Chaotic is midcore, in case you were wondering

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Yes. That's literally the whole reason there are options to do relic steps outside of Bozja.

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You're conflating someone not enjoying that style of content with it being too hardcore. I know a lot of people who won't touch crafting because it's too tedious and grindy for them. That doesn't make crafting midcore content.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Yes. That's literally the whole reason there are options to do relic steps outside of Bozja.

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They explicitly stated in the live letter that this was an option for people who did not want to grind in Bozja. Because Bozja itself was an insane grind, and they knew people would not want to do that after Eureka.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

You're conflating someone not enjoying that style of content with it being too hardcore. I know a lot of people who won't touch crafting because it's too tedious and grindy for them. That doesn't make crafting midcore content.

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It either does mean crafting is midcore, or it means there's a tier of player below casual.

Y'all are basing your opinion of savage being midcore on how easy you personally think it is, but rejecting the opinions and experiences of others. So midcore is going to continue to mean nothing and the definition is going to continue to vary depending on who you ask because it's just a personal metric.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

it means there's a tier of player below casual.

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I call this tier "the average official forum poster"

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If I've learned anything, it's that it's still hard to satisfy every playstyle, but Nakagawa wanted to make sure that everyone still feels heard.

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I certainly still don't.:(

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

going back and changing the fight for it to fit in the scope of the difficulty they intended or initially set out for it to be isn't really the best approach seeing as 88K people have cleared.

They will probably just use that going forward to inform the design choices of future Chaotic raids. It's probably safe to say that this is the 'hardest' it will be for the next lot of iterations.

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This is the only thing I can think of, yeah, that they're unwilling to annoy some subset of players who tie some aspect of their self-worth to their video game accomplishments.

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Originally Posted by TemporalFruitsAndVeggies

This is the only thing I can think of, yeah, that they're unwilling to annoy some subset of players who tie some aspect of their self-worth to their video game accomplishments.

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You're projecting hard here. I hate the Chaotic fight's design (merely look at my post history and you will see proof of this) but I think that nerfing/changing it would be a terrible idea.
It is not fair to irreversibly change a piece of content that a group of people enjoys, to satisfy another group of people. All this does is reduce the enjoyment of that group for the chance of making another group happy.

It has nothing to do with some sort of "self worth" argument.

I never liked casual/midcore/hardcore labels for all those reasons. They can conflate difficulty, grind amount, hours spent, and many things together. So I'll just use tiers instead:

Tier 0: MSQ, society quests, fates, hunt trains, dungeons, alliance raids, NM raids.
Tier 1: CLL/Dalriada, BA.
Tier 2: Extremes.
Tier 3: Savage, Criterion, Chaotic.
Tier 4: Ultimates, Criterion Savage, Necromancer.

I deliberately added alliance raids and NM raids into Tier 0, because that's where they do belong even after Jeuno which isn't better than Myths of the Realm. If it was about older ones like Nier, Ivalice, Mhach (except Void Ark for which Yoshida actually apologized, for those who do remember), then I'd put them into Tier 1.
You'll notice there is nothing modern or current in Tier 1 and hasn't been for ages.
For those who do ask how I can put NM raids with society quests, I'll reply that you can literally afk inside and still clear, they only belong barely in T1 at release before first clears.

Feel free to disagree, but that's mostly how I see content difficulty/commitment.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

You're projecting hard here. I hate the Chaotic fight's design (merely look at my post history and you will see proof of this) but I think that nerfing/changing it would be a terrible idea.
It is not fair to irreversibly change a piece of content that a group of people enjoys, to satisfy another group of people. All this does is reduce the enjoyment of that group for the chance of making another group happy.

It has nothing to do with some sort of "self worth" argument.

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Nah, I've seen you around the forum a bunch, and generally agree with most things you say.

I was merely inferring from your statement that 80-something thousand people had already cleared that SE wouldn't want to offend those people by making the fight easier; the only reason that would offend anyone would be if they tied part of their self-worth to the accomplishment of clearing. I'm either misunderstanding your implication or possibly drawing the wrong conclusion here. If so, I guess I can understand why you'd think I was projecting, but I can assure you the scant few accomplishments I have in the game are entirely meaningless to me. I like the forums more than the game itself, honestly.

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Originally Posted by TemporalFruitsAndVeggies

Nah, I've seen you around the forum a bunch, and generally agree with most things you say.

I was merely inferring from your statement that 80-something thousand people had already cleared that SE wouldn't want to offend those people by making the fight easier; the only reason that would offend anyone would be if they tied part of their self-worth to the accomplishment of clearing. I'm either misunderstanding your implication or possibly drawing the wrong conclusion here. If so, I guess I can understand why you'd think I was projecting, but I can assure you the scant few accomplishments I have in the game are entirely meaningless to me. I like the forums more than the game itself, honestly.

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I'll clarify, and I felt it was important to specify that I dislike the content because I am defending its current state.

There are many people who enjoy the current Chaotic as it is. It is not fair to those people to change it, because it could turn it into something they may no longer enjoy. That is not fair to those players. It has nothing to do with self-worth in clearing, but about the fact you are changing something that people are currently enjoying into something that they may not.

Mao curious as to why people so focused on levels of difficulty. From Mao perspective, activities either funs or not funs. Boss fights in EW and now in DT are not funs for Mao. Reason is that players being stripped of agency as fights become highly scripted and is become less abouts what players can do and more abouts following the requirements of the fights. DDR sucked the funs out of the game for Mao and thus, regardless of level of difficulty, Mao just nots interested anymore.

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Originally Posted by OlafQuintessa

I think we all agree that challenging content for casuals to try that isn't extreme or savage is what the game really needs.

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I respectfully disagree.
I am casual, and am not the slightest interested in any sort of challenging content. I have a very simple rule of thumb what to do in FF14, and what to ignore: if a blue quest sends me there, I go there once, just to see the place (as the mechanics in raids are usually counter intuitive and very unfun). No blue quest - I don't go there. So no idea if chaotic is hardcore, softcore, hicore, midcore, locore, or shmonzcore - I simply don't care.
Oh, and I'm enjoying the game anyway, since I do not need to worry about homogenization of jobs, 2 minute burst windows, and all the other stuff everybody here is up in arms all the time :D

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

I'll clarify, and I felt it was important to specify that I dislike the content because I am defending its current state.

There are many people who enjoy the current Chaotic as it is. It is not fair to those people to change it, because it could turn it into something they may no longer enjoy. That is not fair to those players. It has nothing to do with self-worth in clearing, but about the fact you are changing something that people are currently enjoying into something that they may not.

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And they nerfed Orbonne while there were many players who enjoyed it the way it was.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Because it is midcore content. You can approach extreme/savage very casually and still clear while it's relevant. Ultimate is not midcore because it has gear requirements and requires a much higher degree of planning and coordination to clear.

If you're looking for duty finder-friendly content that can be beaten in one session by anyone who queues up, that's casual content.

Casual:
Dungeons, Trials, Normal Raids, Alliance Raids, Exploration Zones, Deep Dungeons, Variant Dungeons

Midcore:
Extreme, Unreal, Savage, Criterion, Chaotic

Hardcore:
Ultimate, Criterion (Savage)

There's some leeway here because a group could have a hardcore approach to savage and clear in the first few days, but generally speaking - this is the split of content in FFXIV.

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Most of those I would agree with but Savage and Chaotic. I think Savage lends closer to Hardcore bc you still need a lot of time investment to clear the fights, especially in PF and the same goes for Chaotic. That said I don't think Chaotic sololy lands in either, I think it's somewhere in the middle of mid-core to hardcore. The main reason why I say this is because of how much time it actually takes to clear this fight in a pf setting. I have finally gotten around progging it and most of my time progging has been spent in waiting in parties than the actually fight. One hour of waiting for 24 ppl to join and then after 3 or 4 wipes ppl leave and then back to waiting again. Imo mid-core content is content that can be cleared in a pf in like an evening or two, that is why I think EXs are mid-core bc most ppl I feel can clear an EX in two or three days. Savage on the other hand can take a week or more and Chaotic is more or less the same. I don't know, I just personally don't see savage and Chaotic as purely mid-core content since you do need to study some and spend a decent amount of time progging in a PF setting.

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Originally Posted by ACE135

And they nerfed Orbonne while there were many players who enjoyed it the way it was.

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For what it's worth, I have issue with this also.

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

Most of those I would agree with but Savage and Chaotic. I think Savage lends closer to Hardcore bc you still need a lot of time investment to clear the fights, especially in PF and the same goes for Chaotic. That said I don't think Chaotic sololy lands in either, I think it's somewhere in the middle of mid-core to hardcore. The main reason why I say this is because of how much time it actually takes to clear this fight in a pf setting. I have finally gotten around progging it and most of my time progging has been spent in waiting in parties than the actually fight. One hour of waiting for 24 ppl to join and then after 3 or 4 wipes ppl leave and then back to waiting again. Imo mid-core content is content that can be cleared in a pf in like an evening or two, that is why I think EXs are mid-core bc most ppl I feel can clear an EX in two or three days. Savage on the other hand can take a week or more and Chaotic is more or less the same. I don't know, I just personally don't see savage and Chaotic as purely mid-core content since you do need to study some and spend a decent amount of time progging in a PF setting.

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"Most of those I would agree with but Savage and Chaotic. I think Savage lends closer to Hardcore bc you still need a lot of time investment to clear the fights"

have you ever done P1s ? E1s ? E5s ? P6s ? P11s ? It's really not that far from Sphene EX, even easier sometime

chaotic is absolutely midcore. more player needed doesnt make it mechanically more difficult.
and no you dont nèed 24 flawless people for towers.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

"Most of those I would agree with but Savage and Chaotic. I think Savage lends closer to Hardcore bc you still need a lot of time investment to clear the fights"

have you ever done P1s ? E1s ? E5s ? P6s ? P11s ? It's really not that far from Sphene EX, even easier sometime

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Why ask a question you know the answer to? Of course they haven't.

Congratulations, you have created at least five new and different definitions of midcore in this thread alone, and this isn't even one of the longer ones on the subject. You also seem to have driven everyone who wants content that is challenging but doesn't require practicing with a group off this forum, because they're barely participating in this anymore. It's hardcore raiders all around defining what is midcore here.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

I call this tier "the average official forum poster"

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Pot? Kettle.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

I'll clarify, and I felt it was important to specify that I dislike the content because I am defending its current state.

There are many people who enjoy the current Chaotic as it is. It is not fair to those people to change it, because it could turn it into something they may no longer enjoy. That is not fair to those players. It has nothing to do with self-worth in clearing, but about the fact you are changing something that people are currently enjoying into something that they may not.

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Can this logic not be applied to almost anything though?

It's not fair to nerf PCT because PCT mains are happy with it, it's unfair to debuff it because then that isn't fair to the people who main it "because it could turn into something they make no longer enjoy. That is not fair to those players."

It's not fair to make normal content harder because some players are happy with it how it is and it wouldn't be fair to make it harder "because it could turn into something they make no longer enjoy. That is not fair to those players."

I could go on. While I don't disagree with the overall point you're trying to make, I have a feeling if we applied the exact same logic to... anything other than raiding, there'd be a way different tune and a "reason" why "that's different"

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

Can this logic not be applied to almost anything though?

It's not fair to nerf PCT because PCT mains are happy with it, it's unfair to debuff it because then that isn't fair to the people who main it "because it could turn into something they make no longer enjoy. That is not fair to those players."

It's not fair to make normal content harder because some players are happy with it how it is and it wouldn't be fair to make it harder "because it could turn into something they make no longer enjoy. That is not fair to those players."

I could go on. While I don't disagree with the overall point you're trying to make, I have a feeling if we applied the exact same logic to... anything other than raiding, there'd be a way different tune and a "reason" why "that's different"

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so you are saying buff all other job making the balance of all other expension go more wacky then it is wouldn't make sense either I love Picto myself and even me I see the problem it give and I do still think it should be nerf not only for a balance in end game(current expension) I think it is out of balance in every single instances. Dungeon melt with Picto bosses get dominated with Picto like why taking anything else other then Picto other then red mage for the Rez Picto in raw damage is easier and if you time things right it also never stop.


I do think Picto need a nerf and not other job a buff to go to the same point Picto is it is also easier to nerf one job over buffing almost a dozen of others

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

I'll clarify, and I felt it was important to specify that I dislike the content because I am defending its current state.

There are many people who enjoy the current Chaotic as it is. It is not fair to those people to change it, because it could turn it into something they may no longer enjoy. That is not fair to those players. It has nothing to do with self-worth in clearing, but about the fact you are changing something that people are currently enjoying into something that they may not.

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Eh, this is a weak argument because every single change to anything has the potential to upset people in the same manner. Calling it "unfair" doesn't make sense, because there is no "fairness" in what we get -- we're all ultimately at the mercy of whatever the devs decide to put out.

Based on first-week feedback after Chaotic, it was clear that the sentiment towards it was overwhelmingly negative, with even the people saying "it's a well-designed fight" immediately countering that with claims that their time progging it was miserable, which is...generally not how you want your player base to describe their experience with your game. It's already, a mere few weeks in, a massive chore to fill a group purely via PF, because hardly anyone actually likes doing it. And once 7.2 drops, it'll be dead in the water for anyone who isn't into either mount-collecting or that particular hairstyle.

If SE would reduce the difficulty, I'm sure the number of people doing it (or doing it again) would dwarf the number of people who have already done it, which seems like a good trade-off to me. Plus, the community has been screaming non-stop for a couple years now for more non-progression-raiding content, and the first new type of content they put out, finally, is...a progression raid fight. It's just a huge L for them, IMO, and one more point in the "innovation is dead in CBU3" tally.

I personally don't mind the difficulty. It feels more or less early-expansion Savage, but the complexity of FFXIV's mechanics just don't work well with 24 people for me. Dying to explosions that happened because two people a mile away stood on the same tile isn't fun, nor is making that same mistake myself and getting 20 other people killed. I like that it gives BiS armor as rewards. I don't really care about Savage rewards; I just like doing the fights with my friends, so an easier way to gear up alts is appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

so you are saying buff all other job making the balance of all other expension go more wacky then it is wouldn't make sense either I love Picto myself and even me I see the problem it give and I do still think it should be nerf not only for a balance in end game(current expension) I think it is out of balance in every single instances. Dungeon melt with Picto bosses get dominated with Picto like why taking anything else other then Picto other then red mage for the Rez Picto in raw damage is easier and if you time things right it also never stop.


I do think Picto need a nerf and not other job a buff to go to the same point Picto is it is also easier to nerf one job over buffing almost a dozen of others

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Oh, my mistake for not clarifying. I was exaggerating my points and applying their logic just to show out insane their take is; to answer what you're asking though... what balance? most normal content is brain off to begin with. NIN/VPR are apparently top dps including PCT for the new chaotic. PCT rocks with downtime, any other time it's more in line with everything else, yes? Things in normal content got melted before PCT was even a thing, this isn't a new issue so let's not blame PCT for it. Why should PCT be nerfed instead of acknowledging that most encounters in this game require the brainpower of a cat?

Before PCT, the exact thing you're saying STILL existed, only, exchange PCT with BLM instead. Don't really gotta take my word for it though.

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Originally Posted by OlafQuintessa

If ever there was confirmation that the producers are totally out of touch...

“During the 6.x era, we received a lot of player feedback regarding a lack of midcore content, as well as a strong desire for more large-scale content,” he tells me. “The chaotic alliance raid is our direct response to these requests. With that in mind, we decided our target audience would primarily be those who fall somewhere between extreme trials and the first two savage encounters.."

- Lead battle designer Masaki "Mr Ozma" Nakagawa
https://www.pcgamer.com/games/final-...ons-and-raids/

I know "midcore" is a somewhat nebulous term, but I think we all agree that challenging content for casuals to try that isn't extreme or savage is what the game really needs. So, how does the lead designer interpret this desire? More extreme/savage content, that you need to get 24 people together for so it's really hard to learn. I think we can give up on anything midcore in ffxiv to be honest.

Yoshi, Ozma - midcore is not halfway between extreme and savage. If you want somewhere to start, think savage with half the mechanics, for 4-8 people. And don't get your raid team to test it, they'll just say it's easy. Find some willing casuals. Thank you.

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They cannot be serious.... It has literal savage BIS and the most ridiculously tight dps check ive ever seen for "not savage" content. of the 60 or so clears i got half of those were easily on the enrage timer because of a few deaths in p1. its not forgiving in any way. its completely unbalanced. What even is this... do they not listen to ANYTHING we say?

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

I'll clarify, and I felt it was important to specify that I dislike the content because I am defending its current state.

There are many people who enjoy the current Chaotic as it is. It is not fair to those people to change it, because it could turn it into something they may no longer enjoy. That is not fair to those players. It has nothing to do with self-worth in clearing, but about the fact you are changing something that people are currently enjoying into something that they may not.

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If you really must insist on this then why not have 2 modes like criterion. 1 is chaotic and 1 is chaotic savage. seams completely fair. hell u can even have a shiney weapon to go with your pretty armour

The elusive and shapeshifting cryptid known as Midcore.

I already mentioned this in another thread, but arguing about the semantics of what "casual", "midcore" and "hardcore" means is completely pointless. The real issue is that the jump in difficulty between normal content and ex trials is way too big. That gap has not been filled for an insanely long time and that's why people feel like there is not enough "midcore" content. Whether you consider ex trials or savage midcore content does not matter. The huge spike in difficulty between normal and ex trials is far bigger than the jump in difficulty between ex trials and savage for example.

Square Enix needs to focus on filling that gap more so that the spectrum of difficulty is gradual. We experienced players have to remember not to take for granted how easy even the harder content may seem to us. Look at it from the perspective of a new player, or maybe even a player who has yet to step into ex trials or higher. Do you really think the current pipeline of difficulty is sufficient to teach them how to do ex trials? I personally think it does not.

And honestly I am not surprised by mr. Ozma's statement. Variant and Criterion was exactly the same where going from Variant to Criterion normal was an insanely big jump in difficulty, basically going from normal to savage mechanics in 1 step. Why was the middle difficulty this hard?

Variant criterion and criterion savage are still so odd in hindsight because I literally could not name you a single type of player who would think the distribution offered was good

As easy as an MSQ dungeon->mid late savage floor->4 man ultimate

Was such a horrible choice that basically meant the content ended up being for nobody. Even JP didn’t engage with it that much because while JP really likes the “ozma midcore” range, they aren’t terribly big on going much higher than it and the reward oriented NA wasn’t interested in the least

“Harder than shiva normal easier and less organisation than an “average” extreme” continues to be the biggest gap in content in this game

I dont think difficulty is the issue here...

Personally, it's about a fight that is recoverable. If a few people die during the fight, it shouldn't lead to immediate failure of the whole alliance.
I did not have any issue in Delebrum Savage nor in Castrum Lacus Litore. It worked just fine.

if you have decent and flexible people with you then quit a lot is recoverable

Should abandon the word midcore since it varies a lot on what people perceive. Heck I guess the Bozja CEs are considered brain dead despite people memeing about Red Chocobo wipes or any other CEs that punish you heavily, even Castrum was rough and initially people were scared to do Lyon's mini battle lol

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I dont think difficulty is the issue here...

Personally, it's about a fight that is recoverable. If a few people die during the fight, it shouldn't lead to immediate failure of the whole alliance.
I did not have any issue in Delebrum Savage nor in Castrum Lacus Litore. It worked just fine.

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I think that the majority of the deaths could've easily been avoided if guides came out earlier. Sadly, Christmas Eve release didn't help with that. Early raid plans did not explain certain mechanics properly either, which led to people having bad experiences with PF during the first few days of launch.

I agree with you. I believe that people are exaggerating the difficulty. Does dying to spreads/pairs before towers sound like a hard mechanic? Yet there will always be players dying to it.

There are details not explained in early raid plans. Things people had to either be informed about or experience it by pulling the boss more. Which sadly was not happening PF. People instantly left after a few pulls without giving other players a chance to practice/understand certain mechanics properly.

Have we just considered that perhaps Chaotic is Midcore, and people arguing it's not might just be... Casual?

Seriously, CoD gives you a million years to react to her tells. The tiles last 45 seconds. Even deaths on tile phase are workable if you have people on the platforms that can rez. Part 1 & 3 are entirely personal responsibility (and even allow a friendly healer to fix your mistakes).

If you consider Chaotic hardcore, please reevaluate your own capabilities. It's an extreme trial, an easier one.

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Originally Posted by Jamini

Have we just considered that perhaps Chaotic is Midcore, and people arguing it's not might just be... Casual?

Seriously, CoD gives you a million years to react to her tells. The tiles last 45 seconds. Even deaths on tile phase are workable if you have people on the platforms that can rez. Part 1 & 3 are entirely personal responsibility (and even allow a friendly healer to fix your mistakes).

If you consider Chaotic hardcore, please reevaluate your own capabilities. It's an extreme trial, an easier one.

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It doesn't really matter what you want to call it or the players who do (or don't do) it: the consensus seems to be that it's simply not what players in aggregate have been asking for. IMO, the game really didn't need another single-boss fight that requires external study guides. We have a billion of those already. I would love to see them escape from Instance Simulator 2k25, although I understand why that's a Herculean task.

ETA: it's worth noting that my favorite pieces of content are, in fact, single-boss fights that require external study guides, and I'm still making the claim that Chaotic was not a good or needed addition to the game. I would love to have something else in the game to do that's fun, but that just doesn't exist right now.

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Originally Posted by Majatok

I honestly thought that variant dungeons were going to be slightly harder than your average "expert" dungeons. I did 3 rounds of variant Sil'dihn before I couldn't do it anymore because I was bored out of my mind.

But hey, that's what criterion dungeons are there for, right? So I hopped into the queue with random people as a DPS, and what do I get? Wipe, wipe, wipe, wipe, wipe, wipe, wipe until our tank told us that they didn't expect the content to be so hard and they would rather "prog it with friends," so we ended up disbanding.

I mentioned it in another thread, Variant/Criterion was the moment I got disillusioned. I knew the chaotic raid was going to be the exact same way, so I didn't even bother unlocking it.

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This is one-for-one my experience with Variant/Criterion as well.

Personally I haven’t done any hardcore raiding in an MMO in a very long time. Those days are behind me and my more recent attempt really showed me that. I hopped into an extreme trial back in Endwalker, Hydaelyn. I progged with a PF group for about 3-4 hours, and after hitting a wall on a mechanic (I can’t remember which one) I just though to myself “yeah this is cool but I really don’t have time for this type of content.” I enjoyed it in theory but I simply can’t commit that kind of time to a single fight in a single game.

My personal definition of midcore content has always been as follows: Semi-difficult content for people who are competent at the game, can parse high, can understand and interpret mechanics easily, but simply do not have the time to prog for several hours a day severals days a week for weeks or even months on end.

On that definition I think many other MMOs do midcore content very well. WoW’s Mythic+ system I believe is an epitome example of midcore done right. Dungeon content that starts out at a difficulty level a little higher than the highest available “Dungeon Finder” difficulty, and scales up. Rewards scale with difficulty achieved. I would also put Mage Tower in there as a solo player example of really good midcore.

FFXIV has literally nothing like this. We have content that can be completed by literally any player regardless of skill (dungeons, normal trials, alliance raids), and content that requires a large organized party and hours/days/weeks of prog. There is no middle ground at all, and I think it’s a massive problem for the game.

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Originally Posted by jonimated

This is one-for-one my experience with Variant/Criterion as well.

Personally I haven’t done any hardcore raiding in an MMO in a very long time. Those days are behind me and my more recent attempt really showed me that. I hopped into an extreme trial back in Endwalker, Hydaelyn. I progged with a PF group for about 3-4 hours, and after hitting a wall on a mechanic (I can’t remember which one) I just though to myself “yeah this is cool but I really don’t have time for this type of content.” I enjoyed it in theory but I simply can’t commit that kind of time to a single fight in a single game.

My personal definition of midcore content has always been as follows: Semi-difficult content for people who are competent at the game, can parse high, can understand and interpret mechanics easily, but simply do not have the time to prog for several hours a day severals days a week for weeks or even months on end.

On that definition I think many other MMOs do midcore content very well. WoW’s Mythic+ system I believe is an epitome example of midcore done right. Dungeon content that starts out at a difficulty level a little higher than the highest available “Dungeon Finder” difficulty, and scales up. Rewards scale with difficulty achieved. I would also put Mage Tower in there as a solo player example of really good midcore.

FFXIV has literally nothing like this. We have content that can be completed by literally any player regardless of skill (dungeons, normal trials, alliance raids), and content that requires a large organized party and hours/days/weeks of prog. There is no middle ground at all, and I think it’s a massive problem for the game.

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The schism is so deep at this point that, in terms of combat content, FF14 is now two games living uncomfortably beneath the same login screen.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The schism is so deep at this point that, in terms of combat content, FF14 is now two games living uncomfortably beneath the same login screen.

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Very true and a big problem IMO.

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Originally Posted by TemporalFruitsAndVeggies

It doesn't really matter what you want to call it or the players who do (or don't do) it: the consensus seems to be that it's simply not what players in aggregate have been asking for. IMO, the game really didn't need another single-boss fight that requires external study guides. We have a billion of those already. I would love to see them escape from Instance Simulator 2k25, although I understand why that's a Herculean task.

ETA: it's worth noting that my favorite pieces of content are, in fact, single-boss fights that require external study guides, and I'm still making the claim that Chaotic was not a good or needed addition to the game. I would love to have something else in the game to do that's fun, but that just doesn't exist right now.

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This seems to be one of the game's biggest challenges: getting out of a combat mode that relies exclusively on perfect choreography, and therefore on consulting a guide. Because this is what makes Ex / savage content so difficult for so many: not because of the difficulty of the mechanics as such, but rather because of the fact that everything has to be done right by everyone (or else, in too many cases, you'll end up with a general wipe). This inevitably entails a greater investment of time, a parameter that is perhaps overlooked a little too much in the definition of “HL”.

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Originally Posted by jonimated

My personal definition of midcore content has always been as follows: Semi-difficult content for people who are competent at the game, can parse high, can understand and interpret mechanics easily, but simply do not have the time to prog for several hours a day severals days a week for weeks or even months on end.

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FFXIV is missing fights where one experienced player can type out mechanics explanations in party chat in a few minutes and then within an hour you can clear the fight. Most of GW2's raid bosses are like this, and they're really fun to bring new players into, because the newbies start to contribute meaningfully basically right away, but experienced players can carry certain aspects.

Also, the GW2 devs are not afraid to say, "We don't care about your parse. Forget your uptime and go do these special mechanics." Hell, one boss called Deimos requires a role called a "hand-kiter," who does zero damage and just keeps themselves alive while, surprisingly, kiting hands along the edge of the arena all fight. FFXIV would never put something like that in a fight in a million years.

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

This seems to be one of the game's biggest challenges: getting out of a combat mode that relies exclusively on perfect choreography, and therefore on consulting a guide. Because this is what makes Ex / savage content so difficult for so many: not because of the difficulty of the mechanics as such, but rather because of the fact that everything has to be done right by everyone (or else, in too many cases, you'll end up with a general wipe). This inevitably entails a greater investment of time, a parameter that is perhaps overlooked a little too much in the definition of “HL”.

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Some people don't like when I point this out, but, IMO, the core reason for this is that the game has terrible combat, which becomes immediately apparent when not masked by complex mechanics. This is why the new player experience is a slog, why getting level synced down is insufferable, why FATEs and Deep Dungeons are so boring, etc. If you're not doing advanced choreography, you're just stuck there pressing uninspiring buttons on a prescribed loop against no-mechanics trash enemies. It's why most end-game content is progression raiding.

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Some people don't like when I point this out, but, IMO, the core reason for this is that the game has terrible combat, which becomes immediately apparent when not masked by complex mechanics. This is why the new player experience is a slog, why getting level synced down is insufferable, why FATEs and Deep Dungeons are so boring, etc. If you're not doing advanced choreography, you're just stuck there pressing uninspiring buttons on a prescribed loop against no-mechanics trash enemies. It's why most end-game content is progression raiding.

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I'm inclined to be less harsh than you on the combat system (it allows for extensive mapping, a mechanic I really like), but it's indeed this aspect that really gets in the way. The game is rigid, terribly rigid. Since there's almost no “random” aspect, no damage done to dps on a regular basis and without it being phoned in / pre-scripted, the game HAS to compensate by setting up very punishing things.

In short: if you indicate AOEs with orange cones, your orange cone has to do twice as much damage as if it wasn't indicated. If the mechanics are choreographed, they have to be ultra-punitive when badly executed. And this can sometimes lead to terribly frustrating situations, where your mastery of your class has no impact on the course of the fight. How many times, as a healer, have I spotted a dps who was poorly playing... But for whom I could do absolutely nothing, because the game meant that if he missed something, death was automatic?

There is one pleasing aspect, however: the chaotic raid does introduce a random aspect that foreshadows a possible evolution, and that's a good sign. In the case of Chaotic Raid, their mistake (IMO, of course) was to associate randomness with the punishing aspect of the mechanics. The result is not midcore content, but HL content.