Normal Raids need dps check and enrage time

I think they're mostly fine. We'll see how things look when people outgear them. Personally, I'm in favor of soft enrages like M4. Clueless healers really struggle to keep the party up on that one if it takes too long.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

DPS check? Maybe a few here and there.
Enrage? Leave it in extremes and savages. It doesn't belong in normals. You already have some saying that this expansion is too hard.

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What would the fail state of a dps check be if not an enrage?

No. When you get a bad group, it is painful enough. The queues for a new raid are also pretty long atm. It would just make queues longer as several people wouldn't bother anymore.

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Originally Posted by LilyPendragon

What would the fail state of a dps check be if not an enrage?

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There lots of consequences that don’t equate enrage or direct wipe. Adds exploding into extra damage, adds exploding into nasty debuffs, having it prolong a heavy damage phase that taxes healers, have it pick off or isolate individuals, have it add extra mechanics/aoes while active, have an add that continually tank busts or applies a stacking vuln on the tank. And these are just some past dps checks that I can recall atm.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I hate to break it to you, but Praetorium -- yes, Praetorium, of the MSQ roulette -- has a DPS check / hard enrage.

Eden's Verse: Refulgence also has a DPS check / hard enrage.

I've actually seen both. In Praetorium, the party will wipe if it doesn't kill the four adds in time. In Refulgence, it turns out two tanks and six dead party members can't quite break the ice in time.

SE is perfectly capable of adding a DPS check / hard enrage to normal content without making everyone scream, "tHiS iS tOo HaRd!?!?!2111!!"

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I think we have different concepts of what "DPS check" or "hard enrage" means. The adds you're talking about in Praetorium have minimal HP. They're not a "DPS check" in my opinion - they're a mechanic. If you switch to the adds, you easily take them down. If you tunnel the boss and leave the adds alone, you wipe. Failing isn't because you didn't have the DPS; it's because you ignored the mechanic. I don't recall the thing in Refulgence that you're referring to, but other fights have similar mechanics (e.g. Brute Justice with the four Steam Regulators that pop up in the first phase).

The concept of a "DPS check" or "Hard Enrage" that I've grown accustomed over the years is a test to see if everyone in your party is sufficiently geared and sufficiently skilled. If people are undergeared or providing minimal contributions, you'll wipe even if you're doing the mechanics correctly. Someone in another thread on here took this from the FF Wiki:

"A hard enrage is designed to wipe a group if the battle is not beaten fast enough. The purpose of this is to prevent turtling and undergeared groups from beating the battle."

That's the DPS Check or Hard Enrage I don't see happening in Normal content. Putting a group into a fail state in Normal content because someone is at min ilvl or isn't using all their abilities is just going to cause fractures. Mechanics, on the other hand, seem fine.

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There lots of consequences that don’t equate enrage or direct wipe.

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Similar to what I was addressing above, the typical meaning of "DPS check" is "you have enough DPS to do this or you wipe." The things you're referring to aren't really "DPS checks," and some of them like the add applying a stacking debuff to the tank is more akin to a soft enrage if anything.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s the problem with current encounter scaling

Going from normal to extreme isn’t a “little bit of a step up” it’s an absolute ocean for many players

Normal raids and alliance raids used to actually be that sort of bridging content but now that dungeons are sleeper mode raids and alliance raids have been pushed down to where dungeons used to be and the gap between normal and extreme continues to grow

There needs to be content between current normals and current extremes and normal raids are the best positioned to be that

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I'll agree with you on something like Golbez which really was a bit much for an Extreme but ex1 and ex2 have the same sort of spiciness you see in the normal mode raids but with some forgiveness. There isn't really a huge gap and hopefully they keep up that trend. If you haven't done them, I'd give them a try. They're pretty fun.

Honestly I like the state of raids right now. And if you want to split hairs, DPS *can* help with the incoming damage. Personal Defensives? Tactician? Magic Barrier? Dismantle? Feint? Addle? Addle anyone? Also seriously, I invite you to try doing these dances as Black Mage. It is not easy.

But no Normal Raids are at the point where one fuckup will probably kill you, and two definitely will. It's a ton of pressure on healers, especially during the first few weeks sure, but this is the dictionary definition of Midcore content: you don't need to be parsing orange or any nonsense like that, but you can't sleepwalk through the fight or you're going to die. Repeatedly.

That said I tried healing M4 blind on the first week. Woof. I respect 99% of healers way more doing this now.

Edit: Now a DPS check on like...an add or something that wipes the raid if people don't burst it down could be interesting. Something where people have to save CDs or resources and burst something down. Kind of the DPS equivalent of a big raidwide aoe that serves as a heal check. That I'm here for.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

the typical meaning of "DPS check" is "you have enough DPS to do this or you wipe." The things you're referring to aren't really "DPS checks,"

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The things I referred to are quite literally, "you have enough DPS to do this or you wipe."

You have enough DPS to kill the four adds in the Gaius fight in the allotted time, or you wipe.

You have enough DPS to break the ice in the Refulgence (Normal) in the allotted time, or you wipe.

Or to add to my original list: You have enough DPS to kill the six adds in the Lv.89 trial, or you wipe.

The fact that failure takes a heroic amount of incompetence at pushing buttons or an inordinate amount of the party tanking the floor does not take away from the fact that there exists a requirement to meet a particular DPS threshold — which is all what a DPS check is. They might be easy DPS checks, but they are still DPS checks.

I'm okay with soft enrages like in M4's ending phase. Where if you take too long, the boss will start ramping up their damage consistently to the point where healers will eventually run out of resources and the party cannot continue. It exists in old fights like Nidhogg too through Akh Morn increasing stacks each time. It gives fights some pressure and helps with storytelling for bosses that are pushing you to their limits.

I dislike hard DPS checks / hard enrage. Using a pass-fail check isn't fun to me. The games I played with hard DPS checks in normal mode was hated on by majority of the players in the community because it eventually became a huge gatekeeping mechanic that discourages rewarding moment to moment decision making in less-than-ideal situations. Hard enrages is effectively: You must do XYZ correctly and you can't fail it or it's a wipe. It somewhat defeats the purpose of raises and getting weakness/brink of death debuffs. It's not a game if you aren't allowed to mess up. It just becomes a strict dance and execution with less ways for creativity and skill expression. I see that kind of thing belonging more into Savage than in Normal Raids. Not to mention, if the boss has a skill that can immediately wipe you out with a hard enrage... the fight would've been over if they just used it at the start of the fight and didn't use it on you because... reasons. Feels like extremely shoddy storytelling to me.

I'd wouldn't mind seeing DPS checks with checks that end up not killing the party, but instead applied a damage down/negative debuff when failing it. I personally rather see stuff like a Heal check during a DPS check instead. Something like in Warqor Lar Dor where you want to have good DPS to not stay in that phase for too long as it burdens your healers while healing the stack. I feel like this is the best case where it combines both a soft enrage and a DPS check into one mechanic.

2.0 player here we've been wanting a gate keeping system for years SQ E said no and alot of us left or the very few who stayed only do new content then dip.

It won't work we've tried, asked, begged, made multiple forums about it etc. The answer is NO live with it or move on. It's not your game, It's Yoshi-Ps game.

On a side note your sub fee is worthless compared to how many people who would quit because of it so either make your own game or move on an play another game/MMO.

I actually like how Arcadion 4 normal does it with a sort of soft-enrage with the big laser
While it doesn't outright wipe you, it can quickly spiral out of control if you're not careful

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Originally Posted by Cyllia

2.0 player here we've been wanting a gate keeping system for years SQ E said no and alot of us left or the very few who stayed only do new content then dip.

It won't work we've tried, asked, begged, made multiple forums about it etc. The answer is NO live with it or move on. It's not your game, It's Yoshi-Ps game.

On a side note your sub fee is worthless compared to how many people who would quit because of it so either make your own game or move on an play another game/MMO.

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I don't think it would really cause anyone to quit if they added the kind of timers that Normal Raids used to have back in the day... As the requirement to beat the timer would mean that the DPS has to keep hitting the boss, and spend more time alive than dead during the fight. If the average player can't manage that, then I don't know what to say.

They really don't. Go play savage

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

I'm okay with soft enrages like in M4's ending phase. Where if you take too long, the boss will start ramping up their damage consistently to the point where healers will eventually run out of resources and the party cannot continue. It exists in old fights like Nidhogg too through Akh Morn increasing stacks each time. It gives fights some pressure and helps with storytelling for bosses that are pushing you to their limits.

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I would also like to imagine that such soft enrages help convey the fact that healers are not bottomless, magical fix-it machines.

Even my bestest self should not be able to keep the party alive indefinitely. There should be a point at which I can reasonably say, "The tanks and DPS need to do better."

Personally, I think putting a cap on raise would accomplish just as much.

I think of my entire time playing this game, I have only met an enrage once (in normal content), which was during Ultima. I don't think I've ever seen true rez-botting either, outside of earlier weeks of content when people are still adjusting to it. Maybe I am just lucky.

Enrages in normal content would essentially need to be so permissible (as to not change the scope of that content) that they honestly may as well not exist because more often than not you need to actually put effort into actually seeing it.

If they aren't that permissable, then in my opinion the entire early game up to Level 60 and arguably level 70 would need reworking, in addition to expanding the Hall of Novice system.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

They really don't. Go play savage

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They should have at least something to challenge people in the normal content but it would probably make the game feel less like FFXIV, so I get the feeling.

I don't think it is okay for someone to be spamming 1-2-3 without using OGCDs while running through the final dungeon of the MSQ, for example. But my opinion is that it would be bad to just slap a DPS check in Alexandria and suddenly everyone has to do a down to the wire 5 seconds until death clear at the min-iLvL unless they got food and tinctures. That doesn't feel like FFXIV to me and most people would probably agree.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

They should have at least something to challenge people in the normal content but it would probably make the game feel less like FFXIV, so I get the feeling.

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God I wish hard mode returned and was like this, I was praying criterion would be like this but it turned out to be 4 man savage raids.

now i wouldn't mind things to be more difficult but lets be real for a second, people are pretty bad :) and not just dps nah nah generally
so i think the only thing you would achieve with all of this, is to give having a raid guild a bigger incentive (which would make duty finder even worse)
and so i think it would do much more harm than help the community overall, if you want a challenge just raid savage and let normal be as free as it already is, because apparently its already much to hard for some ppl

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

They really don't. Go play savage

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But normal actually used to have enrages, them not having one is more of a recent development. Also like others have pointed out, M4 does technically have an enrage mechanic. I don't think anyone's asking for a super tight savage or even EX level dps check, just a "you probably shouldn't clear this if you spent 14 minutes, 2 healer LBs, and 30 RDM rezzes on this".

I am both hands up for this.

More DPS checks, soft/hard enrages, as long as they are woven nicely into the fight.

Deathgaze Hollow from Dun Scaith has it done perfect. He slowly "contaminates" the arena, until there is no more safe squares and his next "explode all black tiles" wipes out everyone. Yes, you can delay raise through it, but it is akin trashing in agony before the next explosion.

All players can clearly see the arena getting less safe, the fight stakes rising with each square "blackened", game pushes you to perform better with adds that fills your LB gauge, the desire to pump your DPS efficiently is met with satisfaction of defeating boss before the "enrage".
(well, unfortunately, with power creep and retarded Ilvl sync, it dies insanely quickly without doing anything, but that's the story for another time)

Enrage doesn't need to be strict or anything. Accounting said Item Level bloat that eventually turns all Normal fights into players punching a fancy target dummy, people won't even see one for years. But the simple thought of the fight actually having a "bad ending" at the back of player's mind would be nice.

And more stuff for DPS checks in the fight, PLEASE. Break stuff to prevent raid-wiping ultimate attack, breaking party members from jails, killing adds before they snowball - I will gladly take all of that. Attacking one single target dummy for entire expansions getting a little bit boring, not going to lie.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

Interesting. Seeing as I was in four different parties last night that wiped in M3 four times each and eventually disbanded because the healers never could keep anyone above 50% health. Then timed and wasted LB3 every single time. And I stayed alive. Let's not come for the DPS when it seems healers are struggling to...I don't know. Heal?

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How did you solely stay alive out of a party of 8 if it was strictly healing issues and not ppl doing mechs incorrectly?

To me, if you can queue for it and have little to no communication outside of text chat, there is a difficulty ceiling. Regardless of how much you want to flex about how hard of a thing you can do, it's about the whole.

Also, it's the chill factor. Some people want low pressure raiding, and that's what this is. You take that away if you jack up the difficulty.

I'm just saying. It's the duty finder with random players. Use your brain.

I think back to Stormblood and people abandoning Orbonne. Hell, people still leave it when I get it in roulettes. And it's much easier now. It's a snoozefest, but people still remember how hard it was before. Shoot, I still take the 30-minute penalty if I got Weeping City.

Those threads recently have become really hilarious. People got used to auto-win while spamming 1 or 2 buttons these days. No challenge to overcome, no reason to practice or to improve to get better and immediately give up whenever you stumble or let alone fall down...

Final Fantasy games aren't really considered hardcore by game standards but what they always did well is to test the player at certain intervals if they are ready to push on through their journey and see if they improved throughout the times. This game already just feels like an afk-arena and if you ask for bit more engaging difficulty outside baby mode, you get backlashed to go play darksouls difficulty - it's either easy modo or very hard lunatic mode but all most ppl ask is for a "normal difficulty"

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Originally Posted by Shikiseki

Those threads recently have become really hilarious. People got used to auto-win while spamming 1 or 2 buttons these days. No challenge to overcome, no reason to practice or to improve to get better and immediately give up whenever you stumble or let alone fall down...

Final Fantasy games aren't really considered hardcore by game standards but what they always did well is to test the player at certain intervals if they are ready to push on through their journey and see if they improved throughout the times. This game already just feels like an afk-arena and if you ask for bit more engaging difficulty outside baby mode, you get backlashed to go play darksouls difficulty - it's either easy modo or very hard lunatic mode but all most ppl ask is for a "normal difficulty"

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I'm starting to feel like the XIV developers need to make clear distinctions about the difficulty of content, along with retooling it to meet said expectations. Everyone goes into content with their own expectations, and if they aren't met, they get mad. Instead the content has to be made with a clearly defined difficulty and if someone isn't up to that level, then they need to be told by the development teams that the content either isn't for them, or to git gud. They do this for Ultimates and to a lesser degree, Savage. I wish they'd do it for other difficulties as well so like other games, we'd have a clear path to raiding. Instead we go from babymode dungeons, trials, raids, and ARs, to actually difficult Extreme and Savage with no intermediate difficulty, which the 8m raids realistically should fill.

And this is coming from someone who doesn't savage raid. I don't have the time or patience to find a raid group and progress for hours a week in my anime catgirl game. Most I'll bother with are Extremes, and usually that's a couple weeks after they come out so I can just watch a video and muddle my way through with a PF.

Having enrage timers in DF content is pointless. If you are in a party that is hitting those timers, you're just gonna disband and then the people looking to be carried and not contribute will just queue again and get carried by someone else. Enrage timers in content that you queue for with randoms is pointless. Enrage timers are only pertinent in PF where you can pick and choose members.

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

I'm starting to feel like the XIV developers need to make clear distinctions about the difficulty of content, along with retooling it to meet said expectations. Everyone goes into content with their own expectations, and if they aren't met, they get mad. Instead the content has to be made with a clearly defined difficulty and if someone isn't up to that level, then they need to be told by the development teams that the content either isn't for them, or to git gud. They do this for Ultimates and to a lesser degree, Savage. I wish they'd do it for other difficulties as well so like other games, we'd have a clear path to raiding. Instead we go from babymode dungeons, trials, raids, and ARs, to actually difficult Extreme and Savage with no intermediate difficulty, which the 8m raids realistically should fill.

And this is coming from someone who doesn't savage raid. I don't have the time or patience to find a raid group and progress for hours a week in my anime catgirl game. Most I'll bother with are Extremes, and usually that's a couple weeks after they come out so I can just watch a video and muddle my way through with a PF.

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Extreme fights are the intermediate difficulty. They have an very generous enrage and simple mechanics. I cannot remember the last time an extreme fight was difficult. (shinryu?)
Savage can argue is also intermediate-ish. It's midcore content for sure, especially the first 2 floors and often the 3rd isn't a stretch.

Eh. The difficulty is fine this time arround, no enrage needed.

The heart phase and chaotic bees for M2 will wipe people.

For M3 the boss really puts a strain on the healer once you enter phase 2. Not to mention that healers will die if only 6 are in the stack.

M4 and M1 are mid. Once you know their gimmicks it's fairly straightforward.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

Extreme fights are the intermediate difficulty. They have an very generous enrage and simple mechanics. I cannot remember the last time an extreme fight was difficult. (shinryu?)

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Golbez with a pug... /cry

I think DPS players should mostly get punished for not staying alive instead of judging their ability to push buttons correctly, since optimization/uptime is more of a EX/Savage thing.
DPS checks are rarely reached on NM content and would only create frustration after an already much too long fight.
I'd rather we get mechanics that can't be solved with too few players where everyone simply goes boom, like towers.