Remove Rescue from the game.

Trade offer:

I receive; Not being pulled into certain death.

You receive; No more of my ire.

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Originally Posted by Kelg

Dragging players around senselessly isn't really a good example of something to do. How about they make the healer rotation more than just 2 buttons? That would be a more healthy way to improve the healer experience than allowing them to kill their party members with rescue and ruin the other person's fun.

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Probably. But they don't seem to be doing that any time soon. So until then, lets not make healing suck even more.

Also i think in my several years of playing I've only seen someone kill another with rescue once, and it was an accident. I don't think this is an issue in any huge amount that couldn't be solved with like. Words or a report of they were genuinely trying to kill you.

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Originally Posted by Aviatorhead

I can understand the pov of both sides but, I will not budge on this, you canot take it out without replacing it with something either just as good or better. I am sick to bastard death of my fave jobs being picked apart and dumbed down. It cannot keep happening.

Also, you cannot include an 'opt out' because that means in duties where your entire team is rescue proof, or even just half and they're all the people who would need it, you don't have rescue anymore & it's the same as removing it.

So either leave it be or add in something that is the same level of engagement.

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Even if it was a teleport with 5 seconds of invulnerability, it would still be possible to grief with it, so it still wouldn't be enough for them.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

So many people don't wanna say what they really wanna say, which is; "Nooo don't take away my ability to kill other players with the plausible deniability of trying to help them!"

Let's not pretend for a second that rescue is anything more than a pk tool in random parties.

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It's certainly telling that a few players, even when the offer is made to replace Rescue with a skill that does the same thing (save a person from damage at range) but WITHOUT the yanking around, they still insist on wanting Rescue anyway.

Now what possible part of Rescue are they so adamant to keep access to? Hmm...

"Lets not make healing suck even more by removing a skill that has nothing to do with healing!"

Fine, every healer gets a WHM dash. You wanna fling someone across the arena? Fling yourself!

If that's not good enough then you're just being a little too transparent about wanting to keep your favorite PK tool.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

It's certainly telling that a few players, even when the offer is made to replace Rescue with a skill that does the same thing (save a person from damage at range) but WITHOUT the yanking around, they still insist on wanting Rescue anyway.

Now what possible part of Rescue are they so adamant to keep access to? Hmm...

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What kind of replacement skill would you propose that both accomplishes the same job as Rescue (if used correctly) but doesn't affect the person's position and can't be used to grief? I'm curious.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

What kind of replacement skill would you propose that both accomplishes the same job as Rescue (if used correctly) but doesn't affect the person's position and can't be used to grief? I'm curious.

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Holmgang.

/10char

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

"Lets not make healing suck even more by removing a skill that has nothing to do with healing!"

Fine, every healer gets a WHM dash. You wanna fling someone across the arena? Fling yourself!

If that's not good enough then you're just being a little too transparent about wanting to keep your favorite PK tool.

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Its funny because one of the most common suggestions on how to fix healer has Nothing to do with healing as it would be to give them actual fun damage skills to manage, Now like it or not its already a established argument that we should add/keep non heal related tools on healer. So your logic questioning why healers want to keep a support skill already makes zero sense.

No, not all healers need some dash, Scholar can speed boost the entire team, Astro can instant cast a lot they already have their own mobility, Rescue doesn't even function anything like a self dash as its intended purpose is to get people out of bad positions, not yourself.

People want to keep it because its actually useful, sure people use it to grief or troll rarely but you can grief and troll by shirking allies and turning off tank stance, you can grief by not doing damage and putting AOEs on people as DPS, Just because a tool CAN be used for griefing doesn't make it a bad tool.

I guess because FF14 is so squeaky clean with its "balance" now that a ability like even rescue is being called into question, This is why we can't have good job design because people want to prune anything that they don't personally like but other people do like.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

So many people don't wanna say what they really wanna say, which is; "Nooo don't take away my ability to kill other players with the plausible deniability of trying to help them!"

Let's not pretend for a second that rescue is anything more than a pk tool in random parties.

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But I've literally used rescue to save someone from a bad position, where are you running into legions of healers who troll random people with rescue? I don't even remember the last time I was rescued by a random person that ended up putting me in a bad position, sure friends have done it as a joke in a casual dungeon but this generally just doesn't happen with people or even in any serious content.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

"Lets not make healing suck even more by removing a skill that has nothing to do with healing!"

Fine, every healer gets a WHM dash. You wanna fling someone across the arena? Fling yourself!

If that's not good enough then you're just being a little too transparent about wanting to keep your favorite PK tool.

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I haven't killed anyone with rescue before. And I'm not talking about healing the action but playing healers in general.

Please stop being over inflammatory, I literally only disagreed with you lol.

All the griefing you listed are painfully obvious forms of trolling, rescue isn't which is the problem with it, and that's part of why people have been asking for it's removal or an option to opt out of it since it's inception, alongside people not liking having control of their character taken from them at another players discretion.

If your anecdotes are valid, then so are mine because every time I've personally been rescued in DF it's been at best pointless and annoying, and at worst the cause of my death.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

What kind of replacement skill would you propose that both accomplishes the same job as Rescue (if used correctly) but doesn't affect the person's position and can't be used to grief? I'm curious.

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As I said in my post, give them an absurdly hefty shield or a 90% DR for a 2 to 3 seconds. This would require the healer to have good timing and knowledge of the fight. So it allows the skill expression crowd to puff their chests while not causing the other players a problem. It allows the "I must save them!" crowd to save folks without taking away someone's autonomy. It gives absolutely psychotic tank and healer duos another tool for doing absurd dungeon pulls. Gives Savage Raiders a new way to cheese stuff. I can't think of anyone who loses in this change, except the people who use rescue with malicious intent. And those people deserve to lose.

"But they still get a vuln!" Yeah, and they learned that hit gives a vuln and you got to save them from dying. Win Win imo. Plus, in 95% of content...a single vuln is not going to cause the entire run to collapse. "But it's a skill that rarely if ever sees use!" One, that's utter BS and you know it. People would not be this against or annoyed of a skill that 'rarely if ever sees use'. It's used a lot, just maybe not as much by you. Two, this change would likely make it see MORE use that is beneficial to the party as a whole. I could rant all day about this. I won't. But boy howdy I could.

An ability that removes a players agency and gives it to another player, is and will always be, a dumb idea. Rescue doesn't work as intended 99% of the time, and 99% of rescue attempts aren't genuine rescues anyway. Its just a troll ability.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

All the griefing you listed are painfully obvious forms of trolling, rescue isn't which is the problem with it, and that's part of why people have been asking for it's removal or an option to opt out of it since it's inception, alongside people not liking having control of their character taken from them at another players discretion.

If your anecdotes are valid, then so are mine because every time I've personally been rescued in DF it's been at best pointless and annoying, and at worst the cause of my death.

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I've only been rescued a few times outside of savage (where-in I actively asked to be rescued because the mechanic wanted me to do something really impractical and rescue was the best solution) and I can't think of a time where I died as a result, usually my reaction is "Oh, okay thanks" only a couple of times where I've known I was safe by a couple of pixels have I thought "aww, aren't you adorable", it sounds to me like people in your region are just doing it horrendously wrong.

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Originally Posted by Aviatorhead

Also, you cannot include an 'opt out' because that means in duties where your entire team is rescue proof, or even just half and they're all the people who would need it, you don't have rescue anymore & it's the same as removing it.

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LOL. So you foresee entire duties of people opting out of being rescued, which would mean it's not an effect most players want cast on them.

Think a little.

I'm not wasting GCDs on DPS dying to random stuff and/or being way lower than the rest of the party. The main people who want Rescue gone are people who are that bad at mechanics or straight up think their greed is worth it, somehow. Or enjoy having DPS to babysit. I do not.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

I'm not wasting GCDs on DPS dying to random stuff and/or being way lower than the rest of the party. The main people who want Rescue gone are people who are that bad at mechanics or straight up think their greed is worth it, somehow. Or enjoy having DPS to babysit. I do not.

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So instead you are going to babysit them by watching for uses of Rescue. Got it.

Rescue is an OGCD and can be weaved without affecting my healing. Typically, I just let DPS die to their own ineptitude though, because they gotta learn one way or the other. But if I need them alive, rescue is always better than healing them, because I need my healing for actual regular instances of damage and again, I'm not wasting GCDs on them. Moreover, I'm also not hardressing DPS, because again, they gotta learn.

For the record, this is for DF only. In PF content, obviously I will raise, but I will not rescue because that's a hassle and I'm bad at the switcheroo thing where you rescue them to their spot and then rush to yours. Still working on it. But if a healer rescues me in a mind-numbingly boring EX because I am spacing out? Or even if I am not but they mean well, regardless of success? I'll be grateful!

This whole thread reminds me of a situation in LOTA once, I saw a DPS unwilling to detach from Behemoth, so I walk back a little to compensate for the fact Rescue places them in front of you and not on you, and hit them with Rescue with about 1 and a half second on the Meteor cast, they live, but take the moment to go in chat "I can do the mechanic myself", and, alright, perhaps should've trust them, I mean greeding should be encouraged so people learn to do it properly and all... anyway they died to the second Meteor, fun times.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Rescue is an OGCD and can be weaved without affecting my healing. Typically, I just let DPS die to their own ineptitude though, because they gotta learn one way or the other. But if I need them alive, rescue is always better than healing them, because I need my healing for actual regular instances of damage and again, I'm not wasting GCDs on them. Moreover, I'm also not hardressing DPS, because again, they gotta learn.

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It's your own ineptitude if your letting your DPS die on purpose as a healer because you can't be bothered. You barely have to use your tools in most forms of content so it's not like you'll need to GCD save a DPS most of the time, and using a GCD to save someone is a damage gain, I'll even use clemency to save a DPS if I have to.

I don't get the ego about not healing players for making mistakes but also playing the support role, you signed up to protect and support your allies when queuing for healer or tank, Play DPS if you don't want to help keep people up for making mistakes. It feels like the same weird mentality of "you pull you tank" like HOW dare someone pull ahead I'm the tank, for that I'll not tank anymore. I just don't get why people need some weird ego about being better then everyone else and griefing your team because you don't like they made a mistake or did something you don't like. Most people wont learn from being downed infact if you refuse to rez them they will not be learning much at all.

Lastly but as I'll point out as your not against rescue that I do think its a good cooldown to help people know "yeah you should be not standing there" rather then simply healing a player. Rescue is a very good teaching tool which to your point of they've got to learn, this actually achieves in a effective way.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Lastly but as I'll point out as your not against rescue that I do think its a good cooldown to help people know "yeah you should be not standing there" rather then simply healing a player. Rescue is a very good teaching tool which to your point of they've got to learn, this actually achieves in a effective way.

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Getting damaged and getting a Vuln stack and even dying also accomplishes teaching someone that they shouldn't have been standing somewhere, more effective than rescue which may just disorient someone new to a duty.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Its funny because one of the most common suggestions on how to fix healer has Nothing to do with healing as it would be to give them actual fun damage skills to manage, Now like it or not its already a established argument that we should add/keep non heal related tools on healer. So your logic questioning why healers want to keep a support skill already makes zero sense.

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That because asking for the robust healer kit to actually be fully utilized in most content requires tanks have their sustain be nerfed into the ground and/or increase the standard difficulty of low end content. Both garner vastly more ire than asking for an actual damage rotation since that doesn't change how the game plays for everyone that isn't a healer.

(My personal recommendation is to nerf tank sustain because that was never necessary in older content at all skill levels when I actually mained healer. Right now tanks are way too strong.)

Anyway, Rescue is still bad. There hasn't been a single argument for it yet that justifies it existing over a very powerful sheild we can toss on endangered players as several of us have suggested.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I don't get the ego about not healing players for making mistakes but also playing the support role, you signed up to protect and support your allies when queuing for healer or tank, Play DPS if you don't want to help keep people up for making mistakes. It feels like the same weird mentality of "you pull you tank" like HOW dare someone pull ahead I'm the tank, for that I'll not tank anymore. I just don't get why people need some weird ego about being better then everyone else and griefing your team because you don't like they made a mistake or did something you don't like. Most people wont learn from being downed infact if you refuse to rez them they will not be learning much at all.

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Honestly, if anything it's more of an ego boost keeping alive someone who's decided to collect vuln stacks like candy vs just letting them die, plus it gives a bored healer something to do other than just pressing 1111111 with a break every 30s to press 3 or whatever you have your DoT mapped to. I've said before I actually prefer healing dungeons where my party is a little bit bad at the game or just new because it makes things more interesting and actually has me pressing my buttons.

Anyway, to the actual topic at hand- if you don't want to get rescued, don't stand in the bad. If someone is rescuing to intentionally grief you, report them. If someone rescued you with good intentions but either fell a bit short on the "actually helping" part or you simply don't want them to use it on you, a "hey please dont do that again" can go a long way. If you're intentionally going to greed - tell them "im gonna greed here dw i know what im doing" or something along those lines. Shockingly, communication can go a long way rather than stewing in indignation and then whimpering on the forums about it later.
And if you want to justify crashing out at someone using rescue on you, play black mage.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

That because asking for the robust healer kit to actually be fully utilized in most content requires tanks have their sustain be nerfed into the ground and/or increase the standard difficulty of low end content. Both garner vastly more ire than asking for an actual damage rotation since that doesn't change how the game plays for everyone that isn't a healer.

(My personal recommendation is to nerf tank sustain because that was never necessary in older content at all skill levels when I actually mained healer. Right now tanks are way too strong.)

Anyway, Rescue is still bad. There hasn't been a single argument for it yet that justifies it existing over a very powerful sheild we can toss on endangered players as several of us have suggested.

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I think tank kits are overtuned, I don't think its 100% on the sustain side, mayhaps warrior But I do think there needs to be a big tuning down on some sustain example Removing magic healing the PLD but keeping H-Sheltron regen Is a good compromise, Nerfing sustain potency is somewhat needed in general.

Mitigation plays a big part into why tanks are so invincible and never need healing (outside warrior getting a benediction on 25s cooldown that lasts 8s), passive 20% mitigation likely needs to be nerfed along side sustain, To compensate for harder content & fights buff some of healers single target mitigations so tanks can still survive things.

I just want to be very careful about the sustain nerfing as I think a lot of tanks enjoy some level of self heal as its another active way of tanking, but we can likely agree that at the very least it shouldn't stay at its current levels.


As for rescue , your generally just advocating for it to change because it has room to mess up, I think that's fine on some skills, If the arguement is "it feels bad to be rescued" over a powerful shield then that's understandable, I think a Shield like that could very quickly be used to hyper mitigate players on things like tank busters and can be used in a lot of cheese situations if not handled correctly, I'm not fully against that idea over rescue though.

I personally don't see any reason to not remove rescue, other then "it feel bad for me" which is very subjective, I think this game has suffered too much for people complaining and whining about something having room for error, this is why we can't have Black mage with long casts and timers, because theirs actual room to mess up your job if your not playing it correctly, I think room to mess up is perfectly fine in a game like FF14.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I personally don't see any reason to not remove rescue, other then "it feel bad for me" which is very subjective, I think this game has suffered too much for people complaining and whining about something having room for error, this is why we can't have Black mage with long casts and timers, because theirs actual room to mess up your job if your not playing it correctly, I think room to mess up is perfectly fine in a game like FF14.

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They changed Black Mage cast times because they decided they didn't want to design encounters around them. Not people complaining. A lot of people liked having longer cast times.

I was just "rescued" while I was using LB as melee for absolutely no reason but trolling. Remove rescue or let me opt out of rescue, I don't want to deal with this anymore.

Rescue is a unique, interesting ability that has allowed me and a co-healer to do things such as rescuing each other in p10s to cancel the other getting knocked back and then LB3 when the group failed to make the barrier in Harrowing Hell.

Or yoinking my tank to the teleporter in the current Extreme so he has more time to make it there after taking his tower solo.

No. We're already in job homogenization hell, so let's not.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

They changed Black Mage cast times because they decided they didn't want to design encounters around them. Not people complaining. A lot of people liked having longer cast times.

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I'm pretty sure a big reason why timers was changed WAS because it was seen as annoying to people because any sense of friction to them is bad.

Cast times, debatably didn't even need to be changed for encounters. Partly it was changed because people complained about them, but they did likely see encounters "benefitting" for blm to change.

what kinda parties do some people here play in that they get rescue killed so often lmao

Me think they should add the opposite of a rescue. Like a knockback. Let me push away players that keep following me when we have to spread

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Originally Posted by Wawaya

Me think they should add the opposite of a rescue. Like a knockback. Let me push away players that keep following me when we have to spread

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Malediction of Water, sadly locked to BLU.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I Snip it.

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Nerfing tanks sustain/mit and replacing Rescue with a very powerful mitigation ability healers can use to resist tank busters and emergencies is actually the exact kind of thing many healers are actually asking for.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Malediction of Water, sadly locked to BLU.

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.... Used to be a White Mage spell.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I'm pretty sure a big reason why timers was changed WAS because it was seen as annoying to people because any sense of friction to them is bad.

Cast times, debatably didn't even need to be changed for encounters. Partly it was changed because people complained about them, but they did likely see encounters "benefitting" for blm to change.

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They specifically said in the patch notes that it was to accommodate the increased speed of high-end fights.

+1 to opting out.

It seems some number of people have these very niche scenarios they like having Rescue for non-trolling uses. For the rest of us, let us opt out.

Fun fact, arms length cancels it out

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Originally Posted by Daralii

What kind of replacement skill would you propose that both accomplishes the same job as Rescue (if used correctly) but doesn't affect the person's position and can't be used to grief? I'm curious.

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Didn't healers use to have Protect and Shell? Just repurpose them and put them back in. Could even keep the physical/magical split so said healer has to pay attention to WHICH barrier they throw out. (IE: Protect won't save someone from magic damage.) Or hell, even split them between jobs. (WHM and AST with Protect, SCH and SGE with Shell, or whatever other combination you want.)

They want to be engaged? They hate the brain-deadness of it all? They want "job diversity"? Fine then, here's a tool that makes them "think" while giving them TWO buttons instead of one for the same function, or otherwise requires two different kinds of healers to cover both defense types in relevant content where both damage types are going out consistently.

Could even use it as an excuse to take away some of the party barriers from tanks to further increase the value of it. Said tanks are always demanding they be able to keep their self/party-heals, right? Surely they won't miss the party barriers that some of them barely even use anyway (looking at you, Cover and Passage of Arms).

And if any tanks complain about losing their party barriers while insisting they keep their self/party heals too? Well, now you have proof that they're just greedy and don't actually care about healers being rendered vestigial. Give and take, and its time tanks gave up SOMETHING if Square-Enix is going to insist the support roles share functions. #MakeGreenMageValid

That's what the Balrog did to Gandalf I think.

You've been hit by the same mechanic 3 times in a row. I don't trust your Shukuchi nor your ability to identify danger.
https://imgur.com/BkhZ8Hm.png

Not two days ago in Alexandria I got someone who died every single time the first boss did the combo mechanic, and then at least three times in the two subsequent fights. You know why he didn't die one more time in those fights?? Because I rescued him. I've seen people learn in real time. Get hit twice, get rescued once, then never make the same mistake again.

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Originally Posted by Alicie

Fun fact, arms length cancels it out

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Yes, let me use my only charge of Arm's Length that I'm supposed to be using for uptime to combat healer trolling.