Let's just hope they don't mess up this job or do the classic MMO problem, having unbalanced classes. We shall see in 2.0!
Red Mage idea
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08-21-2012, 11:31 PMBrakapart
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08-22-2012, 03:21 AMSwordCoheirThis is true, however with the armoury system and current types of weapons currently available to GLA it does leave the Rapier, Sabre, Epee, Degen type weapons completely open for use. This is probably because Musketeer was initially being developed back in the Alpha and Beta stages of 1.0 and they had originally reserved those type of weapons specifically for the class. With that being said I have no doubt if they were going to release RDM it would more than likely be grown off of Musketeer though it may or may not be renamed Fencer for all extended purposes unless they intend on making Musketeer a ranged user fully reliant on Guns like Bows with Archer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yrusama
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08-22-2012, 07:13 AMDuelleNot necessarily. PUG stances are more to overcome the issue MNK had in XI with melee-resistant opponents (really, the stances are basically Formless Blow but with elemental flavoring instead). Enspells should and have been about making up for the damage you lack compared to the big hitter jobs. In theory it's supposed to supplement your melee, not replace it to get around defence mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by AceofRains
One of the suggestions in the design thread was built around that idea. Fencer learning enspells in the form of Brands (Firebrand, Icebrand, etc), and then Red Mage getting the ability Magic Sword, which would allow them to insta-cast a nuke based on the elemental brand they have up.
And now, some fun with photoshop: a) Fencer b) Red Mage
...blame the guy that made this. >.> -
08-22-2012, 08:14 AMEremor
Some really really really old data, I don't even remember where it was from or if it was credible or not, certainly isn't relevant to the current build of the game much less 2.0.
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...f14classes.jpg
But hey look, Fencer and Musketeer as separate classes.
Just an attempt to stifle the Musketeer -> Red Mage enthusiasts. Sorry, but it just won't work, it would be even worse then Archer -> Bard. Musketeer is obviously ranged DPS whereas Red Mage is anything but. -
08-22-2012, 09:10 AMVirin
You can fix the haste problem by doing either what the other poster said and have it reset cooldowns or if that is too OP decrease cooldown times by x% or to save the class from being a haste-bot make it a self-only buff. Make it cost 2000 or 3000 tp and incease weapon speed by x% on the rdm.
or don't give them haste. Let haste sit and wait for time mage where it belongs
only reason i suggested to make it sort of a evasion/debuff tank was if it came off gld
if it comes off a new fencer/scout then a dd/debuff would be cool. In parties you could bring thief (not in game yet but if it does end up in game) or rdm. they could be totally unique classes but still fall under a dd/debuff role in parties.
/edit
to expand on that a bit. rdm would be extra elemental damage with enspells and thief could be extra bleed damage. -
08-22-2012, 01:56 PMPSxpert2011Because Bard (in XIV) originates from Archer means the developers have a dream for this MMO already ing the making with the approval of Yoshi-P(or is it the other way around?) Anywayz, I hope it's planed out nicely for ever fantasy there's a reasonable explanation: It's "High Fantasy".Quote:
Originally Posted by Delila
Where we deliberate whether Red Mages original design should be of a Musketeer and Musketeers are fencers by class can be so convoluted it make my head explode! I think let Rdm be what they are and let Musketeers be of another role... but that would be betrayal, don't you think?
How about this! Let's cross examine the Bard job for a sec! Why they never introduced a musical class is beyond me but I think it has to do with popular folk-lore and FF-stylish concepts. It wasn't ever expected either! They never introduced "musician", right? Why need to add a fencer class??
Make Rdm originate from musketeer and that's that or else add gun-blades to the world and make create a gunner class for Musketeer and Rdm can be a fencer.
Nun-chucks for Nuns! :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Yves
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08-23-2012, 05:20 AMDuelleArcher => Bard has a precedent, which is why it isn't that bad. Musketeer I believe is being used in the romantic sense than realistically. Musketeers are guys that use muskets. They did have melee weapons to fall back on, but they were primarily mounted ranged soldiers (wikipedia refers to them as the precursor of the modern rifleman).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eremor
Yes, we have Aramis, Athos, D'Artagnan and Porthos to thank for the flair and whatnot, but RDM borrows from that aesthetic of the French Musketeer alone. Speaking of which, I'd like the AF to borrow from the tabard "look" that was used in FFXI, if possible. Conversely, the body could use the model of the GC overcoat and be altered to resemble a justacorps. -
08-23-2012, 05:43 AMAshenspireBecause hybrid classes aren't very good at any single thing they do. They're very mediocre at best. People that play hybrids and enjoy them tend to be bad players, but this way they have an excuse as it's built in the class to no do very good damage/healing/etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by rina_inverse
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08-23-2012, 05:46 AMShivenCasullSounds like a biased opinion there...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
Hybrids are popular because they can do anything. (Even if it's not well.) Red Mages are also iconic from the very first final fantasy. -
08-23-2012, 05:54 AMDawiichanIt's more towards the importance of utility, which Red Mage is based off of. Though you know, people that don't understand the importance of utility "tend to be bad players."Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivenCasull
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08-23-2012, 06:21 AMDuelleUtility is nice, but there's a line to be drawn for it. XI's Red Mage felt more like the bastard child of a time mage and oracle rather than a Red Mage. Some even called it Pink Mage based on how people used the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawiichan
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08-23-2012, 06:31 AMAshenspire
1) I was being sarcastic. Sorry you didn't pick it up.
2) What Utility is necessary in this game that isn't already there? Yeah, RDMs could make mobs more vulnerable to, say, lightning damage, but they'd have to A) increase all the other BLMs damage and B) do enough damage themselves to make it worthwhile, otherwise you'd just bring another BLM instead. Sure, RDMs would probably be able to spot heal as well, but again, between PLD, BRD, and WHM, there's already enough spot healing.
Yes, I understand everything is up for grabs in ARR, but a lot of people get stuck in this "They're hybrids and should be able to do everything okay" instead of "They're a mix of magic and physical, but they do this one thing ridiculously well that makes them invaluable." The "iconic" Red Mage never did this. -
08-23-2012, 06:32 AMDawiichanDon't get me wrong, I thought RDM in XI was done extremely wrong. However that doesn't mean that keeping the same essence = automatically XI RDM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
1) You need to learn how to use sarcasm on your writing. Lacking on how to use it is not useful since it's already hard to read it from someone that knows how to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
2) That's the thing, you lack different understanding of utility than bringing a "unique" thing to the party. A BLM can magic DD, a Bard can support, a DRG can physical DD. However they are locked to that certain aspect to their character(except bard which only does loldmg on higher end content). However, having the ability to play multiple roles has already been proven as useful. Take monk for example. The job can do both Magical/Physical DD. Use it in Garuda, it automatically becomes a Chirada/Suprana bane. However it's a given that BLM will deal more magical damage than a monk does. You don't have to be superior in a single aspect to be invaluable.
I mean, your statement is flawed just by the aspects you've stated. My guess is that you are an FFXI player because you're bringing up the horrible RDM playstyle which FFXI had. Why is it that RDM has to only be a support/healer? It completely ignores the other two roles which it is supposed to also carry, which is damage dealing with both physical and magical damage.
Considering the fact that Jobs will be locked on certain content (such as hamlet and skirmish). Then the fact that you sign up on Content Finder as a certain job, the ability to have access to multiple playstyles (Chirada/Suprana, or Nael Hard mode) can easily become extremely valuable. -
08-23-2012, 06:51 AMAshenspire
Actually, I've never played FFXI. My point is, if it's a hybrid, it can't be a "carry", as you've so put it, otherwise why bring pure DD classes that bring none of the so-called Utility you speak of? RDM would be something similar to Paladin in WoW. The slightest changes/nerfs/buffs to the class itself can manifest in horrendous overpowered/underpowered performance in a hybrid class. In order for RDM to be viable, yes they will have their rapiers and their magic, but they're not going to, and honestly shouldn't be able to, out DD a DRG/MNK/BLM, and they shouldn't be able to outheal a WHM.
So, what does that leave? The utility. And, like I've said previously, if their utility in the forms of buffs/debuffs with damage/healing don't make it worth bringing a RDM over another DRG/MNK/BLM/WHM, then they'll never be a viable class. Don't get me wrong, I want to see a RDM in this game. The aesthetic of the class is just way too awesome. The difficulty comes in how they are implemented. Honestly? My idea of a RDM would be take the Fencer class from Tactics Advance, and the RDM abilities would be Saboteur/Synergist abilities from FFXIII with, of course, Double Cast as it's something of a staple of the job now. -
08-23-2012, 07:00 AMDawiichanOk, I guess I'm going to have to go more into depth for you to understand. You don't have to carry someone to become useful. You're thinking about it too one sided. Have you don't the BLM faction leve? While it's purely magical based, making it carry one aspect, it still kind of depicts what the capabilities of the job can do. Three flans at the start, one can only be hurt by fire, one by ice and one by lightning. In this one fight, you need 3 different aspects to complete the first section. Then after those 3, you fight the princess which changes into those 3 aspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
For the purpose of this example, lets say BLM can only deal lightning damage, a MNK can deal fire and a DRG can deal ice damage. However Red Mage can deal both lightning, fire, and ice, yet not at the full power which BLM, MNK and DRG can. So when the fight of the 3 flans come in, the DRG, BLM, and MNK class obviously excel at it than the Red Mage. But when the princess appears, who will be the most useful? BLM can't do anything until the princess goes into her lightning-weak form. MNK can't do anything until she's in her fire-weak form. However RDM can deal damage at all times.
See what I mean? The game doesn't have to have a linear system as it does now. Take Garuda for Relic as another example. When the sisters appear, you need both physical and magical damage. However they increase the amount of damage to three-fold. In Garuda for relic, you can't have anybody die, this sudden increase in damage can become detrimental. This brings the importance of a flexible class that can not only deal both forms of damage, yet also support/heal. Yes, flexibility is a form of utility.
EDIT: BTW, I'm using carry as it's literal sense. Not like it is used in Moba games. -
08-23-2012, 07:02 AMShivenCasullHybrids should be able to fill a role in a party (as a dedicated healer or dedicated DD) if they're going to have a purpose. It's a matter of resource management on the developers part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
This isn't WoW, class stacking and the problems that arose from "hybrids vs pure" won't be drastic since everyone can switch jobs. -
08-23-2012, 07:19 AMAshenspireSo who do you replace in your faction leve scenario? The BLM? The DRG? MNK? So the princess is now a bit easier because a hybrid, who isn't a pure damage dealer, can do their mediocre damage during all phases. But the first phase is tougher, as everyone has to wait for the hybrid who, again, not a pure damage dealer, has to deal with their flan while 2 people just sit there and do nothing. It's a hypothetical situation, but you bring up a good point, which is what I've been trying to make. Balance. Where do you draw that line?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawiichan
And no. A hybrid should NEVER EVER EVER be able to fill a role in a party as a dedicated healer/dd as if they CAN do that, then there is never a reason to bring a dedicated healer/dd that can't also bring the utility that a hybrid can. Even if they are a dedicated healer, they have damage abilities. Even if they are a DD, they can bring healing. See the issue there?
Everyone want's RDMs to come in here dealing awesome damage with their sword, and awesome damage with their magic, all while keeping their party topped off in health, and it's just not a thing that should ever happen. A RDM, imo, should make everyone around them stronger, similar to a BRD, but in different ways. Haste, Deprotect, Imperil, these are the things I'd like to see from the RDM. These things should increase the damage/healing of the entire party to an extent that it's more beneficial for the party to bring a RDM instead of another DD that can do more damage than the RDM is doing itself + the increases they're giving to the party. Do you understand, now, what I'm saying? -
08-23-2012, 07:24 AMShivenCasullYou should not jump to extreme conclusions. What I meant is: a RDM can heal as well as a WHM (If it's all he spends MP on) a RDM should be able to DD as well as any other DD. They would all bring their individual utility. WHM's that don't have to cure all the time already spend their MP dealing damage. All you're saying RDM should be is a buff-bot, which is why the RDM is mistreated so widely by the XI community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
It would be a grevious error on SE's part if they allowed RDM to do this. In a perfect world a RDM would not have enough MP to deal high magic damage and keep dedicated heals on a tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
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08-23-2012, 07:28 AMAltanas
When I think about being a Hybrid, I also start thinking about Class (Solo Play) v Job (Party Play)
If I was a Fencer, I'm just concerned about my damage output really, so enspells galore would be fine.
If I was a Red Mage and in a party, I'd probably want to bring some buffs and debuffs to the table.
I can imagine RDM having access to Bravery and Faith to buff themselves and party members to compensate for people who say "well lets bring another pure DD instead"
I can imagine RDM having access to spells changing state of the battlefield such as Oil.
I would imagine Faith buff the blm -> Oil the mob -> Fire from BLM to make a massive explosion would more than compensate for not just having another blm. And that type of strategy would probably contribute towards this "Fine Play" thing Yoshi-P has been going on about.
I remember a long time ago we had a spell on THM? that rendered a mobs elemental alignment neutral. That would be a handy debuff for an RDM to bring to the table for certain fights so other jobs can contribute more effectively.
The whole idea of pimping out the RDM melee output would be more suited to pimping the base class (Fencer?) so they are like Steiner from FF9. That way we would actually have a defined class and defined job, one is melee orientated and one is mage orientated. When we equip the job crystal we sacrifice the melee contribution in favour of buffs/debuffs as there may be some fights or bosses where the bulk of the party will be asked to step back away from heavy AoEs -
08-23-2012, 07:34 AMDawiichanWho said that they want RDM to do awesome Magic damage, awesome Sword damage and be an amazing healer? Who said that they are taking a Healer/DDs spot? In a party, there aren't spots specified just for this. It's not like a Red Mage will only take on the healer role, it won't take on only the DD roll. You should NEVER EVER EVER play a hybrid as a single roll when doing content, doing so is only handicapping yourself. It makes the point of being a hybrid completely moot if you can't use your FULL potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
You bring up another point, which is where I think I may have written up the example incorrectly. I used the first part of it on how you're thinking of the topic. You're thinking about it as too linear. The BLM, DRG, and MNK focus on one aspect is the way of thought that makes a hybrid 100% useless. Content which focuses on just a single thing locks other jobs out, which completely defeats the purpose. The princess is the focus towards the importance a hybrid can bring to a fight. It's supposed to show how it doesn't just have to focus on one aspect, but can move on to others while the other rolls can't.
Why do you think that a monk can be more useful in Garuda that a BLM can? The fact that it isn't as limited in the fight automatically increases it's utility in the fight. A Blm can only deal damage to Garuda and Chirada. However a Monk can deal damage to Garuda, Chirada, Suprana and can deal with the plumes that appear on the south winds form. However one can't deny that a BLM can burn down Chirada much faster than a MNK can. Though that still doesn't change the fact that one can not only burn down Chirada but also help on Suprana and help take down plumes gives it more use than a BLM throughout the entire scenario instead of just a single part of the fight. -
08-23-2012, 10:37 AMDuelleWell, it causes one problem to not surface but creates another: class stacking and jobism.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivenCasull
The trade-off in the quantitative gains from having a RDM in place of a DRG or MNK has to be minimal, because if it isn't and players can figure a way to reduce the job to cure/buff-bitch again, you can bet they'll do it.
The WoW hybrid vs pure thing was more ego-driven than anything else, because the rogues, warlocks, mages and hunters that were guaranteed DPS spots in raids suddenly found their curebitches (AKA the hybrids) could suddenly measure up and compete with them for those spots. -
08-23-2012, 10:50 AMAshenspireRogues, Warlocks, Mages and Hunters could ONLY fill those roles, whereas Paladins, Druids, Warriors, Death Knights and Shamans could fill 2-3 depending on class. Anyone worth talking to never said they wanted to absolutely stomp hybrid classes on the DPS meters, but that in equal gear/skill levels, the pure DPS would come out on top. For awhile, that wasn't the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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08-23-2012, 11:04 AMDuelleAnd the guys that wanted to play as those other roles were effectively screwed out of them. I was there, so I remember pre-WotLK class dynamics. If you were a Paladin you were always healing. If you were a warrior you were always tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
Believe it or not, I am fine with minor discrepancies. I liked the idea of the mythical 5% from WotLK, because it prevented raid leaders and the community as a whole from making stupid assumptions like "the pure should always get the DPS spot because that hybrid deals less DPS". That alone was enough to "fool" the masses, even if the number crunchers could find the difference in performance.Quote:
Anyone worth talking to never said they wanted to absolutely stomp hybrid classes on the DPS meters, but that in equal gear/skill levels, the pure DPS would come out on top. For awhile, that wasn't the case.
Either way, we're restricted by the armoury system, so I expect the job to be built around the weapon, with the skills and spells complimenting the fact RDM is a melee mage. That, however, doesn't mean we shouldn't be wary of ideas that give birth to idiocy from the community. -
08-23-2012, 09:22 PMVirin
First, I am amazed the discussion is still going. Cool. Lots of good debate and ideas flowing. Too bad no one with any say will read it.
What I hope for in 2.0 is the ability to need these utility classes. Need isn't quite the right term but hear me out. What I'd like to see is that in the end game content you could go in with your "true" classes and do fine but it would be safer or maybe less stressful if you had a util class with you who could jump on any role needed at that moment.
This idea leads to a small % of people who say "Hybrids are bad and you're bad for using one." <--- I should make a meme for that
http://zipmeme.com/uploads/generated...4315165721.jpg
and done
ok back to the point. I am a huge fan of the util, hybrid class. Now, of course I usual roll tank jobs. That's what I do but I also have a hybrid because those tend to be more fun. The pure jobs to me = spam a couple skills over and over again until mobs die and move to next. When I play hybrid classes I am always watching for something else to happen. Take Pally in WoW. The original pally the pre-OP heal-bot no dps pally. Somehow I was able to take that into raids and if an OT went down or someone leeroy'd an area I could pick up the adds, if healers were struggling I could help, and the whole time I was attacking.
FFXI- same thing but with RDM. I was in the front row smacking things in the face the whole time I was haste botting and healing. It isn't hard if you can multitask and I think that is where the "bad player" comes from. I think so many people hate on hybrid players because a lot of them can't multitask that job and instead can only play it like they would play a pure class... spam a couple skills.
I for one don't want to see in 2.0 a 2h tank, whm and the rest of the party be blm for everything endgame. I will never, EVER understand how a 2h class is a tank that is poor design. If they wanted war to be tank they should have allowed them 1h axe and shields for tanking and 2h axe for DD. I don't want it to be a wow clone nor do i want it to be easy but I would like to see more of a utility desire and definately more variety in the game. It would be nice to be able to do the content with a pld as a tank or a war as a tank, with a blm dd and/or melee dd. i don't even like the brd class nor plan on playing it but I would like to see them shine as more than a buffer and never see "loldmg" used in forums again. -
08-24-2012, 01:16 AMSwordCoheir
Thing about FFXI's RDM is it had tons of things working against it, here's a few that are just the tip of the iceberg.
-Magic and Melee did not work cohesively like with BLU
-Staves became required due to their benefits pretty much overshadowing anything RDM got from Swords and Daggers, and since swapping weapons meant lost TP it threw weapon swapping out of the equation.
-Stagnation, oh Lord did they let RDM grow stagnant. No unique Enfeebles outside of merits and lolGravity II, all new buffs are self-buff, no worthwhile new spells or abilities to contribute to party play, everything worth a damn is obtained through sub-job (yes literally everything).
But there are some things that FFXIV would bring to RDM that would help deter the follies of FFXI's RDM.
-Armoury System, means we'd wear a fencing or rapier type weapon full time.
-The limitations on the amount of abilities and weaponskills obtainable would give way to some creative ways to combine aspects of RDM such as WS>WS>Spell combos or Magical WS combos (Think Stiner's Magic Sword abilities from FF9).
-The power of spells and abilities scale with your level, effectively eliminating the need to have more than a few tiers of magic and the BS skill system that plauged FFXI's RDM.
-RDM technically is somewhat pre-designed with pre-1.19's Thaumatarge, and could easily benefit from using some of the removed spells like Scourge, Banish, and Sacrifice, or using some of them as a basis in the design for RDM.
But I digress, the limitations with the Armoury system are actually a good thing in the end, it restricts what you can really do with jobs and classes, so you have to think with job/spell slot limits in mind and how that would work for or against a job. Like if they just gave RDM a Single WS combo, Single Magic combo, and a few spells here and there it would probably be Underpowered not being able to dedicate itself fully to a role. Now if you gave RDM a three or four Magic WS combos or WS combos with a spell finisher or a stance ability to turn your magic WS's into long ranged nukes that might put RDM in a bit more lovable position even if they scale back the raw damage of their abilities and spells a little. -
08-24-2012, 01:44 AMTaalAzura
Well, on top of giving RDM the other 3 en- spells that MNK doesn't have, you could also have RDM take skills from CNJ (sacred prism) so that it can buff the entire party. Giving it haste/refresh might be overpowered, but giving the whole party enthunder would be quit beneficial. Obviously skills like fists of fire would over-ride the sacred prism+en-spell combo.
EDIT: Also giving RDM Phalanx/Temper/Bar-spells could make the class useful while still contributing to fights by fighting melee. -
08-24-2012, 07:20 AMEremorhttp://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...860#post709860 :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TaalAzura
I choose not to make En-spells able to be cast on other players since I think that would cut in to some of the uniqueness of the RDM in melee (and possibly make it more efficient to simply have the RDM buff the party from the back lines). But Aoe Temper and Barrier I think would be a nice contribution. -
08-24-2012, 07:51 AMOnisakeI wouldnt' mind RDM being a tank. but what does it really gain from THM?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virin
Thunder (but no combo)
fire (but no combo)
Necrogenesis (small HP gain back from Thunder or fire)
Dark Seal (less resist on the 2 spells you can cast)
Resonance (pulling?)
Sanguine Rite (arguably the only useful subskill)
the opportunity cost of casting damage spells is huge. you're likely to do more damage (and generate more hate) with your sword combos than wasting time casting fire or thunder. (except for AoE hate from fire i guess)
if you were to throw in CNJ it becomes too close to PLD. pretty much swapping THM for MRD. and then you have to worry about sacred prism => enspell being abused.
as far as lore, it would make most sense to have GLA with THM/CNJ subs to be rdm. but you have so many skills that aren't useful i have to question what good this job could do aside from it's 5 job abilities. CNJ is arguably a far better sub than THM. but to fit the traditional RDM you'd need all 3. white magic, black magic, and melee.
similar to above GLA doesn't give a lot of useful sub traits. they are either exclusive to GLA or require you to first block with a shield. also i question why even add a seperate single handed sword class when GLA already fulfills that role. you're better off reworking the shield abilities to have a dual purpose (with and without shield) and just give GLA access to rapier style weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
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GLA as it is can only spawn a support or tank class due to many of it's abilities dependence on shield and blocking with said shield. so a major revamp to these abilities is needed before we can really think of branching out.
I also feel that a fencer class overlaps too much with GLA. as GLA can be fixed to serve the same purpose. and it's less work for the devs. I'd rather see a katana class introduced to spawn nin and sam. rather than a fencer. but if we keep with the one class one job pattern obviously fencer will be needed. But i don't think it is:
I feel rapiers are more 'thrust' and 'pierce' weapons. using LNC as a base is far more viable to bring RDM a stronger DD stance. a single handed option for LNC is not out of the question considering that GSWD is viable for GLA.
not to mention you could make RDM enfeeble based due to PIE being a main stat of LNC. sub THM/CNJ for additional spell utility and access to white/black magic.
THM would would help increase potency/range for when RDM wants to be more backline (resonance, dark seal, etc.) sanguine right helps RDM when wanting to melee. CNJ gives access to cure, SS, and Sacred Prism rounding out the class. lancer's thrust based WSs also make more sense for rapiers. Life/Power surge also give some extra utility to the class given certain situations.
job Abilities could include Scourge, Dia, bio, etc. to give it more of an enfeebling feel.
30: Bio DoT, lowers attack of target
35: Dia DoT Lowers defense of target
40: En-XXXXX changes physical attacks to XXXXX element
45: XXXXX-spike Upon taking physical damage, target takes XXXX elemental damage OR an ability that makes next attack/enfeeble spell AoE
50: fast cast - drastically reduces cast time of spells.
woudl have access to 4 elemental spells: fire, thunder, aero, stone. could potentially AoE any of those and apply the enfeebles from Aero and Stone.
3 DoT moves: Aero, Bio, Dia to supplement magic damage
Access to Lancers WSs and combos for melee damage.
access to Cure, Protect, SS and Sacred Prism as well as an en spell and a spike spell to round out defensive utility.
RDM then has a choice on focusing on enfeeble potency, damage potency, or enhancing potency. -
08-24-2012, 08:25 AMTaalAzuraIf the only buff it had was the ones i suggested, gearing it for anything but melee would be a waste of resources (unless the en- spells were enhanced by mnd, but if it's a straight elemental effect than there would be no need for non-DPS gear).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eremor
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08-24-2012, 09:13 AMDuelleBest.RDMThread. Ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eremor
I may be able to get behind Temper and Barrier, but under certain conditions. 1) Instant cast. This is non-negotiable. 2a) Affects all party members regardless of how far they are from the RDM. 100 yalm radius would also work. or 2b) Aura-type effect that originates from the RDM. If I had my way, I'd make it so the RDM gets the full benefit of the buff and everyone else gets the buff at 80% potency.Quote:
I choose not to make En-spells able to be cast on other players since I think that would cut in to some of the uniqueness of the RDM in melee (and possibly make it more efficient to simply have the RDM buff the party from the back lines). But Aoe Temper and Barrier I think would be a nice contribution.
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08-24-2012, 09:36 AMTaalAzuraThis is great! and like i said, if there's a balance issue, you can make the AoE only by using Sacred Prism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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08-24-2012, 09:42 AMEremor
Those are certainly good points, but I don't think entirely necessary. My suggestion has the spells as self-target only (like Sanguine Rite) so when Sacred Prism is used to make it aoe, it can only be centered on the RDM. The buffs are also very melee oriented so there isn't much reason to be hitting back line jobs with them.
Discussion is good, because regardless of how each of us thinks our own particular build would play, someone else may have a different opinion. And if someone finds a way to exploit something about your build that would force it into a role you don't actually want to play, you better believe that's the role RDM will end up playing. -
08-24-2012, 10:09 AMSwordCoheir
I would think it would be much easier and simpler to just implement buffs in a Bardish style, similar to the way I had it setup in the second build from the link in my sig.
FNC/MKT
Fog- Increases Evasion and Magic Evasion of party members in range.
Incantation- Increases Healing, Magic Attack, and Enfeebling potency of party members in range.
Bewilder- Decreases Enmity generated of party members in range.
RDM
Temper- Increases the attack of party members within range.
Different buffs, different niche to fill, and lets RDM get back to doin damage like BRD's can. -
08-25-2012, 10:12 AMkazaran
PErhaps rather then jsut bringing back the past MMO RDM. Then can bring back something like Green Mage. SUpports buffs, dots, whelds maces, more defense, doesn't have to be a bunny this time bu would fit if that race is brought back.
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08-25-2012, 08:12 PMTaalAzuraThe only thing with that is, a lot of people who are looking forward to playing RDM are looking forward to playing a DPS role while still having useful spells to cast (as a RDM should be).Quote:
Originally Posted by kazaran
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08-25-2012, 08:13 PMGokulo
And are looking for an iconic job, which a Green Mage isn't.
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08-25-2012, 08:32 PMAceofRains
Okay what a Red Mage needs to work in this game:
Fast Casting/Combat Casting - Make it so they can cast while attacking. Otherwise having to choose casting or attacking puts a deficiency on either action as if it's not bad enough that they don't excel at either. I say make it a "Stance that consumes TP over time like PUG's fists consume MP"
Magics - Should come from the class itself, or sub actions. You shouldn't make simple enfeebles such as poison or stun job abilities unless it's going to be ONE at best. Red Mage needs utility abilities to make it function effectively or it will fail as a job.
MP recovery - Since they are going to be attacking and casting they need to be able to recover MP effectively since they wont be recovering naturally like backline mages. I proposed a skill called translation which changes all of your accumulated TP into MP.
Enchantments - This isn't a nessesity but it will help to enhance your melee attacks for elemental damage.
I say the above because red mage will not work otherwise. Red Mage is a jack of all trades and should be built as such, not an enfeebler, nuker, enhancer, or healer, but a Melee with several utility abilities. At best it is a Damage Dealer, but with something like Fast Cast it can easily spam cures, nukes, enfeebles, or enhancements. At the very least, we do not want red mage to be sitting at the backline. -
08-26-2012, 01:48 AMkazaran
As logn as RDM doesn't become an early over pwoered unbalanced mess.
They are the earlier swashbuckler type. So their mains should be En-spells on swords. Weaking defense spells to enhance their malee, stuns, swift attack combo and leave it at that.
Leave elemental nuking to other mages and mainly blms.
Otherwise RDM will be back line again, so it's focus shoudl be minor spells to enhance sword atacks and malee weakness on mobs.
Perhaps they can have hp m p drain spells like Dancer on XI, to enhance them but also the party as long as they are enganged on the mob (s) keeping them up front. -
08-26-2012, 03:32 AMAceofRains
Technically it wouldn't nuking. I would be in favor of making blizzard and water sub skills just so red mage can have them for small extra damage against enemies. This way red mage also has an "elementalist" touch to it because it could exploit all elemental weaknesses. IF we had a free cast system they could merely throw in these spells for extra damage. It wouldn't make them OP either especially considering lower base melee damage and lower base spell damage. Make it a point to combine the two for higher damage.
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08-26-2012, 06:18 AMAlerith
There is no reason the combo system cannot make RDM work. I'm going to use pre-existing spells and sword abilities just so I don't have to make them up.
Now, give RDM Fast Blade, Flat Blade, Savage Blade, Goring Blade and Rage of Halone.
Also, give RDM Fire, Blizzard, Aero, Stone and Thunder, and only the first Tier.
Now, make combos that require using weaponskills to augment the power of the otherwise low-level spells.
Spell > WS > Spell II > WS > Spell III
Example:
Blizzard starts a combo and Fast Blade combos with it. You use Fast Blade and you can then use Fire to combo further. But now, since you are using Fire as your third combo skill, Fire becomes a single target Fira. Then Flat Blade can combo off of that and (assuming we ever get combos into the 5th stage) you can then Combo Thunder, but since Thunder is your 5th combo, it upgrades to a single target Thundaga.
This would apply no matter what combo of spells you used. A Tier I spell would start a combo, then a preset sword WS would continue the combo, then you could cast any elemental spell again and it would be at Tier II (-ra) level. Then you would use another sword WS and close with one final elemental spell, which would be Tier III level. (-ga)
EDIT:
As there needs to be obvious drawbacks that keep a single job from being overpowered, doing combos like this would either have to have a fair recast timer depending on how powerful your spells got, or they would have to chew through MP.
To go a step further, make the spells for RDM simply elemental damage without any additional effects like the BLM and WHM versions, and make them insta-cast when used in a combo. Make the recast time harsher and harsher the more powerful you make them. (Using a combo resulting in Thundaga would put a large recast on Thunder, etc.)