nicely, then add the problematic players' names into some public burn/avoid list, because that's totally ain't gonna happen beyond the curtain. You won't even know whether you're blacklisted in-game.

/s

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Personally, I'd rather be shadow-blacklisted by people like you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by theunhappypotato

why would i go through all the efford it is to report a person in this game or any game when i can just kick em out of my party without saying a word and waiting for the next person to join

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Because the person has obstructed your gameplay and progress through the TOS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Underscore

This raid tier, particularly M10S, has radicalized me into firmly believing that yes, logging should be officially implemented/allowed and even made mandatory for all players in high end content. Tomestone should effectively be added to the game itself, and you should be able to right-click on someone in party finder to see their prog point for a given fight. You should not be allowed to hide this information. Party Finder should have features to automatically filter players from even joining your party based on their prog point similar to item level requirements.

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I agree that logging should be implemented in the game just so non-modders and console players can record their prog. But I don't think PF should be able to restrict based on prog point. Some players are able to simply study future mechanics, and prog lie their way to enrage while making few or no mistakes. I know one player who prog lied through arena split and ecliptic in M11S, by studying those easy mechanics and quickly reaching enrage, and he was able to clear the fight the day after.

Though one way to vet whether the PF got a 'prog liar' who is studious and consistent, the in game logging system should also record the number of deaths for each pull, and to what attack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

actually if you are blacklisted by taht person and you try to join the pf you get a message window popping up that you can't join that PF

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Do they? Now that's quite an improvement to the system, I'll say that much. But my point stands: if X player is problematic enough (whether thru 'funny numbers' or in general), they will be shunned regardless through other means. Leaving or disbanding quietly and nicely are not to be taken as "you're not the problem", it just means that the offender would have less precise idea what could be causing that. I get that such tools really aren't being used as wisely as they should (I would oppose it, too), but these 'offenders' also needs to find out to have better chances at rectifying themselves. The community SE fostered renders this means of improvement too muddled to be conducive, henceforth are we surprised that people starts gatekeeping to look after their own sanity?