If you're seriously losing fun when the dungeon takes 5 more minutes I'd suggest to seriously review your priorities. Maybe you're not having fun already by doing dungeons, and the problem is probably somewhere else?
Do you know why the average pf player is so bad?
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03-20-2024, 04:45 AMValence
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03-20-2024, 05:15 AMThurmnmurmnAh yes, the good ol' strawman argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
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03-20-2024, 07:36 AMNaddaThat's not what I meant at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
I meant it's not fun based on what you said. The player who doesn't care they are bad and doesn't seek to improve. If that player's fun comes at the cost of stressing out other players by making them have to deal with them, I don't think that's very fun. We want to chill we want to relax, have an easy run, and go about our day. The only person chilled and relaxed is the person taking advantage of those who do care.
Don't you think that's selfish? It's a social game you need players to be able to do what their role is to some degree of competency. The higher your number next to your role the more I expect you to know. My expectation of a sprout at 40 is different than a sprout at 70, 80 and when they reach 90.
I've played Whitemage for 8 years solid singularly as my main job I played. I'm tolerant as I said of people making mistakes, you see it all the time.
But being tolerant of something doesn't mean it's okay - and it's not like I assume malice of the player on them being bad. It has little to do with dungeons. We're talking about PF for higher-end content specifically. Dungeons and normal trials should be preparing you but it's not. So if you're already dead weight in a dungeon, what's the expectation for harder content then where it starts to become increasingly more difficult to cover for other peoples mistakes? Where does it end? To what extent must we accommodate?
What I have suggested and many others have suggested is that it's not inherently the player's fault, the game should acclimate players to be competent for their level in the role they are playing.
Competent enough should they choose to take their steps into harder content it's less of a wall and more of a hurdle. -
03-20-2024, 06:24 PMErzaaIt has everything to do with dungeons though. You replied to a post discussing dungeons, and are instead bringing up PF related etiquette. (Edit: I'm saying the reply to the poster, not the overall thread)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
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Originally Posted by Nadda
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Originally Posted by Nadda
The game provides you all the tools you need to play the game with the types of players that meet your criteria. You can create your own PFs and linkshells and network with the types of players who take the game more seriously... and that's fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
But once you queue up into Duty Finder, you agree to play with the team the Duty Finder matches you with, or... take the penalty. If you queue up to someone else's PF, you meet their standards or... leave them and find ones that are more in line with yours. Demanding a particular skill level from the team you're randomly matched with, is a you problem, and in the other players' point of view, you're the selfish one, trying to hinder their fun, just to save a few minutes of your day.
Now, if someone without the skills, lies their way into your PF and ruins your day, then sure, complain all you want.
Perhaps it should, perhaps it shouldn't. The game is trying to appeal to a wide audience, with differing views and opinions on what constitutes fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
Players who're interested in more difficult content will learn and do it regardless, players who aren't, won't ever care. Trying to force people into content they're not interested in, is how you lose your customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
And not all players care about improving in their entertainment medium, nor should they. Having to do homework, look up spreadsheets and guides, and practice punching a dummy is boring, it's tedium, and all for what? Just to play a game to meet someone else's standards?
They're not dead weight if they're pressing their buttons and trying to do any damage, or if they're doing mechanics and happen to play suboptimally and/or make mistakes. If they're hanging around at the entrance doing nothing, you then have an argument for dead weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
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03-20-2024, 09:22 PMValenceThe problem is more that I don't comprehend how it even stresses you out. It's a random casual dungeon. I don't comprehend how you care so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
Wait, we are talking about PF and higher end content now? -
03-20-2024, 09:41 PMThurmnmurmnIt's always been about pf (read the thread title).Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
The only mention of dungeons is that they're a reason why the player base is bad. -
03-20-2024, 10:23 PMDaeriion_Aeradiira number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean, which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in the set by their number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
When the majority of players are bad at the game, by definition, the average player will also be bad, as the mean will be heavily skewed towards the 'bad' end. The only time the average player can be contextually 'good' is when the vast majority of players are 'good', which isn't the case here.
You don't even need something as drastic as Extremes to showcase this, just go do all the harder alliance raid out there over and over (and hilariously enough, even easier stuff like Thalaeia/Euphrosyne (Tetrapagos in particular is a fun mechanic to watch people eat it in droves on)) and watch in abject horror the sheer amount of players who die to mechanics that would be so utterly trivial to anyone who was actually of "average" skill in a game with a more smoother skill curve.
Even back in the day, Deluburum/Dalriada/Castrum were full of people dropping like flies to trivially easy mechanics, and those fights I would consider closer to a true 'midcore' level. The elemental boss of Castrum in particular would see bodies piling up if he used any elemental combo that wasn't the easiest one (Earth + Fire in particular would rack up a killstreak) -
03-20-2024, 10:25 PMSaraideI farmed those people for the rez title.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir
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03-20-2024, 10:53 PMNaddaMy suggestion to you if you can't comprehend where I'm coming from is to start by trying to do that. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who does care so much and why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
To answer your second question the thread is asking "Do you know why the average pf player is so bad" - maybe it has more to do with verbiage but when I think PF I think of doing EXs/Unreals, Savage or Ultimates.
Not Dungeons we do in duty roulette.
Dungeons and normal trials factor into the discussion but only to the extent that they aren't challenging enough in regards to acclimating player competency to enter other content. So it is and isn't about dungeons.
I think you are misunderstanding something which is saying I'm demanding a particular skill level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erzaa
Again. I was addressing the hypothetical player that was proposed. One that could honestly be created within the current content pipeline.
The idea it doesn't matter how competent they are based on their level as long as they are personally having fun, is self-indulgent. To be accepting of that behavior is coddling and atrophies player growth.
Now I'll say this for a third time. I am tolerant of your run of the mill random goof you'll find in a duty roulette.
Being tolerant doesn't make it okay. Especially at the expense of others because one person's fun shouldn't infringe on everybody else's fun.
Yes, you do agree to be randomly paired with people in a duty roulette (I'll be moving the conversation towards PF in a bit) but you know part of that social contract is also having the competency to play your role. Otherwise, you're most certainly griefing a group. Especially when you're talking about higher levels (as in actual levels in this case) of content.
To add an additional thought experiment to the mix; it's like for example an individual who doesn't know how to heal, queueing up as a healer to do all their duty roulettes because they know their queues will instantly pop and that they'll get all the juicy rewards at the end because they queued healer.
This is a random example but my point about that type of player is that according to you that becomes a "You" problem for me. I didn't choose this person. Sure I randomly got stuck with the person but wouldn't you agree then at least within the confines of this hypothetical at least that the person who queued up as a healer main has some form of responsibility in doing that job competently? It's kinda like, being the person on the air plane next to the emergency door. You get the extra leg room (fast queue times) but the social expectation is for you to help people in a crisis.
Are we then going to argue when the plane is on fire that it's our fault some random person who decided to opt into that chair decides not to help anyone and is the first person off the plane? (actually, ignore that question, I know most gamers at large are cynical - but my point stands)
now of course duty roulettes aren't life or death. Though I'd also argue that the suggestion that people would just take leaver penalties because of a single bad player is obtuse. You'll tolerate it. As I said but that doesn't make it good.
This is sort of what the thread is about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erzaa
Again I've not suggested content as it stands needs to become non-approachable to a wider audience. The game can become better at gradually introducing concepts and inducing more instances of danger to over time cause people to acclimate naturally. Believe it or not that's what the casual content's intended purpose is. We hear a lot about needing to manufacture more midcore content to bridge the gap between normal content to EX/Unreal.
I don't believe there would be such a gap if we just cranked the heat up on normal content progressively throughout your leveling process so by max level in the job you are playing EX/Unreal will still be a hurdle (so it will be difficult) but you won't have this result where the skill gap is so large because the base game asks so little of you before then that you quit because it's too staggering.
It's almost ironic beforehand I'm told I'm a gatekeeper and then to another, I'm forcing people into content they aren't interested in. I digress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erzaa
You're absolutely right. Players who don't care won't ever care and I can't force them to do things they don't want.
I don't particularly care for the players who don't care. tbh
I care about the players we lose for higher levels (talking about difficulty this time) of content because the base game never asked anything of them and they are faced with this massive skill wall and quit before they even try to learn.
We should be doing a better job to make that transition easier for people who do care.
Based on the second statement underneath I'm assuming you're a former WoW player? lol I don't want people to be running sims, using fflogs or xivanalysis - I'm not endorsing that. You don't even need to do those things to be competent or do EXs/Unreals.
To your last point. Yes, they are dead weight. I'm not going to pretend they aren't dead weight. I'm not soft or sentimental when it comes to reasonable expectations. Now I'll still carry dead weight to the finish line to the bitter end but that's because I like the exercise. Especially as a healer. Makes my job more interesting but they are a burden they need to try harder. Everyone makes mistakes but mistakes aren't routine. -
03-20-2024, 11:06 PMstrawberrycakeIt's not about being against the rules, you're missing the point, Look specifically at what I said The average player is bad because they do not know the fundamentals the game itself expects you to know. There are no "Play Styles". The game expects you to know the difference between a Stack and a Multi Stack, It expects you to infer based on what you see to understand and adapt. We learn this in School, jobs even teach you like this, It's literally, being shown an example, and then being shown the answer, from there you can infer so much. At this point, it's the player, not the game, because the game has shown you the needed information through out the lvling process, and other high content.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
At this point any inability to keep up is a lack of willingness to learn on the players part, this would happen if the game was harder, but the fact that it's easier, makes it so much more of an exacerbated issue. If XIV was more complex, which it has been, people would get so much more grace with such basic issues. But now that it's so much more ...manageable for lack of better words and people still struggle, it's telling of the player, not the game. I'm speaking on the basics ofc, because thats how black and white this playerbase is in NA, theres not much room for nuance, they're either someone who understands and or someone who doesn't. And like it's been said above me, the Majority of average players in XIV are, bad, and there no real exception for that.
Making your own groups is definitely a choice, but it's not one always available. I'm also assuming you're saying the whole hard up on playing with good players thing as a general statement as I'm not, simply stating the facts that people in XIV, are pretty bad at learning what this game teaches. But when I play with randos I expect people to be bad, hence why I heal, the facts that I can carry runs by myself is a testament to how much Yoshida has over simplified this game and needs to rethink how things are going. Because I should be able to hold a basic standard to other humans, the devs making the game like this isn't an excuse for that and it shows in both EU and JP, do Your part we're not here to carry and baby you. I can't wait for the day we get back to that mindset in NA.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaynide
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03-21-2024, 12:06 AMErzaa
There's alot here to reply to, I hope I clarified at least most of it.
Dungeons and normal trials are always challenging the first time. New mechanics are introduced, between HW and SB and then SB and ShB there's a large leap in difficulty in mechanics. New icons are introduced, new patterns, less telegraphs, more requirement to watch your surroundings or the boss, or know in advance what the ability in the cast bar does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
And alot of these mechanics can feel cheap to new players, because they outright die on their first or second attempt, because it's as if the game expects them to peer into the future.
The challenge is lost on repeated attempts, once a player knows the fight and exactly what they need to do.
You explain it as some personal affront to you and other players who like high-end content. It's not. It's a video game. It's meant to be fun entertainment. Treat it as such. And yes, if you don't like the average PF player and don't want to play with them, then don't. As I said, you have the tools necessary to associate with the types of players you want to play with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
Interesting you should mention this. Because I've seen this with a friend, during my early sprout days. Except, this person wasn't interested in quick queues or rewards, they just wanted to try a healer role. A friend who enjoys games casually, only for fun. Having a tank sit at the entrance of the dungeon and not move on the first wipe, then cast a vote kick, in a level 30 dungeon no less. Without going into details, this is a person who's done far more with their life than most, experienced more, and who outright quit the game, because some veteran player just couldn't be patient, not out of anger, or spite, but because it was just so silly. A veteran player drove away a sprout player who tried to heal their first dungeon. Tell me who the real dead weight was? Tell me again how this is SE's fault? Tell me again how gatekeeping is an invalid argument?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
You chose to join this person's PF or join the Duty Finder, whichever case it may be. As such, you chose to play with what you were given. This person does have an obligation to do the best they can to clear, as do you. If said player is standing around doing nothing, you've every right to complain, as I stated before. But their skill level versus yours doesn't matter, worry about your own performance and not about what the other person is doing. At most, you'll lose a few minutes of your day, or, you can exit gracefully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
You may very well be right the a slight increase in difficulty might help players become more accustomed to it. It may force players to improve, it may drive them away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
But, what about the third possibility? The risk in the increase in resentment between good players and casual players, as now the casual players will feel more pressure to perform or be called out, and the good players who will have even more time out of their day wasted, because they'll feel like they need to put in additional effort to carry the bad players?
I'd like to address this point, because on this, it particularly applies to me too. While I've no interest in Savages or Ultimates at all, I've neither the time nor energy to put so much effort into doing those, when it comes to Extremes, I've done the ARR and HW ones sync'ed, while I was still a sprout, and stopped doing them after HW expansion. The reason wasn't the difficulty spikes, or the fear of new mechanics; it was other players. I've completed plenty of single player games on their hardest difficulties. It might take me a bit longer than other players, but I already know I can do it. It's not a fear of difficulty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
It's the types of players who frequent these forums complaining about other players' skill (and I don't mean you or anyone else specifically, just in general). Because, to players who've already completed these many times, such that they became easy, they don't have the patience to work with new players still learning the ropes. No, you're not expected to go in blind, you must lookup the guide. No, you're not allowed to read the tooltips and learn a "good enough" rotation that works for you, you must join The Balance and learn your optimal rotation. No, you can't fail the mechanic more than a few times, you must learn the mechanics and understand them on their timeframe.
There's plenty the game doesn't teach you properly, I've no argument with that. And I'm definitely not against more resources in the game to teach more. But, if it's not in the game, then the game isn't demanding it. If the game isn't demanding it, then I'll not be held hostage to the demands of other players who feel like I should play the game their way. That's why the arguments for gatekeeping come up so much.
The veteran playerbase has a my way or the highway attitude to the harder content, which, I've no issue with in theory, but I'm going to choose the highway. I'll wait for that content to be easy enough for myself and a couple of friends to do it unsync'ed. Because, at the end of the day, that's all it is, just a game. Entertainment. Being good or bad at a video game means nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Many players stay away from harder content because of the attitude other players display, and that's not the game's fault or SE's fault.
I'm not. I came from SWTOR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
This is a bold statement. It assumes your expectations are reasonable to begin with. In my personal opinion, as long as the player is pressing their buttons, trying to be active within the fight, and don't try and intrude on a PF clearly marked for good players, clear parties, farm parties etc., that's reasonable and they're not dead weight and can enjoy the game any way they like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
In many ways, I'm glad at many of SE's measures to avoid toxicity in this game. If the stories I've heard about WoW are true, if FF was anything like it, I would've left the game within a few months. So, whatever SE is doing, seems to working, because I'm still here, 4,5 years later. -
03-21-2024, 12:19 AMNaddaI'd argue that grouping up with only "good" players creates bubbles of isolation.Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberrycake
And that is what makes MMOs turn into gatekeeping.
Because if we are to say; group up with only good players. Good players have no problem doing that.
But that is a double-edged sword and we've seen what it does to other games.
The problem would then become if the people who are bad want to join in on this content which right now we're being told they don't want to take part of it... They won't be able to when they do want to.
Good players will start disseminating and differentiating standards whether that be gear or fflogs of what's acceptable and are not going to take in bad players. (We sort of have that already for PF) <- This should be concerning for people who think we shouldn't care.
Bad players will then be told to form FCs, Statics or run PF groups of their own since they will start to complain about not being able to do harder content because of the standards they can't meet.
The tried and true; "I want to raid but they won't let me in because I have no parses, I have no parses because nobody will let me raid"
But you will be able to raid. Just with other people of your skill level. But they don't want to play with people at their own level - they want to be carried - or they want to play where the good players are but they can't because they did not care enough.
They never showed initiative before so now in this cursed timeline where these issues aren't addressed we've created an environment similar to WoW.
All we needed to do was make adjustments which asked just a pinch more of a player according to their level and the role they play.
What's crazy is I want to get these people into our high-end content naturally so this doesn't happen.
It may not seem important but it actually is for the health of the game and the community that matters like this get addressed.
The higher-end content is only going to get harder from here on out and I don't think every expansion is going to have Eureka/Bozja zone to fit the midcore playstyle to address this issue properly. So we'll end up with more EW situations where I'm being told that the difficulty curve is too steep. We have to address this and fix this but it's gonna have to involve asking more from players. Just a little bit, nothing insane, just more than we ask of them now, so by max level they are competent enough to enter into these spaces without fear or being faced with a skill wall.
As I said before we want to change that wall to a hurdle. Still difficult but something where it's because you're inexperienced in the fight - not inexperienced in the skill and know how of how your job functions.
MSQ is several hundred hours long at this point. The game has the length and the time to slowly get people to be competent.
I'll say this much to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erzaa
You seem like a very kind person but your kindness is being misplaced and you're doing more harm to the players we're talking about.
What my suggestions are and what many people are suggesting is trying to help those people. Maybe in a very abrasive way which isn't good way to communicate either. I'm at fault for this. But Coddling people is not good for them.
Our community is so welcoming and forgiving I like this about FF but at the same time the gameplay has become too accommodating sure that's for a mass audience
And it should remain accommodating. Just crank the heat up a pinch... not even enough to be noticeable. (but in the long run makes a long enough impact on player performance.. MSQ is several hundred hours long at this point, that's plenty enough time to get people prepared so they aren't left behind)
I don't want the game to become super sweaty try hard any of that... or for bad players to be harassed.
I want them to be better because I know they can be. But they can't be better by holding them back and pretending like everything is okay. -
03-21-2024, 12:53 AMstrawberrycakeIt's why I dislike how so many in this community act all of the time. As soon as someone who's familiar with the games content and how it all functions steps up and speaks on not only the games issues, but the communities issues, people wanna run away from the very obvious truth and focus on semantics and personal situations over the facts of how MMOs work and then fixing all these problems becomes overly tedious. Too many people feel personally attacked by saying things can be better, and I wish they didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
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03-21-2024, 03:31 AMThemarvin
Patience is the key with everything, you are a bad player because your patience runs up as someone may need a little bit more to reach the end in PF of whatever duty.
They key is patience with everything and spending the time trying to beat the content, you may even get a little bit better yourself and if you succeed or fail to beat it.. then the ones you where with has gotten a little bit better including yourself, meaning if you end up joining a good group, they would not yell at you, for you doing your job badly and can somewhat keep up with the good players.
Patience and time will solve alot of things, wielding patience is difficult though and a feature you must learn if you want to get along with others more easy, it would also motivate yourself and others around you if you got patience. -
03-21-2024, 10:22 PMValence
Also people that truly think that the game was harder before truly have a serious case of rose tinted glasses. Job/battle system wise? Yeah. Encounter wise in ex/savage/ultimate? No, quite the opposite.
And let's not talk about the trite fallacies of equating knowledge with execution..
1) How can I put myself into the shoes of someone that I don't comprehend at all? I'm sorry but I don't exactly have the rosetta stone for this. Would be very convenient tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadda
2) If we're not speaking about people being "bad" in casual content but in challenging content, then disregard what I said in my previous posts. -
03-21-2024, 11:14 PMNadda1) I'll refer you to my first response you quoted just now. I can understand sometimes it can be difficult to relate to people especially when you can't imagine how they reached the conclusions they did but you should try it out. It's a good thought experiment for other things relating to life. The idea of there being two sides to every story and there being truth somewhere in the middle. You can have conflicting ideas but by understanding your opposition you attain a clearer image of truth that is often shrouded in the fog of war of seemingly opposing ideas because there's a bit of truth in both points of view or factors we can agree on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valence
2) I wouldn't worry about it too much, I very often can misunderstand the central focus of discussions, it is good though to express what you think and feel, what you had to say about dungeons is part of it like I said but not exactly pertaining to the PF part.
Being "bad" in dungeons plays a role in the game not doing a good job of naturally acclimating players to proper competency at levels.
I mean one could also argue you go into a dungeon you've not done in a long time like an Old ARR dungeon/trial that has some weird janky 2.0 mechanics that don't make sense. Or heck you could be a black mage player and your job completely changes depending on what level you're playing and having to re-remember what playing the job at 60 feels like. I mean, is that player "bad" perse - No, but you know it's a very ill-defined and subjective spectrum of your average dungeon run.
The kind of "bad" I'd be referring to wouldn't be someone who makes mistakes or goofs. We're simply not made to be perfect. Or even someone who is being malicious in any way.
Bad be more about lacking job competency and execution for your level when entering higher difficulty content.
In part the base content dungeons or trials, are there for our mass audience of players of differing wants and desires to be shuttled through content, it's not supposed to be difficult. It is however supposed to be challenging enough for players to be engaged and prepare you for the more advanced levels of content.
====TL;DR I go off on a long tangent further explaining my point of view======
Especially a normal trial. Normal Trials sort of showcase some of the things you'll see in Extreme. (sometimes dungeons while being all sort of unique will also showcase things that might happen with trial bosses you'll face later) the issue inherent though is the normal stuff is far too forgiving of mistakes at players' character level it creates a complacency in skills you'd need to acquire to enter the Extreme.
Should you WANT to - to reinforce I'm not talking about the individuals who avoid the content on purpose.
The issue has become - our learning content has become too accommodating of mistakes and doesn't ask enough of players to be competent. So players who do want to join high-end content after reaching max level or just to see what old extremes or old savages were like get hit with this huge skill wall of:
"Oh I actually don't know how to play my job"
or get discombobulated by all the high-end verbiage it's too much to learn all at once and that's fair the game hasn't prepared them for it. (not saying we need call outs for normal content, It's easier to fix the first part through natural gameplay)
And when gamers in general are confronted with drastic spikes in difficulty right away people quit that content before trying. "I guess it's just not for me"
This isn't good for the health of the game because when we end up with expansions like EW that lacking a midcore option sort of created two bubbles of super easy casual content and then super difficult raid content.
By making things too easy we make a small gap EX/Unreals which should be midcorish feel like a canyon to inexperienced players to the extent it's too intimidating for them.
Now obviously having an Eureka/Bozja fixes that but we can't always rely on that the devs are going to have something like that in place every expansion - it's very resource intensive to keep that up. So what do we do in another EW situation? Something has to give.
My and others' suggestions be turning up the heat just a pinch at rates that players wouldn't notice an increase in difficulty but by the time they are max level they've acclimated to a competency rate they can enter spaces of difficulty and be faced with a hurdle not a wall. Nothing super sweaty try hard - just bit by bit making those malmstones. 50 (hard), 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 hit and feel different. Instilling that instinct of competency.
By addressing this issue in a subtle way; we ensure that the game doesn't create a social structure of isolated bubbles but a venn diagram where we can all meet in the middle and have cake/pie. -
03-22-2024, 12:24 AMstrawberrycake
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GJI_ZbyW...png&name=small
This is the type of stuff we need in hall of Novice, and it needs to be mandatory. -
03-22-2024, 01:07 AMNaddaNot a bad solution at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberrycake
A proper training regiment coupled with acclimating difficulty for players at x malmstones of levels to achieve certain competency levels would greatly improve the player experience.
It should also be said and cannot be understated. Nobody should condone the harassment or belittlement of low-skill competent players.
That said I will tolerate low-skill players however I expect them to be prepared not perfect if they choose to play in high-end PF content.
There is a difference.
Let's bridge those gaps so that people can enjoy the full range of content and not be barred from it!