You pull you tank question.

CHAOS REIGNS !!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

By the same logic every tank doing more than a single pull is "against ToS". If the DPS can't have awareness of the tank's situation then by the same token you as tank can't have awareness of the healer's situation. How do you know you aren't accidentally griefing by dragging along some poor healer without knowing their cooldown situation? How do you know the DPS are up for the task of killing bigger groups fast enough, for that matter?

See how silly it gets? You have to constantly assume everyone is the worst player ever not to be toxic by this logic.

The DPS assuming you have basic competence is not griefing. It's not ego either.

---

You're arguing my point, trying to claim ToS is stupid.

It's literally griefing dude. The DPS is not trying to sabotage the party when they pull more, in fact they are trusting them. A tank letting DPS die for no reason except pettiness over playstyle is the definition of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

It's literally griefing dude. The DPS is not trying to sabotage the party when they pull more, in fact they are trusting them. A tank letting DPS die for no reason except pettiness over playstyle is the definition of it.

---

No and clearly you've never tanked. A DPS pulling selfishly midway through a fight, which is the example I gave. Is selfish and inconsiderate to the rest of the group. If I have the Cd's to take them off him and he's within reach fine. If I don't you're the bottom of my priority, number 1 is protect everyone else in the group from your selfish decisions. Aka make sure I don't die because then everyone dies, your health bar is now my shield bar.

You're not a tank, you do not pull, your job is to DPS the mobs the tanks pulled, the tanks job is to keep aggro on these mobs and put them in a good place to allow the DPS to maximise their damage output, the healers job is primarily keep the tank alive, followed by keep dps who standing in glowy circles alive. It's called the holy trinity, it's the fundamentals of the combat system this game uses.

If a DPS and tank come to an agreement or if the dps pulls a singular pack to the tank when there's no fight current going on ie, we are just standing there and no one is afk, if you range hit the pack and then stand behind me so I can aoe them as they run through, that's a completely different story. But if you pull an additional pack to the parties fight, mid way through combat, you're selfish and have attention span issues. It's the same as if we are doing an wall to wall and you decide while the tanks gathering up the enemies you wanna full burst a single mob just for the giggles well I'm not running over to pull is off you nor am I wasting a GCD, so get your ass to me or you're tanking it (looking at you red mages, as it's always them doing this.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malthir

No and clearly you've never tanked.

---

LMAO. You've clearly never tanked well.

It really depends on the occasion, and how they play. You take some mobs and get them to the pack where I can get the aggro, no problem. You take some mobs and run around the pack like an headless chicken, and expect me to save your ass, well, I'm not gonna go out of my way to take the aggro back. If I can't get the aggro in time, it's your problem.

The only time I "YPYT" is when I see my healer is struggling, so I have to use more CD than I usually do, and ran out of them. In that case, I'll choose to do a single pack pull, and if you pull more, I'm not gonna do any effort to save your ass.

What I really don't like is when I've been doing big pack the whole time, and there is someone that get before me taking aggro on everything asking me to do more effort than the 2 aoe skill to cement my aggro. I'm litterally talking about waiting 2 seconds because you are in front of me because you were placed better on the previous pack, and got better ranged skills than a tank. Some people do that well, but most of the time it's just annoying, and those 2 second "gained" are always lost, because one mob ended not being aggroed enough.

In the end it's about reading the team. As a tank, you have to watch how your DPS is and how the heal does. If I notice than Heal is struggling or that the DPS is very slow, I'll adapt, and if someone is not ok with that I'm not gonna risk a wipe to satisfy your ego. Wiping is always the one that take the most time.

As a DPS, it's also about reading the tank and the heal. there are time it's obvious the tank knows what's he doing, and taking a few more mobs will not be a problem, but there are times you can see you should not. I'm as annoyed as anyone when I stumble on someone single pulling one pack at a time, but hey, I'm not one to impose a rhythm on people that are obviously struggling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malthir

No and clearly you've never tanked. A DPS pulling selfishly midway through a fight, which is the example I gave. Is selfish and inconsiderate to the rest of the group. If I have the Cd's to take them off him and he's within reach fine. If I don't you're the bottom of my priority, number 1 is protect everyone else in the group from your selfish decisions. Aka make sure I don't die because then everyone dies, your health bar is now my shield bar.

You're not a tank, you do not pull, your job is to DPS the mobs the tanks pulled, the tanks job is to keep aggro on these mobs and put them in a good place to allow the DPS to maximise their damage output, the healers job is primarily keep the tank alive, followed by keep dps who standing in glowy circles alive. It's called the holy trinity, it's the fundamentals of the combat system this game uses.

If a DPS and tank come to an agreement or if the dps pulls a singular pack to the tank when there's no fight current going on ie, we are just standing there and no one is afk, if you range hit the pack and then stand behind me so I can aoe them as they run through, that's a completely different story. But if you pull an additional pack to the parties fight, mid way through combat, you're selfish and have attention span issues. It's the same as if we are doing an wall to wall and you decide while the tanks gathering up the enemies you wanna full burst a single mob just for the giggles well I'm not running over to pull is off you nor am I wasting a GCD, so get your ass to me or you're tanking it (looking at you red mages, as it's always them doing this.)

---

Literally no dungeon in FFXIV is anywhere near difficult enough for you to be this mad and egotistical about someone else pulling lmao. How are you, as a single-pulling tank, so concerned about GCDs and running out of mits? You're playing in the easiest and slowest way possible.

I suggest you look at some guides on mitigation rotations or maybe just use duty support...

most of the time im appreciative because i prefer doing w2w pulls but it is annoying if they aggro one and then run *away* from me like a headless chicken

As the game has gotten easier and easier for like six straight years, it's really telling that we're still having this decade-long conversation.

It's not about difficulty, it's never been about difficulty, it's about ego at the expense of the party.

I tank a lot and I definitely don't mind when other people pulls the mobs.


As long as you pulls them towards me so I can nab them it's fine. :P

As a newbie tank that still struggle a bit with that tankxiety i usually just try to see how the party behaves, if they pull more when i stop i try to speed up to keep up. Only really done stuff up to 60 so yet to learn proper mitigation usage.. but if they think i can take it then i'll at least try and i will take mobs off people if they bring it into the AoE range as others say. I usually just don't know if my gear is good enough to handle a lot of mobs due to rng of dungeon drops, or if healer can manage to keep health up.. among other typical over thinking the situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moxxi

As a newbie tank that still struggle a bit with that tankxiety i usually just try to see how the party behaves, if they pull more when i stop i try to speed up to keep up. Only really done stuff up to 60 so yet to learn proper mitigation usage.. but if they think i can take it then i'll at least try and i will take mobs off people if they bring it into the AoE range as others say. I usually just don't know if my gear is good enough to handle a lot of mobs due to rng of dungeon drops, or if healer can manage to keep health up.. among other typical over thinking the situation.

---

That's a good mindset to have, I'm sure you're doing a great job! Just rotate through your mitigations instead of burning through them all at once and you'll do fine. I like to pop my biggest mit at the beginning of a pull and cycle through smaller ones/shorter CDs like Reprisal, sometimes combined with Arm's Length if the DPS are slacking and things are dying slowly. There's really no wrong way to do it.

Make sure you pick up vendor tome gear every 10 levels as it'll be the highest item level available and will generally last you a very long time. If you're finished with base Heavensward, you should be able to buy level 60 gear from a vendor in Idyllshire (you want the Shire Custodian set for tanks.)

As a tank main there isn't a reason to not w2w pull most dungeons. Of course this is dependent on the healer, if the healer appears to be struggling I'll slow down. That said CAN PICTOMANCERS STOP ATTACKING BEFORE I AM DONE PULLING?! You generate an asinine amount of threat at the start of your rotation and that first pack only has a single AoE threat from me on it. Especially now with my gap closer not having any potency and the stinking delay in mobs registering my presence and I cannot wait until they fix this because it is so annoying. I can work around it, but it will never not irritate me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moxxi

As a newbie tank that still struggle a bit with that tankxiety i usually just try to see how the party behaves, if they pull more when i stop i try to speed up to keep up. Only really done stuff up to 60 so yet to learn proper mitigation usage.. but if they think i can take it then i'll at least try and i will take mobs off people if they bring it into the AoE range as others say. I usually just don't know if my gear is good enough to handle a lot of mobs due to rng of dungeon drops, or if healer can manage to keep health up.. among other typical over thinking the situation.

---

Proper Mitigation usage will never change in dungeons as they all follow the same layout. Trash trash boss x 3. First trash you use Rampart, Reprisal, Arms Length and Personals. Second Trash you use your 30/40%, Reprisal and Personals. Use Invuns if things go south.

The reason you use your Weaker CDs on first trash is because they have shorter cooldowns, and you will usually have your burst damage to absolutely pump the first batch.

Obviously this isn't mandatory but if you follow this Mitigation system you will always have cooldowns for every trash pull and every dungeon will fell the same and it becomes 2nd nature.

Don't use CDs on dungeon bosses other than your 25s personals and Reprisals as these will always be up for every buster / raidwide and also be back before trash pulls start.

New to forum so don't know how to reply to you both in one message. But thank you for the tips, seem to be the general theme from what guides say too. As someone that love DRK i am a bit limited until level 70 on personal stuff that isn't the stronger 30% one. since the others i got is risky invul or magic based =/ But i have tried to get the 50 and 60 gear from tomestones, i just need to build that confidence and understanding.. did make it a habit to check dungeon guides to know what i get into (takeaway from playing a terrible healer on another character up to shadowbringers.)

But to stay on topic there are those cases of 15-50 where i would not be too happy if dps pulls more since tanks are more limited on mitigation, depending on dps job there is a lack of aoe and healer have a bit more work on them. Aurum Vale and stone vigil i have seen mentioned. Since many of those don't have like a wall to stop you from continuing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moxxi

New to forum so don't know how to reply to you both in one message. But thank you for the tips, seem to be the general theme from what guides say too. As someone that love DRK i am a bit limited until level 70 on personal stuff that isn't the stronger 30% one. since the others i got is risky invul or magic based =/ But i have tried to get the 50 and 60 gear from tomestones, i just need to build that confidence and understanding.. did make it a habit to check dungeon guides to know what i get into (takeaway from playing a terrible healer on another character up to shadowbringers.)

But to stay on topic there are those cases of 15-50 where i would not be too happy if dps pulls more since tanks are more limited on mitigation, depending on dps job there is a lack of aoe and healer have a bit more work on them. Aurum Vale and stone vigil i have seen mentioned. Since many of those don't have like a wall to stop you from continuing.

---

As a tank you are geared for almost all w2w pulls. On every job. Including dark, even in bad gear. The issue of keeping you alive Is 100% skill. Either you don't cycle mits enough or you don't cycle heals properly. Also the more you pull big the better u get at it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vrankyl

As a tank main there isn't a reason to not w2w pull most dungeons. Of course this is dependent on the healer, if the healer appears to be struggling I'll slow down. That said CAN PICTOMANCERS STOP ATTACKING BEFORE I AM DONE PULLING?! You generate an asinine amount of threat at the start of your rotation and that first pack only has a single AoE threat from me on it. Especially now with my gap closer not having any potency and the stinking delay in mobs registering my presence and I cannot wait until they fix this because it is so annoying. I can work around it, but it will never not irritate me.

---

They’ve said they’re going to be adjusting tank aggro in the patch because of this… I’m even ripping aggro when I’m on SMN, and I usually wait til the tank stops at his first wall to call out Bahamut! lol

I’m a caster DPS main, but I level everything and after that occasionally I’ll tank on GNB. I have a macro at the beginning that asks my healer how they would prefer their pulls. And I go based off their answer, because I personally find healing stressful and I don’t want to cause anyone else any stress! lol Most healers are fine with wall to wall, a good many prefer it. But there’s still a good many who are new to healing, or it’s not their main class or something they play regularly, so they’re not as confident. I level all my healers and then ignore them til it’s time to get their next 10 levels, unless I’m running with friends in a pre-made party! So I don’t assume every healer, even in high level content, is going to be confident in their role, especially with new skills being thrown in the mix.

Now if the healer wants a slow run and the DPS pull ahead? I’m not going to let them die on purpose, but it might happen if they go beyond the healer’s comfort zone. I’ll do my best to keep them alive, but they knew before the gate came up what the plan was.

While it is probably against ToS (griefing tactic) to refuse to tank, its not really reportable unless he write it off in chat. You can't "refuse to tank" but you can be bad and not "notice" you don't have aggro. (you can also not "notice" the chat begging for you to take aggro) and it also possible to forget tank stance or to click it off by "missclick".



To be fair, dont be a D*** ask the tank and healer if it is possible to pull wall to wall. He refuse? you can try to pull urself and accept the consequence if the tank/healer doesnt play along or quit the dungeon. Up to you

Well, imho, it’s a matter of being good player rather of being good at a specific role/class, especially during dungeons.

And being good player means, among other stuffs, understanding the circumstances of your party and adjust accordingly so everyone can have the smoothest run.
—————————————————-

Long version:

If the tank goes for a W2W pull, dps doesn’t need to pull ahead.
First bc now mobs have aggro on them and every melee can understand how the AoE dpsing works while mobs are moving (spoiler, not really well).
Second bc the real time-saving is achieved not by fast pulling but by fast slaughtering. And you get more dps out coming more mobs are gathered together.

As a Tank, I’m more than: you pulled? Than you wait till my ass is there.
I don’t want to impose my pace to others, nor I want the others do the same with me.
Solution? Middle ground.
And if I see a quick bunny jumping ahead me while I’m in the chill mood I’ll give them a mitigation to mitigate their impatience.

As a Dps/Healer I generally prefer to stand should to shoulder with tank, bc again the real time saving is how much dps I can do while all mobs are gather together.
And pulling ahead achieves only the result of being a much larger weight on healer’s shoulders.

At the end of the day a dungeon runs last between 15/20 minutes, even if it last 30 minutes, I think we are meant to PLAY the game, rather than to RUSH it.
Still, to each their own.

Putting my own two cents into this. I main Warrior, and at times I don't always have the best confidence in myself due to people being outright antagonizing towards me in the past. If I'm doing a new dungeon, I'll let people know it's my first time, or that I am rusty from not tanking in a long time. If a person (Healer or DPS) says to me "You're going to slow, pull more" and I say "I'm going to go at my pace, please let me get used to this dungeon." and one of them pulls mobs towards me when I'm trying to focus on what's in front of me, I get nervous and sometimes really annoyed after trying to be courteous. To me, it's all about communication and respect. If one doesn't listen and respect, that's when you're vote to kick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

Well, imho, it’s a matter of being good player rather of being good at a specific role/class, especially during dungeons.

And being good player means, among other stuffs, understanding the circumstances of your party and adjust accordingly so everyone can have the smoothest run.
—————————————————-

Long version:

If the tank goes for a W2W pull, dps doesn’t need to pull ahead.
First bc now mobs have aggro on them and every melee can understand how the AoE dpsing works while mobs are moving (spoiler, not really well).
Second bc the real time-saving is achieved not by fast pulling but by fast slaughtering. And you get more dps out coming more mobs are gathered together.

As a Tank, I’m more than: you pulled? Than you wait till my ass is there.
I don’t want to impose my pace to others, nor I want the others do the same with me.
Solution? Middle ground.
And if I see a quick bunny jumping ahead me while I’m in the chill mood I’ll give them a mitigation to mitigate their impatience.

As a Dps/Healer I generally prefer to stand should to shoulder with tank, bc again the real time saving is how much dps I can do while all mobs are gather together.
And pulling ahead achieves only the result of being a much larger weight on healer’s shoulders.

At the end of the day a dungeon runs last between 15/20 minutes, even if it last 30 minutes, I think we are meant to PLAY the game, rather than to RUSH it.
Still, to each their own.

---

Good stance.

I've been playing for almost 10 years now and tank is my least played role, probably account for less than 5% of my play time so most of the time other people tank for me. Yet the number of time I run into a "you pull you tank" player is exactly zero. So idk, I feel anyone who claim they run into this often enough for it to be an issue, either they're rage baiting or they need to have reflection about their own play style.

First off you should should identify if they're actually refusing to tank or if they missed some trash that the DPS ripped off with burst while on the move. Dev team has already mentioned aggro adjustments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vrankyl

As a tank main there isn't a reason to not w2w pull most dungeons. Of course this is dependent on the healer, if the healer appears to be struggling I'll slow down. That said CAN PICTOMANCERS STOP ATTACKING BEFORE I AM DONE PULLING?! You generate an asinine amount of threat at the start of your rotation and that first pack only has a single AoE threat from me on it. Especially now with my gap closer not having any potency and the stinking delay in mobs registering my presence and I cannot wait until they fix this because it is so annoying. I can work around it, but it will never not irritate me.

---

From what I understand this is actually an issue with them using an instant cast nuke while moving. I don't really get it, because it would do more damage if it actually hit the whole pack rather than some straggler.

How do you prove that the sprout tank didn't just get overwhelmed and nervous when suddenly new mobs come from all directions, causing them to forget their AOE buttons?

You don't. Forget all the "against the TOS" stuff. It's just not plausible deniability if the tank in question has been tanking for a long time and is supposed to have experience.

I haven't noticed an uptick, but I'm also tanking 98% of the time, so...

My ego isn't that big, and it certainly can't be bruised easily. I think the "you pull you tank" mentality is immature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Ive been seeing significantly more of this since dt started-
Tank says nothing for 90% then gets mad on final pull because sm1 else pulled. Refuses to tank the mobs and even the boss.
Same story every time -

Where exactly do the GMs stand on this issue. Where exactly do the tos stand on this issue? And where do you the players stand on this issue.


Is it against tos?
If not should it be?
Are there exceptions where its okay to refuse to tank?

---

Technically it's reportable and the person doing it can end up with account penalties.




It falls under 2 points in the Terms of Service

- Obstructive behavior that has an adverse impact on other users' gameplay
- Obstructing Gameplay Using Combat




YPYT is not ok, both from a moral and ToS point of view.



A lot of YPYT Tanks like to turn their Tank Stances off because "hur dur only tank pulls!!1" but look...


https://i.imgur.com/uqFUPFd.png






It's fine for DPS to pull, YPYT is immature.

Your job as a Tank isn't necessarily to pull mobs, it's to maintain aggro and take the hits so your fragile group members do not have to.

But if a DPS is going to pull... PLEASE TAKE THE MOBS TO THE TANK... don't run around like a headless chicken.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vrankyl

As a tank main there isn't a reason to not w2w pull most dungeons. Of course this is dependent on the healer, if the healer appears to be struggling I'll slow down. That said CAN PICTOMANCERS STOP ATTACKING BEFORE I AM DONE PULLING?! You generate an asinine amount of threat at the start of your rotation and that first pack only has a single AoE threat from me on it. Especially now with my gap closer not having any potency and the stinking delay in mobs registering my presence and I cannot wait until they fix this because it is so annoying. I can work around it, but it will never not irritate me.

---

I've even taken to doing a couple more swings of AoE to account for it and I still end up at the second set with a green button and a picto trying to tank it halfway back to the start of the pull area. If they would just bring it over it could either get picked up in my AoEs or I could Lightning Shot it or something to get it off them. But most of them don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FudoMyoo

If you play tank long enough, you will encounter these players. They can sprint too ... right?

Especially for some DPS, they can't resist this as they need to keep the combo skills on-going. Mainly we are referring to those who deliberately sprint in front of you, pulling everything and letting us (tank) sort out the hate. They don't finish the kill and sprint to the next batch of mobs.

---

been playing since 1.0, still dont have that problem. skill issue

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Conando

From what I understand this is actually an issue with them using an instant cast nuke while moving. I don't really get it, because it would do more damage if it actually hit the whole pack rather than some straggler.

---

Putting things on cooldown immediately means that you can use them more times over the course of the dungeon which results in significantly higher damage than waiting to use them later would.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vrankyl

As a tank main there isn't a reason to not w2w pull most dungeons. Of course this is dependent on the healer, if the healer appears to be struggling I'll slow down. That said CAN PICTOMANCERS STOP ATTACKING BEFORE I AM DONE PULLING?! You generate an asinine amount of threat at the start of your rotation and that first pack only has a single AoE threat from me on it. Especially now with my gap closer not having any potency and the stinking delay in mobs registering my presence and I cannot wait until they fix this because it is so annoying. I can work around it, but it will never not irritate me.

---

You actually get a +1 from me.

I have not leveled my Tanks much but I have levelled picto. I noticed while leveling if I bursted before tank finished pulling I was dead.

What I did was use my aoe cast combo when I could and swift cast while running.

Why are ppl bursting 3 mobs when they could burst 6/7?

This is a result of the agro generation been nerfed from STB. Ppl just don't know how to play with agro generation and why Tanks agro is getting buffed.

God help these people if they had to actually watch their agro generation or get flat out KOED. Lmao.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DivineP

You actually get a +1 from me.

I have not leveled my Tanks much but I have levelled picto. I noticed while leveling if I bursted before tank finished pulling I was dead.

What I did was use my aoe cast combo when I could and swift cast while running.

Why are ppl bursting 3 mobs when they could burst 6/7?

This is a result of the agro generation been nerfed from STB. Ppl just don't know how to play with agro generation and why Tanks agro is getting buffed.

God help these people if they had to actually watch their agro generation or get flat out KOED. Lmao.

---

Yeah, some people need to watch themselves mid pull, that's for sure. If someone goes ham on an enemy or two while I'm in the midst of a wall to wall pull, I'll just pick them back up when I stop. That's not a "you pull you tank" moment, that is just trying to do my job efficiently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Yeah, some people need to watch themselves mid pull, that's for sure. If someone goes ham on an enemy or two while I'm in the midst of a wall to wall pull, I'll just pick them back up when I stop. That's not a "you pull you tank" moment, that is just trying to do my job efficiently.

---

Some tanks just aren't trying at all though. I've had a couple runs where I've pulled off the tank with Eukrasian Dyskrasia. From pack A to pack B I've done maybe 120 potency worth of damage, why am I now tanking?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Some tanks just aren't trying at all though. I've had a couple runs where I've pulled off the tank with Eukrasian Dyskrasia. From pack A to pack B I've done maybe 120 potency worth of damage, why am I now tanking?

---

There's not really a good excuse for that, so they should be doing better at keeping aggro.

Having leveled a good chunk of dps to at least 30-40 range... you'll be surprised how many sprouts that seem to be clueless on what they are doing, usually in that range i think that you see the less great tanks.. Those that forget to tank stance, use their aoe or even don't know where they are going.. and that is coming from a returning player that did possibly way too much research before daring to queue up and the novice hall for quick gear to start with ._. One dungeon i as a machinist were kind of the tank for half of it because the tank just didn't aoe or keep up.

You Tank You Pull is only acceptable in one case.

When the DPS takes a add during a pull to then stand in Narnia while the add is behind a object or outside of Provoke range.
I will not leave the healer Bubble and placed aoe field to grab that single add.

You pulled it, you bring it back to its friends.


Often the DDs pulling do not know how to pull.
They just attack the monster and let them run wild everywhere. That can lead to much more stress for the Tank and Healer.

It's not the tank roles job to pull.
But it is the tank roles job to tank things that are pulled.

If a tank ever gets mad something else was pulled, I feel that they should instead look at themselves for not going fast enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigCheez

Putting things on cooldown immediately means that you can use them more times over the course of the dungeon which results in significantly higher damage than waiting to use them later would.

---

Ok, then bring it over rather than standing 30 feet away while it's eating your butt and everything else is bunched up in an AoE puddle already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Conando

Ok, then bring it over rather than standing 30 feet away while it's eating your butt and everything else is bunched up in an AoE puddle already.

---

Non-sequitur.

It sounds like ppl being privelage and demanding you play ff14 by their rules.