7.1 - Jobs, meet sandpaper

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

An encounter with trash packs is usually long enough you need to dump at least one lily in uptime if not two. The distribution of uptime vs downtime in a normal dungeon run meant you couldn’t use only downtime lilys. The system was a coordinated use for uptime lilys and is also why it worked better before misery was DPS neutral in single target

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In my experience, dungeon trash pulls are usually over long before you get anywhere close to generating 3 lilies. The exception being the first few weeks expansion release, most players massively outgear dungeon content for the remaining 99% of the games lifecycle.

I prefer to give up a GCD of dps than let people die, thanks, if I wanted every GCD to be dps I'd play an actual DPS job.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

I prefer to give up a GCD of dps than let people die, thanks, if I wanted every GCD to be dps I'd play an actual DPS job.

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All healers in XIV have more than enough oGCD heals to keep the party alive without GCD healing in casual content. If people are dying, the problem is not glare/holy, it's in your usage (or lack thereof) of the rest of your kit.

If you're choosing a healer because you want to heal primarily, you're playing the wrong game. See the near-1000 page "healer strike" thread for details.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

[...]You also don't need to weave heals when you've already cast an Afflatus heal. I'm not going to cast Afflatus Solace so that I can weave Benediction, am I?

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That's where they can throw in Tetra/Veil/Benison and the likes, non benedictions basically. Misery can also be used to weave something when needed, and is not a dps loss to do so provided they remember to dump it before anything dies.

Holy 1.5s cast time just eliminates that and gives them free weave anything and anytime they want free from required thought---that is where I have problem with their intention to greenlight this change. There's already 3 other healer who does this.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

That's where they can throw in Tetra/Veil/Benison and the likes, non benedictions basically. Misery can also be used to weave something when needed, and is not a dps loss to do so provided they remember to dump it before anything dies.

Holy 1.5s cast time just eliminates that and gives them free weave anything and anytime they want free from required thought---that is where I have problem with their intention to greenlight this change. There's already 3 other healer who does this.

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I mean, sure. You CAN use Afflatus heals to weave things like Benison/Aquaveil, but you don't need to and will deal more damage if you just spam Holy and clip your GCD to cast those abilities between spells.

WHM having 2.5 second casts fits the idea of WHM but not the actual implementation.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

PLD and GNB had near identical damage output in M4S due to how well PLD handles the downtime.

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That's why I specifically mentioned M4S as the sole exception and only because of how much better Paladin deals with the increased melee downtime.
And I'm not even against this kind of design, provided every tank has it's own niche in which they outperform the others...but we don't have that.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

The fix here is not to bring tank damage in line. The fix is to make GNB and DRK's damage rotations more interesting and complex, with more room for optimisation, so that the difference in damage output is warranted.

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You won't find me disagreeing with this, that's however not our current reality.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

If we're going to make all the tank jobs 123 spend with identical damage output, we might as well just make 1 job called "tank" and WAR, PLD, GNB and DRK are just skins that you buy on Mogstation.

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This is pretty much the current reality.

Do Warrior and Paladin have better self sustain? Sure.
Does that single-target self sustain justify an up to 2k dps difference when none of them have a noticeably more intricate rotation? I don't think so.

Hell, we had less of a dps discrepancy back in Shadowbringers when tanks were still less homogenized than they are now.
They somehow manage to mess up the balancing even harder, be that offensively or defensively, every time they bring the tanks closer together in terms of gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

That's why I specifically mentioned M4S as the sole exception and only because of how much better Paladin deals with the increased melee downtime.
And I'm not even against this kind of design, provided every tank has it's own niche in which they outperform the others...but we don't have that.



You won't find me disagreeing with this, that's however not our current reality.


This is pretty much the current reality.

Do Warrior and Paladin have better self sustain? Sure.
Does that single-target self sustain justify an up to 2k dps difference when none of them have a noticeably more intricate rotation? I don't think so.

Hell, we had less of a dps discrepancy back in Shadowbringers when tanks were still less homogenized than they are now.
They somehow manage to mess up the balancing even harder, be that offensively or defensively, every time they bring the tanks closer together in terms of gameplay.

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Sure, but I don't like these changes. I would strongly prefer if the tanks were made more unique, not less.

Another example is giving Dark Mind and Dark Missionary/Heart of Light 50% efficiency vs physical damage. Honestly, just remove physical and magic damage at this point. They don't serve any purpose any more. Just add them to list of dead features that have been eroded over time.

A much better solution (IMO) would have been to buff Dark Mind from 20% vs. magic to 30% vs magic and DM/HoL from 20% vs. magic to 25% or even 30%.

Everything is becoming so samey and monotonous that I feel like I'm bored of a new patch before it even releases. Oh, joy. Another x.1 patch that's exactly the same as every previous x.1 patch that the game has had for the last 10 years, except the game has had even more features gutted since the last one and the story content feels AI generated. It's like Groundhog Day except every day gets an hour shorter.

We've done it, we've finally removed all points of failure to play jobs. Now you can fully enjoy DDR encounter mechanics, the only thing that matters in the game.

#McDonaldized.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Holy being made a 1.5 second cast is one of the few changes in this patch that I think makes sense. WHM having longer cast times made sense when the job was more GCD heal oriented. Now that it does most of it's healing via oGCD, it makes more sense for it to be able to weave those oGCDs.

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Greeding Holy not to clip oCGDs or move was literally the only fun to be had in dungeons as WHM. And now that's gone.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

It does strike me as a bit confusing that a job where mobility would be expected is somehow "ruined' by being given another skill to be mobile with (in a game that can and will insta-kill you for not staying on the move in some fights), or how the job with a major failure state baked right into its core rotation that no other job does is somehow "too easy" now.

These same people probably wept over the removal of Anatman, or insist Flamethrower is a top-rung skill, lol.

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Yes indeed, taking away a bit of risk from a move is a bad thing. The risk is part of what makes a move feel good.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

It does strike me as a bit confusing that a job where mobility would be expected is somehow "ruined' by being given another skill to be mobile with

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You say this as if TCJ was removing overall mobility, a move being the ONE move in your kit that acts differently makes the rotation more varied and fun.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

(in a game that can and will insta-kill you for not staying on the move in some fights)

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Exactly, another reason why it felt good to use, positioning according to the mechanics that were about to happen so you can execute TCJ smoothly was part of what made it fun. Moving it slightly earlier or later in your rotation to adjust to the fight was enjoyable.

Also the class being "too easy" is not the problem, it's that it's easier not "too easy". A move requiring the slightest amount of brain function to execute is indeed more fun than just pressing buttons whenever.

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Originally Posted by KillaKilala

I mean I completely agree with your philosophy, but this specific mechanic was actually bad.

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I think everyone's problem is that things are just getting stripped away with no recourse, yeah. It's less about if this particular one was bad and more like there goes another thing without anything new to take it's place. It's a drain on flavor, the discussion for deeper mechanics is a conversation myself and lots of others are far, far past it being the point anymore.

Since I mentioned dragoon in the first page, ninja for example could have had a similar lean to for flavor.

Like ninja gains a shield for 50% of their max HP, each cast has bonus potency based on the remaining shield. Don't get hit, more damage, get hit a little, minor punishment. Still can't move or you cancel the skill though.

Or something like you can cast your blink (teleport) without breaking the skill. I feel kind of damages the immobility, but you could run hard the other way and make it so casting TCJ resets your blink, you can cast blink without breaking TCJ and each ninjitsu cast via TCJ also resets your blink, holy mobility Batman lol. Moving, outside of blink, still breaks TCJ, yet insanely mobile.

I lightly play all jobs and am familiar with TCJ, but am definitely not a Ninja main and am primarily speaking aloud that whenever SE attempts to address a stress point I feel their fix is to just make it more similar to everything else.

So just trying to suggest ideas that maintain their differences rather than draw together their similarities (while still reducing potential punishment feelings).

I don't know how 1 expansion even without the post patches completely killed all goodwill I had for this game after playing it through 1.x beta, 1x, 2.0 to now. I've been a white knight for this game for since the beginning and I just can't defend what Yoshida is doing anymore. He's not playing this game. His defenses are so outlandish to what's actually happening that he's now just sounding like every other brainless corporate talking head.

I want the old Yoshi back. I want him to stand upto SE and tell them he's not going to lead anymore teams and he's going to give XIV some quality time and actually look into our complaints, because everything that's been happening in lack of response to player feedback is very telling to who's actually running this game (not Yoshi and some really bad dev team that doesn't know what they're doing).

SE trying to make every job braindead like healers.

I'm sure that'll work out great.

Why did they get rid of my Nastronds?...

I don't care if DRG got a DPS buff in general. I find Nastrond fun and they are making me use it once now instead of 3x.

I am worried that SE will get away with this because the theorycrafters which have a somewhat strong voice in endgame stuff will be okay with it because DPS number is now bigger. =(

I am not okay with sacrificing fun for bigger numbers.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

I don't know how 1 expansion even without the post patches completely killed all goodwill I had for this game after playing it through 1.x beta, 1x, 2.0 to now.

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This is the power of DT.

TCJ changes are good.

DRK changes are fine, but I think DRK still needs a greater overhaul.

DRG changes are bad. Removing Nastrond stacks is tasteless. Starcross range buff is nice though.

What even is the point of having so many jobs that are all the same.

Gear is shared, role quests replaced job quests so there's no exclusive content to any job... WHY can we not have easy and difficult jobs within the same role? Why are they catering to people who do not play them instead of making different jobs to cater to different people? They (sort of) understand that people enjoy different difficulty levels in content, that's why we have extreme, savages and so on. Why can't they do the same with jobs?

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Originally Posted by Moqi

What even is the point of having so many jobs that are all the same.

Gear is shared, role quests replaced job quests so there's no exclusive content to any job... WHY can we not have easy and difficult jobs within the same role? Why are they catering to people who do not play them instead of making different jobs to cater to different people? They (sort of) understand that people enjoy different difficulty levels in content, that's why we have extreme, savages and so on. Why can't they do the same with jobs?

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https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2...4b5/giphy.webp

I’m one who is happy with the TCJ change, but I’m also disappointed to think that these job changes to make spells/skills instacast (esuna), able to cast while moving (TCJ), or with reduced button presses (Nastrond) are a clear sign that DDR gameplay is here to stay or even expand. At least I appreciate getting fair warning of what we can expect for 8.0 job changes.

For me, some DDR is fun but not what I signed up for in an MMO so I’ll let my sub go when it expires next month. It’s ironic they’re doing a FF11 crossover right at this time, so old fogies like me can remember what a great FF MMO used to be. Eh, maybe I’ll resub for a month when FF11 raid #2 and #3 come out just to reminisce about the old days lol.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

By that logic we should remove cast times on iiajutsu

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Rather than removing cast times, I wouldn’t be surprised if they eventually make iaijutsu like TCJ is now where you can cast it while moving.

The job simplification will continue until morale improves.

It's really disappointing to see some of these changes and a lack of substantial buffs. Summoner's "buffs" basically just being fixing the potency bug for their Summons and giving Sunflare a little more potency would be comical if it wasn't so sad. Lots of discussion about the TCJ change but I don't really play Ninja so I can't speak much to it -- I think from the perspective of "ease of play" it's a good change, but from the perspective of the job having some pushback to require players to think and plan for FFXIV's very scripted fights it feels a little silly. GNB's Superbolide change is really lame, imo. I think the flavor of becoming invulnerable and going down to 1 HP is a lot cooler than what it got changed to.

I could go on, but I am really perplexed by these changes and it makes me worry that the promised identity reworks coming in 8.0 are not going to be good.

Is this how WoW players felt during Shadowlands? Because my opinion of Yoshi P is about as low as the average take on Ion I saw a few years back.

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

Is this how WoW players felt during Shadowlands? Because my opinion of Yoshi P is about as low as the average take on Ion I saw a few years back.

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hmmmm leme check
- uninspired lore (MSQ) filled with wasted potential
- devs isn't listening their own community or do not try enough
- repeating formula
- art, environments and music (not you smile) carrying the game

- items that used to stimulate FOMO (EXP earrings) now accessible by anyone in mogstation because why not

(btw, save it: they will put old feast pvp rewards as premium items in mogstation someday)


damn... you are right
FFXIV is losing originality in every aspect.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Can't say it ever felt "good and fun" to use things like Anatman or Meditate, and I made it point to avoid using them.

As someone who enjoys NIN and MCH in part because of their feeling of quickness and mobility, I wasn't looking forward to unlocking TCJ and Flamethrower for that same reason, and they would have just ended up hotbar filler I never touched because they ran completely counter to why I played those jobs. (Passage of Arms will be fine though, it still has a part of it that persists after moving.)

It's also a large part of why I don't like playing SAM, because it's too slow and clunky for my tastes with the castbars and needing to trade DPS for mobility on the dash/backstep along with Meditate being tied to a part of their job gauge. Which is ironic, that people keep complaining about jobs being made "samey" and yet they want NIN to be a dexterity-based SAM, given I've also seen people demand elsewhere that since NIN is a such a "caster" melee, it should have castbars all over it too (while of course insisting it keeps its Mudra fail state.)

I guess homogenization is only okay when it goes in the one way people want it to, eh? Might I add, I'm a non-SAM main not asking for SAM to accommodate me by removing the before-mentioned immobility during build-up and finishers, but rather a NIN main being fine with this TCJ change the same way I didn't mind the Huton Gauge change, though I don't see anywhere near as many people begging for *that* to come back while decrying that the job became "brainless" without it.

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What the hell are you talking about, the way SAM's cast and NIN's TCJ worked is completely different it has nothing to do with homogenization I don't understand why you think you are being sly with that.

Cool you might not like moves that force you to use more than one braincell, that's well and good everyone has different opinions. But you keep talking about a move you didn't even use (your own admission in an early post) before it was changed like you could have even formed an opinion on it. You don't know how TCJ's "immobility" worked in NIN's kit. It didn't work or feel like anatman or meditate, as someone who spent 99% of his time playing NIN it did feel good to sometimes think about whether to use TCJ earlier or later depending on the encounter.

Other than that it was just a cool class flavor (which the game severely lacks). Lorewise your character drawing a magic circle and having to focus and be still so they can cast back to back mudras was cool.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

It was the last straw that showed me there is zero chance of jobs being good again. Not with these designers. There is no way anyone who wants jobs to have engaging gameplay would make that kind of change so it's clear that is not their priority anymore. The game today isn't being made for the people who enjoy things like that and all the disliked aspects of job design are intentional. Those who are waiting for 8.0 are coping and should probably just cut their losses now and not invest another $300 on this game waiting for it to get better in two years. It's never going to be the same as it was in the past.

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I think it really is about subscription numbers which is the words they won't say out loud, this game went really casual at a certain point and they want to keep that base over everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

this is a good change

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removing failure states is not a good change

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

removing failure states is not a good change

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It is when the devs have a love affair with making every fight a ridiculously long jog from one side of the arena to the other during burst windows.

I'm at the point where I just want to shout: "Why do you even have cast bars anymore if you hate them so much, devs?" They're designing fights that are anathema to standing still, and it's breaking every single class that has to stand still. The only cast bars not broken are 1.5s cast times or lower because you can slidecast a 1s cast on something like M4S Transition flamethrowers. So PCT doesn't care but BLM can be devastated by it.

TCJ itself is a fake cast time, but a 1-2s 'cast time' all the same. I can't speak from direct experience in current savage as I hated the ShB+ changes to NIN, but it wouldn't surprise me if NINs need to TCJ during M4SP2 towers and simply can't because of exact phasing of ability uses and when movement starts. You also can't slide cast it. So it stands to reason that if you have fight design that doesn't let you stand still, then things like TCJ not keeping you still or adding anti-drift mechanics to LL becomes, simply, mandatory.

The problem stems from the same general issue. Fights are too movement heavy. If you compare a modern fight to anything short of an ultimate from Stormblood through Eden tier 1 (oddly including TEA,) and you can see that movement has gone way, way up. It's also gone up in a way you can't simply greedcast because mechanics are also made so tight that things like the lag delay on character positions is so great that abilities like aetherial manipulation can't target someone in a safe spot and get there before the mechanic goes off.

This all cycles around to a very, very different problem. The devs messed up encounter design in mid Shadowbringers, and everything else has been an extension of slowly messing it up more and more. More movement, larger arenas, more instant casts, larger ability aoes to fit the larger arenas. There isn't a single true caster left in the game at this point. Even BLM had to be changed to fit the awful fight design.

That song and dance has happened twice before already. When they turned Warrior into Paladin and forced every tank to tank like a Paladin in 2.1, and when they turned every healer into White Mage in heavensward and Stormblood. People always say homogenization is happening and typically point to the 2m burst, that's not homogenization. The classes still play just as differently as they used to. The real homogenization is making all tanks tank the same, all healers heal the same (or similar, since barriers versus burst is a very different experience,) and now they're making all ranged DPS slowly have unlimited movement because they're designing a game to force it, just as Twintania forced Warrior to get Paladin cooldowns or things like it. Just as Astrologian and Heavensward savage forced SCH and AST to need to have heals like WHM had.

The devs may claim the game isn't stressing the player enough. In reality it's overstressing very specific roles while understressing others because they're designing a game that is incompatible with things like sustain tanking, HoT healing, and people sitting still and casting. TCJ is just another sacrifice on the altar that is homogenization.

Reading these changes were the most depressing thing I could read about this game. I would have been happier if they did nothing than this mess. I'm huffing Copium since ShB that SURELY things will become better soon but instead it just gets worse and worse with every patch for so many years now. My static mainly had to replace people because they lose interest in this game and it seems like we need to replace even more after FRU because this is too much dumbing down. At this point I don't even understand who the target audience is. They even found a way to dumb down summoner! SUMMONER! Scientists around the world don't know how one could mess up anything on that job and SE found a way to make it even easier.

I have built up so much frustration over the years and I'm not sure how much shit I can eat before I'm the next guy in my group who quits. Imagine making a great game and then thinking "how about we don't" and then remove everything that made this game fun. Every time a dev detects any fun in this game, they make sure to quickly fix this by removing it. I don't think they have time until 8.0 to fix their broken jobs. Especially not if they actively break them even further during DT. They should have done something about their job design in 6.0 already. People already complained in 5.0 but were still okay with it. 6.0 was a very obvious and big step in the wrong direction and now they are taking a leap even further away from where they should go. At this point I'm wondering what they will find out they can destroy for 8.0. Maybe our kit gets dumbed down to the level of PVP where we have like 10 buttons but having combos condensed into 1 button could be too hard so let's give every job burst shot instead. Have fun. This is not a request. You better have fun because it's not going to get better. It's like the current savage design where yes, the tier is fine. It's an improvement over EW. But EW was serving you absolute garbage. Are they doing the same right now with job design? Is their current goal to make jobs as vile as they can so when they add one new skill next expansion they can go "look guys! We improved!". Yes you improved. You went from a -20/10 to a -19/10.

I was trying really hard to not swear every sentence. Rant over (until next patch where some dev decides we are having too much fun and make things even worse).

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

The skill of remembering that this one random ability bricks itself if you move on a job that otherwise don't punish you for moving.

WoW, such skill.

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If it was so thoroughly unimpressive to play a consistently good Ninja then why did it need to be removed?
All the jobs are progressively becoming more and more braindead. I'm just not going to be interested in this game anymore if there's not going to be any skill expression in the jobs, and instead, all the challenge is shifted and isolated into the fights.

Removing the lock on Ninja is the best thing to happen to Ninja since 2.4, and I say this as a Ninja main.

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

Removing the lock on Ninja is the best thing to happen to Ninja since 2.4, and I say this as a Ninja main.

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Hells, the lock on Ten Chi Jin. Why's this forum so rough to edit on mobile?

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

Removing the lock on Ninja is the best thing to happen to Ninja since 2.4, and I say this as a Ninja main.

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most ppl saying it is bad in this thread dont even play ninja. TCJ change is good.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

I can't speak from direct experience in current savage as I hated the ShB+ changes to NIN, but it wouldn't surprise me if NINs need to TCJ during M4SP2 towers and simply can't because of exact phasing of ability uses and when movement starts.

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As far as I've tried with it, there's enough time between each Chain Lightning blast to use TCJ during it

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And that’s why punishment for a high damage mechanic is good

If punishment is only attached to failure of weak secondary and tertiary skills you functionally don’t have punishment

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Case in point, positionals. Which may as well be deleted at this point with how negligible they are. To be fair, I don't actually think they provide much gameplay intrigue but there's scarily little less left nowadays.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

TCJ itself is a fake cast time, but a 1-2s 'cast time' all the same. I can't speak from direct experience in current savage as I hated the ShB+ changes to NIN, but it wouldn't surprise me if NINs need to TCJ during M4SP2 towers and simply can't because of exact phasing of ability uses and when movement starts. You also can't slide cast it. So it stands to reason that if you have fight design that doesn't let you stand still, then things like TCJ not keeping you still or adding anti-drift mechanics to LL becomes, simply, mandatory.

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While I'm fairly certain TCJ doesn't align with that mechanic, let's pretend that it does for example sake. You have more than enough time to execute all three mudra and still get to your spot. In fact, you have some added flexibility due to it being your last two minute sequence of the fight, thus drifting doesn't matter nearly as much. Either way though, getting to your tower or baiting a gun is relatively forgiving. You could either TCJ immediately then make it to your spot, pre-position ahead of time (melee only have two positinals they can ever be in) or get to your spot first then TCJ. The point is there would be workarounds.

With all that aside, I don't it's TCJ itself that upsets people per se but rather it's another example of soothing out even the slightest bit of friction jobs have. If they replaced TCJ, positionals, Nastrond or what have you with something else, you might not see the mounting frustration a lot of players have. Instead, they've continued to gut jobs down to their very basic core all to chase what is essentially a ghost; that elusive casual player who cares enough about their damage for abilities like this to be a pain point but also doesn't want to put in any real effort to improve.

Best thing about this patch is astro finally getting a gapcloser (even though its only for pvp). Wonder how long it will take them to make it for pve too...

I don't know if my hotbar set up is just wildly different from others, but I cannot recall the last time I ever messed up TCJ while playing NIN except for like...when I was new and had just unlocked it and was trying it for the first few times. I don't know what to tell y'all. It really was not a difficult move to pull off. I found timing other parts of NIN more challenging than timing TCJ. Wow, once every 2 minutes you need to plant for for about 2 seconds. That's not nearly as much planting as many other jobs require, but it did still take some thinking ahead and strategizing, which I guess is anathema now.

You are arguing with ghosts, I do not want cast bars on NIN, I don't think NIN is unfair because it has ranged moves. Liking how TCJ was doesn't mean I want it to be the same as SAM, it interacted differently with the fight and kit than SAM's castbars. You keep trying to use this as a "gotcha" moment but it's not. I also did not say NIN didn't require any braincells anymore because of this once change, the discussion is about TCJ specifically and how it fits into the kit and fight structure.

You are talking like all the things that make NIN NIN like mudra's, hiding to reset mudras and prep work is some sort of hinderance while those are what make the class fun for people who play it, including TCJ. Fail states are one of the things that make classes interesting and makes you think more about what you need to do.

And also your last point doesn't make sense, the fact that fights are made with so much movement in mind is what made TCJ so fun to think about, having a moment of immobility on a highly mobile class was fun.

Pulling back from Ninja back to the original post, it just feels like there's no actual job design team (obviously there has to be one). It reminds me of that Bethesda talk where they more-or-less mention not having Writers but rather having everyone contribute in writing quests, characters, etc. So many changes are being made that seem to address first impressions rather than genuine Job issues that a veteran on the team believes is necessary.

We have new Jobs. One that wasn't an issue and got reworked instantly (in fact, many of its changes were planned before release somehow), one that is an issue and seemingly no one is willing to touch it. Black Mage getting incredibly impactful changes one after the other (that all seem to contradict it's identity). Dragoon who was supposed to get reworked didn't, but then gets butchered out of nowhere. Dancers getting resource gen when didn't need any. Reaper getting it's resource gen swapped for a free cast buff when it didn't need it. Healers getting their kit even more simplified after a vocal outcry of becoming too simplified. Machinist getting minuscule number tweaks when it suffers from being selfish but not allowed to be selfish. And that's just the things I can notice.

I can tell you who made those suggestions, I have all jobs at 100. This isn't a flex, I don't play most of them. And I can tell you that when I took Dragoon out of the closet to level it from 90 to 100, I got in my burst phase, got overwhelmed by a bunch of buttons and promptly decided to level it in MSQ Roulette instead. Since I'm but a nobody, and have other jobs to play, there's nothing wrong with that. But more and more (especially with Dawntrail) I get worried that people like me who happen to work at SE and are thus not "nobodies" get to have their feedback listened to. And I don't mean in a "they're requesting them" way but rather that SE is having some of their writers, graphic designers, programmers, etc try out jobs, give first impressions, and then those impressions are taken at the same value as "Veteran job designer" feedback.

I just wish I felt like whoever was managing the jobs I love loves them too. I wish I got the impression that whoever was managing the jobs I love was looking out for me. But instead it feels like whoever "that" is is more preoccupied with why my neighbour prefers a different job, and what he can do to win him over. Jobs are being treated like they're some kind of diversity quota that needs equal representation. Other times it's more bothered by pleasing some elite 1% who cares more about math than the job itself. Either way, it's clear I'm the third wheel in this whole thing, and I can't say it makes me too hopeful about the future.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

And I didn't say those things were a hindrance, only that it's already a long list of things to manage (now, and later when I get there) that something like old-TCJ would have been one thing too far, especially with how it ran completely opposite to how NIN normally works. Maybe *you* thought it was fun, but I would have found it loathsome to the point of either not using it, or just stopped playing NIN if I was required to use it no exceptions.

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The fact that you would forego doing major damage because a move has a slight negative, which wasn't even really a "negative", and the fact that you see fail states and drawbacks as things to "tolerate" in a kit speaks mountains to what kind of gameplay you want.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

but there's also ones that are so crippling to any possible fun factor that it dumpsters the whole job for me.

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Standing still for literal 1.5 seconds is not "so crippling". Also if something about a job is such a big bother that it ruins it for you, there are 21 other classes for you to pick and chose from. NIN people liked NIN for what it is, and I've seen a majority of NIN players, those who have spoken out of course, dislike the change to TCJ. Changing a class to cater to people that don't actually like it makes absolutely no sense.