Let's play a game: Save the Ancients!

G'raha himself theorized that that is the reason he was not simply erased, as he thought he would be once the timeline had been changed, and the one Tales of the Shadow confirmed that yes, the timeline did branch. WoL would trust G'raha enough to know that it would be possible to do it again.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

And yes, it is an unfortunate mismatch of themes that this gamble is exactly what G'raha was doing with the 8UE, which has always seemed like bad writing – again it seems like the writers were wanting to have it multiple ways at once at the small scale without stepping back to observe the contradictions. They pulled their punches on just how bad things were, when things needed to be irreversibly dire to justify what they were doing.

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Yeah, my second-biggest 'I wouldn't have done that' issue with the game's story (behind killing Ysayle) is that short story, which I think just undercuts G'raha's journey in ways that really take away from him; now he didn't just make a difficult decision to evacuate a doomed timeline with no chance of revival, he just made a big deal out of leaving it. And also it doesn't have no chance of revival, that story is clearly written as if things will turn around, although it's admittedly just vague hopes and assurances.

I think there's people who read it as assurance that 'we could've saved the Ancients and everything would be just fine', but I honestly don't think so. Not only does that not hold--the Scions were waiting for the WoL to come back with crucial information and were completely screwed if they didn't get it, while nobody in the 8UC timeline really wanted or needed G'raha to be around--but honestly, I don't think the people arguing for saving the Ancients really needed it, they'd already decided they were letting the modern world die in favor of the perfect pretty people.

If I were to really chew on the 8UC timeline's situation I feel like its savior could come from Labyrinthos; it'd probably survive even if Sharlayan got gassed, and as essentially a seed bank, it'd have all the material to revive the world once the active threats dissolved. It'd even explain why none of the active people in the 8UC stories knew about it. But yeah, that's probably more thought put into the 8UC timeline's greater context than the writers did, or thought we'd do.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

G'raha himself theorized that that is the reason he was not simply erased, as he thought he would be once the timeline had been changed, and the one Tales of the Shadow confirmed that yes, the timeline did branch. WoL would trust G'raha enough to know that it would be possible to do it again.

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Theorised in the general usage of the word, yes, but it's merely a hypothesis with no way of being tested. The characters have no way (to our awareness) to confirm whether the other timeline still exists alongside their own, or whether it is gone forever and G'raha survived simply by being in the new timeline when it overwrote the old one.

I have to thank a friend for this, but there is yet another context clue for the protagonist that the timeline G'raha hailed from still exists: G'raha's memories of that timeline still exist. If the timeline had vanished, the aether that makes up G'raha's memories of that timeline would have poofed too. They didn't, as we'd know because we uh. . .inserted those memories into his younger body on the source?

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

I have to thank a friend for this, but there is yet another context clue for the protagonist that the timeline G'raha hailed from still exists: G'raha's memories of that timeline still exist. If the timeline had vanished, the aether that makes up G'raha's memories of that timeline would have poofed too. They didn't, as we'd know because we uh. . .inserted those memories into his younger body on the source?

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Your friend's 'clue' makes no sense whatsoever. For that to be evidence we'd need to have evidence that that's how it works in the first place, and that evidence just doesn't exist. It especially doesn't exist to the WoL, whose knowledge of tiem travel up to that point has been learning G'raha Tia, and probably also doing Alexander; in neither case did this observably happen. Your friend seems to be assuming that it works like other franchises' time travel works, like Star Trek or Doctor Who, but with no evidence that they actually do. ...except in most cases, those franchises also build in sort of an immunity to those effects for the time travellers, including both Star Trek and Doctor Who. Which, if that's how FFXIV works, would also leave G'raha able to remember everything just fine. So even if the WoL is an avid Whovian, this wouldn't register as evidence.

...and all of this is also ignoring that this isn't actually the issue, the issue is that changing the timeline strands you. Which is a pretty crucial thing in this case: unlike G'raha, whose original timeline didn't really have anything important for him to do, the WoL has a very specific job of 'go find out what an Elpis is and then come back and tell us if that's helpful'. I don't care how much questionably-educated faith the WoL has in the fact their home timeline will still exist, that's not the problem: the problem is that if they change the timeline, they can't go back to the one that needs their help.

Frankly, I'm surprised you don't reflexively know this, because the one that said it directly to our face is the Ascian you glorify in your signature. I would've thought that you of all people would've commited his whole thing to memory, but I'll happily link it if you haven't. Incidentally, I do find that it's a pretty poetic use of language by the localizaton team: he warns us that 'we cannot reshape the past', and at first it sounds like it's cannot as in 'won't be capable of', but it soon becomes clear it's cannot as in 'you mustn't'. Which, incidentally, makes more sense given we're using the same technique G'raha used, and we know where G'raha can't go back to.

And ya know what? That is where telling them after the congruence in a way that it won't matter if it strands us comes in. Besides, if we leave behind a message in a bottle so to speak for them to find after we've gone back no harm, no foul. How can it strand us if we've already returned and the timeline is still in flux? Is there a chance our message in a bottle may not be found in time? sure, but it's better than being "hurp a derp, nothing we can do" with our fingers in our ears and our thumbs up our butts.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

but honestly, I don't think the people arguing for saving the Ancients really needed it, they'd already decided they were letting the modern world die in favor of the perfect pretty people.

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When you actually find any evidence demonstrating the existence of these people who have supposedly claimed they want the mortals to die in favour of the Ancients, or literally anywhere their appearance or, uh, "perfection" (I mean, really?) has been shown to play into these arguments, let me know. In the mean time, I'll send you over some straw, you must be running low by now.

On a brighter note, using the 8UC as a basis as to how one might conceivably save the Ancients could actually make for an interesting discussion. The point about how aware the Scions are regarding the ramifications of G'raha's time travel is a good one too. How might they ascertain the existence of the alternate timeline? Could what happened there, combined with Elpis, give them pause to consider time travel as a tool in certain scenarios? Should it, even? And would they be prompted to use it to save the Ancients somewhere down the line? And how? Thinking about it, if they truly wanted to go down that route at some point, that seems like the most viable way to do so.

...though on appraisal, perhaps a discussion for an altogether different thread, where good faith has a chance of being slightly more tangible than the mythical unicorn and the responses somewhat more coherent for not staggering under the attempt to bear the weight of their own perceived self-importance. Still, a fascinating subject, nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

When you actually find any evidence demonstrating the existence of these people who have supposedly claimed they want the mortals to die in favour of the Ancients, or literally anywhere their appearance or, uh, "perfection" (I mean, really?) has been shown to play into these arguments, let me know. In the mean time, I'll send you over some straw, you must be running low by now.

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The present Etheirys and the World Unsundered are mutually exclusive. They cannot exist at the same time. As Cleretic said, if WoL were to somehow intervene and change the past, the Etheirys that they know, the one with all the people, places, and life they know and love, will be grandfather paradoxed out of existence as far as WoL could know. This also means all of the people of the Reflections would never exist too, such as the people of the First.

Even if we could create a branching timeline, that means we'd never be able to return to the main story's timeline just as G'raha could never return to his. And that timeline's Etheirys would be rendered a dead, barren wasteland by the Final Days without WoL bringing knowledge of Meteion back to the present.

Also, there are PLENTY of people on these forums who want all the reflections gone in favor of the Unsundered World and openly talk about their disappointment in us not letting the Ascians finish their plan.

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Besides, if we leave behind a message in a bottle so to speak for them to find after we've gone back no harm, no foul. How can it strand us if we've already returned and the timeline is still in flux?

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You seem to have forgotten this part of my quote. A message in a bottle [crystal in this case] would serve the purpose without stranding us, because the branching would occur after we had returned to our own time.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

Even if we could create a branching timeline, that means we'd never be able to return to the main story's timeline just as G'raha could never return to his. And that timeline's Etheirys would be rendered a dead, barren wasteland by the Final Days without WoL bringing knowledge of Meteion back to the present.

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Granted, I've taken time away from the game in recent months, so if we've had more information that contradicts this then feel free to correct me, but how exactly do we know this? The last I heard, it was merely supposition. G'raha has never actually made the attempt to return to his time, so how do we - or they - know that's even the case that we couldn't return to our own?

And the cast are not entirely ignorant of the notion of an alternate timeline, since G'raha never faded away. As Iscah said, it might seem like too much of a risky gamble at this juncture, but not investigating the matter further seems to be an issue of just not caring enough to do so, lol.

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Also, there are PLENTY of people on these forums who want all the reflections gone in favor of the Unsundered World and openly talk about their disappointment in us not letting the Ascians finish their plan.

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I've yet to see any in this thread, nor even in any of the threads I've frequented in the entire time I've been here, including one popularly reviled as a haven for Ascian boot-lickers. It feels more like a fantasy that exists to conveniently undermine anyone with even the slightest inclination to question the Ancients' part in the story, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

When you actually find any evidence demonstrating the existence of these people who have supposedly claimed they want the mortals to die in favour of the Ancients, or literally anywhere their appearance or, uh, "perfection" (I mean, really?) has been shown to play into these arguments, let me know. In the mean time, I'll send you over some straw, you must be running low by now.

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...the person literally right above this post spent the past two pages trying to argue that it's okay for us to leave the modern world to die so that we can instead try to save the Ancients. (And frankly, this is already the most kindness I've ever seen readheadturk offer the sundered people.) Vyreus tried to attack Cilia's arguments for being anti-perfection. If you can't read that far, I'm not going to help you any further, you clearly aren't listening.

And of course the Ancients are all pretty people who people fall for. Have you been on the internet?

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

And ya know what? That is where telling them after the congruence in a way that it won't matter if it strands us comes in. Besides, if we leave behind a message in a bottle so to speak for them to find after we've gone back no harm, no foul. How can it strand us if we've already returned and the timeline is still in flux? Is there a chance our message in a bottle may not be found in time? sure, but it's better than being "hurp a derp, nothing we can do" with our fingers in our ears and our thumbs up our butts.

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A 'message in a bottle' doesn't work, specifically because of the timeline split you're trying to make happen. The message can't get to the Scions, if the timestream doesn't flow to them. And that's even putting aside that you can't make a message that'd get to them anyway; the Calamities grind everything to dust. The only message that ever got there was Erich's memory crystal, and that thing was garbled to hell and only arrived in a weird place the Scions weren't looking, so no, that's a terrible way to get an important message out.

So what the WoL would have to do in your (very poorly considered) scenario is basically to pick a point in the Elpis trip to stop, go back to the Scions, tell them what they've learned and then go back. Okay, I'll ride this and see where this goes. To do this, we need to figure out at what point does the WoL have actionable information, that the Scions can use?

After talking to Elidibus, learning that Elpis was a place run by Fandaniel? Firmly 'that's nice, dear'-level information, that doesn't help.
After learning Emet was there? Of course Emet knew Fandaniel, that's not news.
On meeting Hermes and Meteion? At this point, they're innocent bystanders; not useful.
On meeting Venat? That's almost an actionable lead, it proves Hydaelyn might know something, but not one of direct usefulness.
When Meteion starts getting the report back? At best you've found the likely culprit, but that doesn't help. Getting a name to curse as you die doesn't avoid dying.

Really, the only choice is after Ktisis, when the WoL returns anyway; it's in Ktisis that we learn that Meteion is definitely the culprit, as well as why, and that Venat tagged her and so probably knows her whereabouts. So essentially we're looking at a scenario where the WoL completes all of Elpis, bails out the Scions in Garlemald (at least, I hope; your idea better not be 'leave Krile a memo'), and then tell them 'hey, ask Hydaelyn, I'm gonna go help her back in the Before Times'.

Because you realize that's what they would do, right? The WoL can't save this independently, and wouldn't want to. Venat doesn't just know everything actionable here save for maybe 'what it's like to die to the End of Days',which I probably wouldn't call helpful; she's also better known in the Ancient world, better equipped to either figure out a solution or to find people to help her--which is, y'know, what she did. The WoL is a blind idiot in this context, and like in every context in which they're a blind idiot (i.e. every expansion, often more than once), they'll defer to someone who knows the place better.

And Venat didn't want our help; she wanted us to go back and help the Scions. Because she knew which end of the timeline we'd actually be useful in.

No, I obviously meant leave it for the Convocation [primarily Emet and Elidibus] to find after we're gone detailing what happened in Ktisis,I can't understand how you didn't get that.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

No, I obviously meant leave it for the Convocation [primarily Emet and Elidibus] to find after we're gone detailing what happened in Ktisis,I can't understand how you didn't get that.

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I took it to mean 'a message in the bottle to the Scions' because it was the only thing that made sense with your logic, even if it was still a flawed and bad idea. You used 'them', and it was ambiguous, so I jumped to what I thought was the rational conclusion. I'm sorry that I assumed you made a better argument than you did.

A message in a bottle to the Convocation is so much worse in such fundamental ways that I'm not sure you understand how anything works. Because the timeline split wouldn't be 'Nabriales looked at a crystal', that's not the thing that changed: it would be 'the WoL put a memory crystal in the mail'. By making and leaving the crystal, you would by nature be stranding yourself.

And not only that, you would be stranding yourself in an effort that makes the problem worse. There's a reason Venat doesn't tell them.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

...the person literally right above this post spent the past two pages trying to argue that it's okay for us to leave the modern world to die so that we can instead try to save the Ancients. (And frankly, this is already the most kindness I've ever seen readheadturk offer the sundered people.) Vyreus tried to attack Cilia's arguments for being anti-perfection. If you can't read that far, I'm not going to help you any further, you clearly aren't listening.

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...I see one guy pursuing the alternate timeline idea which wouldn't have any bearing on ours, and another making their own case why they feel the Ancients weren't given a fair shot. Nowhere has it been suggested that the mortals should die or that the Ancients were in any way perfect.

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And of course the Ancients are all pretty people who people fall for. Have you been on the internet?

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Oh! Right. This is all entirely your perception and nothing anyone has actually said. Good to know.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

I have to thank a friend for this, but there is yet another context clue for the protagonist that the timeline G'raha hailed from still exists: G'raha's memories of that timeline still exist. If the timeline had vanished, the aether that makes up G'raha's memories of that timeline would have poofed too. They didn't, as we'd know because we uh. . .inserted those memories into his younger body on the source?

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I don't see how that proves anything that his continued physical existence doesn't already prove (or fail to definitively prove).

In the hypothetical scenario from the characters' perspective that the other timeline was destroyed but G'raha wasn't taken with it, the continued existence of his incorporeal memory-aether is no more significant than the continued existence of his corporeal aether. If one can survive the obliteration of its source, why shouldn't the other?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I took it to mean 'a message in the bottle to the Scions' because it was the only thing that made sense with your logic, even if it was still a flawed and bad idea. You used 'them', and it was ambiguous, so I jumped to what I thought was the rational conclusion. I'm sorry that I assumed you made a better argument than you did.

A message in a bottle to the Convocation is so much worse in such fundamental ways that I'm not sure you understand how anything works. Because the timeline split wouldn't be 'Nabriales looked at a crystal', that's not the thing that changed: it would be 'the WoL put a memory crystal in the mail'. By making and leaving the crystal, you would by nature be stranding yourself.

And not only that, you would be stranding yourself in an effort that makes the problem worse. There's a reason Venat doesn't tell them.

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Not sure how I understood redheadturk but anyway I think he means to somehow chuck it into the Aetherial Sea while time magics are on it? Though I do think he suggested at one point to make one around the time we're finishing up with Pandeamonium. You know make a memory crystal and "accidentally" drop it as you say goodbye to Elidibus and Lahabrea while the WoL is still in the past. Have the WoL fringe ignorance if either of them notice we dropped something. We know the briefing about Pandeamonium happens some time before the Final Days so they would be able to be slightly warned ahead of time. Not that I like Lahabrea, but if he is able to kill his wife and keep it a secret from the rest of the Convocation I'm sure he'd be able to use some tact if he saw/heard what was on the crystal. Elidibus also probably would know how to be smart about what's on the memory crystal.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Granted, I've taken time away from the game in recent months, so if we've had more information that contradicts this then feel free to correct me, but how exactly do we know this? The last I heard, it was merely supposition. G'raha has never actually made the attempt to return to his time, so how do we - or they - know that's even the case that we couldn't return to our own?

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The direct answer to this would be that there is insufficient evidence to back the claim that you cannot travel between Timesteam A to timestream B and then back to timestream A in terms of FFXIV, especially since the writers have used multiple different ideas as to how time travel works in FFXIV.

G'raha allows for us to assume alternate timelines that have no bearing on the host timeline do exist in FFXIV via his continued existence along with Tales from the Shadow: An Unpromised Tomorrow, which is a continuation of G'raha's original timeline after he leaves. Due to this timeline existing after G'raha in our timeline averts the 8th Umbral Calamity, the conditions required to satisfy his existence are not negated upon averting the 8th Umbral Calamity. Furthermore, how you view time travel in Elpis is open-ended as per the writer's wishes in a lore Q&A:

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Q: I don’t really understand why the Warrior of Light messing around in Elpis didn’t create any alternate timelines. Can you explain what happened?

A: First of all, we’ve left that part up to interpretation.

-Letter from the Producer LIVE Part LXVIII (03/03/2022)

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This quote above was spoken by Yoshi-P in Japanese and was live translated by Kate, all of which was on behalf of the writing team. Due to this, there is no definitive way to define the mechanisms used for time travel in this case without the use of headcanons. Anything else you have heard about how time travel works besides what the game says on the subject or what the writers themselves have said so far is strictly in the realms of headcanons as no one except for the writing team is an absolute authority on this subject.

The mainstream theory to how alternate timelines work is based around the Many-Worlds Interpretation, which given what that theory allows, would allow for all possibilities to exist across an infinite number of universes which make up a grand multiverse. While having two, independent, timestreams does lend itself towards this particular theory being the backbone of how G'raha Tia works, using two universes to justify every possibility being completely true in fiction is not a leap I am willing to make. I am only presenting this as to where the inspiration of G'raha Tia's time traveling antics likely come from. It is important to note the writing team did use a lot of real world analogues in developing certain in-game things, such as the Ea who directly cite how the end of universe will occur due to heat death or when entropy reaches its maximum or how Dynamis constitutes 68.3% of all energy in FFXIV's universe, which is similar to how Dark Energy (the expansional energy of the Universe) makes up around 68~69% of the total energy in the universe.

As far as what the WoL would experience, everything would seem like it is all one timestream. The only proof of external timelines regarding what the WoL experiences is G'raha Tia and his continued existence since he is from another timestream. We have the benefit as outside observers to know more than the actual character themselves because we are not part of the system.

Note I am not expecting anyone to read the links to all the science stuff I linked, I can barely get people to read official source material from the game itself as it is when I cite it.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I've yet to see any in this thread, nor even in any of the threads I've frequented in the entire time I've been here, including one popularly reviled as a haven for Ascian boot-lickers. It feels more like a fantasy that exists to conveniently undermine anyone with even the slightest inclination to question the Ancients' part in the story, honestly.

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You probably won't see this because it is not necessary to do this in a universe where time travel as shown in FFXIV is allowed, which does include the likes of alternate timelines. Why someone would purposely bloody their own hands in a world of alternate timelines is beyond my comprehension.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

...as far as the WoL would know...

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This actually just opens up a sort of ludonarrative can of worms that's been ever present, but usually doesn't have attention called to itself until after MSQ segments have concluded (and then again later in seasonal/anniversary events).

That can of worms being that half the time, the story treats the WoL as the promotional WoL who is a unique character who we have no say in.

The other half of the time, the WoL is treated like the adventurer from FFXI, wherein we get a wink-wink, nudge nudge that the WoL is us, the player.

You see it during The Rising. You see it when having conversations with, "The Wandering Minstrel." You see it especially in the Iroha crossover Fate events, where you also get the notion that your WoL is somehow intertwined with your adventurer from FFXI.

These are Fourth Wall breaks, but they are indeed genuine. So all of the time, we the player, know that alternate timelines never die out as shown by the 8UC short story. And half the time our WoL is treated like they know what we know.

Barring cutscene incompetence and plot related blockheadery, it's been a real let down that the WoL did nothing to try and cause a timeline branch. Especially since the 8UC short story where hope is kept alive and Midgardsormr wakes up has existed since before Endwalker came out.

In a game series that started with the idea of changing fate within the context of a time loop, having a similar theme to challenging fate appear again and again, it really makes Endwalker stand out like a sore thumb. The one time fate can't be changed. The one time fate shouldn't be changed. The one time we must accept that we must not only be complicit in evil, but accept the person perpetrating said evil as not evil. Also the one time where we must actively kowtow to a villain's whims from the advice that we should fear what will happen.

So it's little wonder that some folks root for the old villains. There's nothing inspiring or heroic in this story anymore. Just kill or be killed and listen to your betters. Trust and believe them. Take whatever they tell you on faith. Do not desire even the possibility of a better outcome.

Remember all that you hold dear is being held hostage by causality.

Not the game I fell in love with. Not the series I fell in love with. A pale imitation wearing modded clown shoes.

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Originally Posted by ZavosEsperian

The direct answer to this would be that there is insufficient evidence to back the claim that you cannot travel between Timesteam A to timestream B and then back to timestream A in terms of FFXIV, especially since the writers have used multiple different ideas as to how time travel works in FFXIV.

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I have written previously (and do not have time for the full essay today) that I don't believe they have used multiple ideas – or at least, those multiple ideas can operate within a single consistent set of rules about how time travel works.

TL;DR the time traveller needs to know what happened in the past before they have a hope of changing it, because they need to change the outcome of events they know should happen. G'raha was prepared for this, we were not and could not be.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

That can of worms being that half the time, the story treats the WoL as the promotional WoL who is a unique character who we have no say in.

The other half of the time, the WoL is treated like the adventurer from FFXI, wherein we get a wink-wink, nudge nudge that the WoL is us, the player.

You see it during The Rising. You see it when having conversations with, "The Wandering Minstrel." You see it especially in the Iroha crossover Fate events, where you also get the notion that your WoL is somehow intertwined with your adventurer from FFXI.

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I think you're stitching together something that isn't there.

A two-minute fourth-wall-breaking conversation per year that is explicitly outside the character's reality and a one-shot crossover event based on FFXI are not proof that "half the time" the writers want to treat us how they treated the FFXI character (if that is accurate).

Even the Iroha event isn't a fourth wall break, it just tries to draw a line between the player's XIV character and their hypothetical XI character.

The closest might be the (IMO over-laboured) business of characters in Endwalker asking whether your journey was good and meaningful, but even then it happens primarily within context of the character, and any "they're really asking us-the-player" is a secondary implicit reading.

The character does not and should not spontaneously acquire knowledge simply because the player knows it, and this has never happened so far.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

In a game series that started with the idea of changing fate within the context of a time loop, having a similar theme to challenging fate appear again and again, it really makes Endwalker stand out like a sore thumb. The one time fate can't be changed. The one time fate shouldn't be changed.

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Are you talking about 1.0 or earlier FFs? Either way it's nothing that I'm aware of in this game as I know it.

In any case this isn't the first and only time we've had a stable time loop story in FFXIV. Alexander was all about the time loop having to play out consistently and ultimately that we needed to stop time from being altered by an enemy who wanted to overwrite events in their favour.

Elpis doesn't stand out to me at all. It was logical from the moment they talked about going there that this would have to be a case of not disturbing the timeline, just observing events that had already happened, and gaining knowledge of unrecorded history because we need to know that history to save the present.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

TL;DR the time traveller needs to know what happened in the past before they have a hope of changing it, because they need to change the outcome of events they know should happen. G'raha was prepared for this, we were not and could not be.

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Okay. Based on your statement and the rules I have set up; I shall propose an adequate solution assuming the point in which we time travel from is post 6.55:

Cid and Nero work together to build a time machine that is capable of complete bidirectional travel and giving us a requisite amount of aether to interact with the environment after examining records left behind inside of the Crystal Tower on the First that we retrieve for them (note, we destroyed The Tycoon and I do not believe we destroyed anything else related to possible records left over should they exist. If I am incorrect in this assertion, I would like a citation and I will change this to be more adequate). We use the time machine to go back to Elpis inside of an alternate timeline and proceed to stop everything as we now have full knowledge as to what is going to happen due to our previous experiences. As such, by your statement, we can alter history and, with that, are able to save the Ancients.

Nothing I have stated above conflicts directly with pre-established lore post 6.55 nor does it conflict with any statements from the writers as far as I am aware. As this is a headcanoned argument, much like what I am used to seeing, there are good chances I may have missed something, but if I did, I would like these things pointed out with complete citations. Failure to do so will mean I will disregard the argument on the same grounds most individuals here tend to when they argue from a point of headcanons.

Since you directly referenced my previous post, it is expected that you know what I have cited, particularly since you believe there is only one mode of time travel, which means all forms of time travel have the potential to yield alternate timelines per arguments made in the post I made prior.

If you do find something that does contradict my approach, feel free to cite it. I will look over the citation along with its context and adjust as needed, possibility and headcanons are flexible like this. If you take issues with my methods of coming up with this scenario, understand the question of this thread exists inside of the realm of possibility and that, per other previous posts, you cannot successfully argue either it is possible to save the Ancients or it is not possible to save the Ancients as true because there is not enough information to do so, which you would know if you read the post you referenced completely.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I think you're stitching together something that isn't there.

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I think you're willfully ignoring what is there, because it doesn't suit your mindset.

The visions had during the Rising Event are the same as any other visions the WoL has. Out of body experience, and then a snap back to immediate reality. They are as real as you want them to be, only that they have no direct bearing on the game's story.

And these were just the immediate examples that came to mind. There are more. The callbacks to the WoLs from 1.0 during ARR. The sidequests with The Wandering Draumaturge. The fact that the WoL has no way to know where to go for quests without us taking them there (this one also meshes rather poorly with the WoL having a poor memory with regards to who's who and all that, but knows exactly where to go, pretty much all of the time). Which leads to the tongue in cheek, often played off of, "Man, you sure do always seem to know exactly when to show up." or "Man, how did you know exactly where to look?" Basically, we give the WoL knowledge they don't otherwise have, all of the time.

I was referencing the very first Final Fantasy and prior entries, yes. The series very often has the concept of fighting with destiny to save the world/a people, and often features time travel, alternate worlds/dimensions, and prophecy.

The Alexander Raids were actually about Alexander manipulating the timeline to stop itself, because it wasn't truly omniscient, and couldn't actually perceive infinite timelines, as that would require infinite aether. It was all a setup for Alexander to contain itself within a static timeloop to prevent draining the world of aether. It has its issues, too. All time travel narratives do.

That's a weird perspective you've got on Elpis. It should be a big stand out, since not only do we go there once, but multiple times, even gaining a useable presence there that does influence the timeline because you see events we're responsible for. Chiefly, Pandemonium. Secondly, sidequests revolving around modern day monsters like the behemoth. Then the rituals, like Nymeia Lilies.

Also it wasn't knowledge of unrecorded history. It was knowledge of purposefully destroyed history.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

That's a weird perspective you've got on Elpis. It should be a big stand out, since not only do we go there once, but multiple times, even gaining a useable presence there that does influence the timeline because you see events we're responsible for. Chiefly, Pandemonium. Secondly, sidequests revolving around modern day monsters like the behemoth. Than the rituals, like Nymeia Lilies.

Also it wasn't knowledge of unrecorded history. It was knowledge of purposefully destroyed history.

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Never recorded or recorded and wiped out is irrelevant. The people of the present day have no record of what happened back then, and they need to find out.

And yes, we're there in Elpis blithely creating stable causal loops where we describe a present-day thing and thus accidentally become the base inspiration for the present day thing, but we're not actually altering anything in the present day by doing so. Things are just getting absorbed into "how it always happened in the unknown parts of history" and the result isn't any different to what you were previously aware of.

As for Pandæmonium, I disagree with the characters' in-story theorising about "what if whatever is happening there will make the Final Days even worse". It seems straightforward to me that we can be confident that whatever happens in the past is what has already happened and will lead to the present day, even if the details would be different. We might be making the overall situation better by interfering, but ignoring it would not cause the situation to spontaneously worsen – although whatever later emerges into the present day might be exponentially worse.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Never recorded or recorded and wiped out is irrelevant.

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It's entirely relevant, since all we'd need to avoid time travel is to, IDK, have Hydaelyn tell us the truth about stuff. But you know...

Since the setting does allow for timelines to change, then the idea of, "This is how it always was." falls completely apart. That is supposition no stronger than any other. Remember the Shadowbringers trailer? Let what was written be unwritten and all that jazz?

We're not writing how it's always been. We're rewritinghow it will be. The 8UC timeline is actually the prime timeline in FFXIV's universe, where there is no WoL involvement in Elpis at all, because in the 8UC timeline there was never a Crystal Exarch preventing the 8th Umbral Calamity. And the WoL there dies and can't go back in time, or even to The First, to cause recursive paradoxes.

Without WoL's intervention with Pandaemonium, Lahabrea will be unswayed by Themis's appeal and unmake the facility with all of its keywards and inhabitants. Athena will never arrive in the present day to remake it, because Claudien or w/e his name was will never find a memory stone from Aitiascope causing him to go to Azys Lla and get body jacked. It has only as much impact as we involve ourselves in it. Until the writers make it super important directly in some way.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

And these were just the immediate examples that came to mind. There are more. The callbacks to the WoLs from 1.0 during ARR. The sidequests with The Wandering Draumaturge. The fact that the WoL has no way to know where to go for quests without us taking them there (this one also meshes rather poorly with the WoL having a poor memory with regards to who's who and all that, but knows exactly where to go, pretty much all of the time). Which leads to the tongue in cheek, often played off of, "Man, you sure do always seem to know exactly when to show up." or "Man, how did you know exactly where to look?" Basically, we give the WoL knowledge they don't otherwise have, all of the time.

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The player directing the character to go places is not remotely a sign that that character doesn't know where to go; it's the most basic mechanic of any story-based videogame ever. If you don't have control of the character acting out the things that the character needs to do, you're not playing a game, you're watching a movie.

You're also making a lot of assumptions about the WoL's memory and such. There are dialogue prompts that allow you to have the character not remember who others are (as a subtle way for the player themself to be reminded) but they always or very often come paired with the other dialogue choice being a warm welcome to someone the character recognises and calls by name.

And even if the poor memory for faces and names is the canon version, that doesn't necessarily stop them from having a good memory for places, or if it really needs an explanation then you can put it on the Echo giving them a constant vague sense of premonition about where to go and what to pick up.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

where to go.

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I'd chock it up to that if the game itself didn't call attention to it. Since the game has done that, the game wants you to think about that answer.

It's true you get a warm response and a cold response, but sometimes you get several responses, and it's never two warm. It's always two unsure or cold responses.

It's canon that the WoL cannot control the Echo, so their Echo doesn't do that for them. It could but it doesn't. It doesn't, because they'd go near unconscious every quest. It also doesn't because there are quests where we have to follow seeking things like when Krile gets Matoya's Crystal Eye to find Thancred.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

It's entirely relevant, since all we'd need to avoid time travel is to, IDK, have Hydaelyn tell us the truth about stuff. But you know...

Since the setting does allow for timelines to change, then the idea of, "This is how it always was." falls completely apart. That is supposition no stronger than any other. Remember the Shadowbringers trailer? Let what was written be unwritten and all that jazz?

We're not writing how it's always been. We're rewritinghow it will be. The 8UC timeline is actually the prime timeline in FFXIV's universe, where there is no WoL involvement in Elpis at all, because in the 8UC timeline there was never a Crystal Exarch preventing the 8th Umbral Calamity. And the WoL there dies and can't go back in time, or even to The First, to cause recursive paradoxes.

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The nature of the timeline (at least as I work it out) has only a single version of events up to the extraordinary events of Shadowbringers causing it to split in two from that point onwards.

Because it is a single timeline at the time of Elpis, when we travel back from our branch of the later timeline, we end up in the shared past of both branches, and the events we experience happen and carry on into both futures. There is no timeline where the WoL from timeline branch B did not visit Elpis.

Meanwhile, Hydaelyn can't tell us anything that we didn't know when we came to Elpis, or it will alter the situation and break the time loop. As soon as we tell her we've been there, she immediately gives us all the additional information she can provide to us.

And no, the idea of stable time loops does not have to fall apart just because it is possible to change things. As I see it, a time-traveller's actions do not automatically change the timeline, or events such as Alexander's time loops would not be possible. Most tellingly, the "save your past self" moment would not be possible if a traveller's actions always split the timeline, and would not be necessary if there was some "preceding version" of events where somebody else saved us.

Making sense of the two types of time travel in a single set of rules requires (IMO) a universe that "prefers" a single timeline and stable time loops when time travel occurs, but armed with the right fore-knowledge of events at the destination, it is possible to disrupt things so the original outcome is not possible – for example, ensuring that the First was not primed for Rejoining on the known date of the Eighth Calamity. The outcome is irreconcilable with the time traveller's original future, and a new timeline has to be created for this new and incompatible version of events.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Not sure how I understood redheadturk but anyway I think he means to somehow chuck it into the Aetherial Sea while time magics are on it? Though I do think he suggested at one point to make one around the time we're finishing up with Pandeamonium. You know make a memory crystal and "accidentally" drop it as you say goodbye to Elidibus and Lahabrea while the WoL is still in the past. Have the WoL fringe ignorance if either of them notice we dropped something. We know the briefing about Pandeamonium happens some time before the Final Days so they would be able to be slightly warned ahead of time. Not that I like Lahabrea, but if he is able to kill his wife and keep it a secret from the rest of the Convocation I'm sure he'd be able to use some tact if he saw/heard what was on the crystal. Elidibus also probably would know how to be smart about what's on the memory crystal.

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That's still dumb, still gonna strand them, it's just leaving Wuk Lamat in the lurch rather than an entire planet. Also possibly Zero, Vrtra, Azdaja, the entire Thirteenth and probably the Twelve, depending on how you sequence your 6.x. And I'm not even gonna touch 'just use time magic to do the thing from the present', because I'm not even sure that's physically possible for anyone in the game world.

FFXIV's time travel mechanics just don't allow for this approach to work while still going back to the present day to participate in the actual game. And that's even putting aside that I don't actually expect it to work; I don't think you can butterfly effect your way to a good end for the Ancients if you're starting after the Meteia have launched, even if I do think Lahabrea might be the best Convocation member to tell. Venat is neither evil, or stupid; in fact, she's better-equipped than any of us to solve that problem, and still couldn't.

I feel like, if you're introducing the actual stakes of FFXIV time travel to this hypothetical (as opposed to a vague detached god-view of it, which I took the original point of the thread to be), you'd better have a perfect way to stop it. And it has become abundantly clear that nobody does.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

That's still dumb, still gonna strand them, it's just leaving Wuk Lamat in the lurch rather than an entire planet. Also possibly Zero, Vrtra, Azdaja, the entire Thirteenth and probably the Twelve, depending on how you sequence your 6.x. And I'm not even gonna touch 'just use time magic to do the thing from the present', because I'm not even sure that's physically possible for anyone in the game world.

FFXIV's time travel mechanics just don't allow for this approach to work while still going back to the present day to participate in the actual game. And that's even putting aside that I don't actually expect it to work; I don't think you can butterfly effect your way to a good end for the Ancients if you're starting after the Meteia have launched, even if I do think Lahabrea might be the best Convocation member to tell. Venat is neither evil, or stupid; in fact, she's better-equipped than any of us to solve that problem, and still couldn't.

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I am surprised you are this negative towards any ideas like this and to justify it you bring up the butterfly effect of all things. The butterfly effect implies determinism which is entirely incongruent with the Final Fantasy franchise as a whole at the narrative level, where defying fate (opposite of what determinism stands for as determinism states things are bound to happen regardless of what happens, which isn't very Final Fantasy) tends to be an ever-present theme in most, if not all, Final Fantasy titles. It begs this question: Why are you playing a game/game series where determinism is one of the least supported concepts in its themes, and is usually torn to shreds by the end of the game?

Understand I do not mean this in any negative capacity. It is just an observation that I want an answer to. Whether you indulge me is up to you, we haven't exactly been the most cordial with each other recently.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The nature of the timeline

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The events of Shadowbringers resulted in an entirely new timeline, not a mere branch. There is no conjunction formed for the 8UC with Elpis, and so Elpis is not tied to that timeline in the same way as it is in ours.

The reason it's not a mere branch is because the time at which the conjunction occurs is hundreds of years before the timeline split happens. The timeline split happens because the 8UC timeline sent the Crystal Tower backwards through both time and space, causing an entirely new timeline to form. It doesn't share the same past, again, because the conjunction cannot exist for the 8UC, as the 8UC is entirely unlinked from our timeline. The conjunction only happens for our timeline, since it happens after the point in the 8UC where the WoL would be dead.

This means that living WoL from Timeline B using Timeline A's time machine goes back in time only in Timeline B.

To wit, we can't go back to an earlier point in the 8UC. If we could, the 8UC timeline would not exist at all, it would have been rewritten. Do you see why it's not a branch?

It's like in Dragonball Z when Trunks goes back in time. He, using Bulma's time machine, created another entire timeline, and the time machines only go there. They don't go into any other past.

Hydaelyn could have always told us what she knew. That is not dependent on time travel. It is dependent on her willingness to tell the truth. Something she's not very keen on.

The time travel events within Alexander are different because they happened contained inside of Alexander itself, which is already a pocket dimension inside of a primal. The entire situation with that relies on us fighting Alexander Prime for the conjunction there to cause a loop. Prior to us entering the time gate that takes us into Alexander Prime's dimension, the Illuminati tried to use freeze time to kill us, freeze time ended sooner than expected, and we dodged out of the way. The conjunction has it that it was Alexander trying to kill us because he sends robots back in time to prolong how long freeze time lasts, so you have misunderstood the scenario. The preceding event is that freeze time was started by the Illuminati, and it does not last long enough to kill us without the robots being sent back in time from Alexander Prime. Basically, Alexander tried to defeat us by changing the past, and we prevent him from changing the past. It's actually not a loop.

There is no actual set of rules. It's writer fiat. And it has really made a mess of the setting.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

The events of Shadowbringers resulted in an entirely new timeline, not a mere branch. There is no conjunction formed for the 8UC with Elpis, and so Elpis is not tied to that timeline in the same way as it is in ours.

The reason it's not a mere branch is because the time at which the conjunction occurs is hundreds of years before the timeline split happens. The timeline split happens because the 8UC timeline sent the Crystal Tower backwards through both time and space, causing an entirely new timeline to form.

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There is absolutely nothing to establish that as fact. There is no proof that the Crystal Tower's arrival split the timeline, because we have no prior knowledge of its state to say whether there was ever a version of events where the tower did not appear there.

Neither is there any proof that the split is an entirely separate timeline and not just a split.

And without any direct proof for or against, I would take "the interpretation that allows the game's story to make sense" as the one that is likely to be in place rather than the one that renders parts of it impossible or inconsistent.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

There is absolutely nothing to establish that as fact.

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There is, and it's the 8UC short story they put up that established that an alternate timeline still exists where their own time machine had no effect on their own timeline (meaning their own time machine cannot interact with their own timeline). But I get it. It's a deeply convoluted mess, and you've spent a lot of time thinking about and seeing it a certain way.

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Originally Posted by ZavosEsperian

I am surprised you are this negative towards any ideas like this and to justify it you bring up the butterfly effect of all things. The butterfly effect implies determinism which is entirely incongruent with the Final Fantasy franchise as a whole at the narrative level, where defying fate (opposite of what determinism stands for as determinism states things are bound to happen regardless of what happens, which isn't very Final Fantasy) tends to be an ever-present theme in most, if not all, Final Fantasy titles. It begs this question: Why are you playing a game/game series where determinism is one of the least supported concepts in its themes, and is usually torn to shreds by the end of the game?

Understand I do not mean this in any negative capacity. It is just an observation that I want an answer to. Whether you indulge me is up to you, we haven't exactly been the most cordial with each other recently.

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Would you prefer I say 'domino effect'? Because the point I was making was that in the context of stopping the Ancients from falling apart, you can't do a direct problem-solve if you're starting after the Metia have left; there is no means to do so. This is even true for Venat, who had a wealth of social resources available to her and knowledge of the society she's gonna use them in. It's even more true for the WoL, who in this context is a weak idiot with no friends. (That last part's a big problem, because the WoL's ostensible greatest strength is having a lot of those.) This is even a thing you yourself agree on, because your own plan still starts before that point.

If you want to save the Ancients, but only start with the WoL themselves after Ktisis (or Pandaemonium, which doesn't meaningfully change anything here), either physically present or not, you'd better have an insanely elaborate plan that can be weaved out of literally nothing, because that's what you've got. In my eyes, the butterfly effect is its best hope, the notion that the WoL can beat their proverbial wings and cause exactly the one storm you need. And frankly, that sounds like a terrible plan.

I'm negative towards ideas that are bad. And readheadturk's idea was so bad, and so poorly-articulated, that we wound up with three different interpretations of it that are all fundamentally terrible.

If you want me to be positive towards an idea, make it a good idea. It's quite simple.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

There is, and it's the 8UC short story they put up that established that an alternate timeline still exists where their own time machine had no effect on their own timeline (meaning their own time machine cannot interact with their own timeline). But I get it. It's a deeply convoluted mess, and you've spent a lot of time thinking about and seeing it a certain way.

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The short story only establishes that the other future still exists, not that it has split apart all the way back to the dawn of time. It only needs to split as far back as whatever key event defined the beginning of a change that ensured the Calamity could not occur.

We have no proof that the earliest effects of the time travel did or did not take place in the history of the other timeline. They don't know the state of the First, they only work out later that it was the rejoined shard and that they need to go there, so the tower could have appeared in the history of their timeline and the Exarch's plan simply failed, resulting in a stable time loop from their perspective – not that they would know about it, as all sign of the attempt would be wiped out along with the First itself.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I'm negative towards ideas that are bad. And readheadturk's idea was so bad, and so poorly-articulated, that we wound up with three different interpretations of it that are all fundamentally terrible.

If you want me to be positive towards an idea, make it a good idea. It's quite simple.

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Except they are not. The point is that given the information early enough [yes, even post Meteion dispatching] as long as it is before the Final Days themselves begin, they can Create Zodiark using ambient aether instead of actual sacrifices, giving themselves thousands of years to figure out how to deal with the angry twitter bird.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

the Exarch's plan simply failed, resulting in a stable time loop from their perspective – not that they would know about it, as all sign of the attempt would be wiped out along with the First itself.

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No. If their plan could affect their own timeline, then the time where they made their time machine would cease to be, ergo, it had to go to a different timeline. If they had not written the short story, this would still be up in the air.

The proof that it's a different timeline all the way back to the beginning of time is literally what I just said. If the 8UC time machine could go back in time within the 8UC's timeline, that future would not exist, and the Crystal Tower would have faded from the face of The First once the 8th Umbral Calamity was made impossible.

I'll try to make it clearer.

If they could go back in time in the 8UC's timeline, then they could go back even further than just the 8UC's inciting event, and cause different outcomes. They could go back to before Black Rose was invented and stop its invention. There are many other possibilities, but I don't care to think of them at the moment, but do you understand?

The 8UC's Crystal Tower did not land in their past, because it could not. The short story made this the sort of time travel we are dealing with.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

No. If their plan could affect their own timeline, then the time where they made their time machine would cease to be, ergo, it had to go to a different timeline. If they had not written the short story, this would still be up in the air.

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None of that makes sense, and the short story changes nothing except confirming whether we are in a "timeline is able to branch to support an old and new version of events" story or a "time traveller is exempt from the effects of a self-inflicted grandfather paradox" story, in favour of the former.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

Except they are not. The point is that given the information early enough [yes, even post Meteion dispatching] as long as it is before the Final Days themselves begin, they can Create Zodiark using ambient aether instead of actual sacrifices, giving themselves thousands of years to figure out how to deal with the angry twitter bird.

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...what? You've never put forward this 'make Zodiark using ambient aether' idea, nor has anybody else. You're gonna need to explain it, and how it is not going to somehow kill the planet by draining it of all its everything. And presumably, why the leading minds of Etheirys never came up with it if it's a perfect, no-downsides solution.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

...what? You've never put forward this 'make Zodiark using ambient aether' idea, nor has anybody else. You're gonna need to explain it, and how it is not going to somehow kill the planet by draining it of all its everything. And presumably, why the leading minds of Etheirys never came up with it if it's a perfect, no-downsides solution.

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So like you know how a tank of water works? Like you our water into it and it gradually fills up right?

Zodiark was a very big bottle of Water that the Ancients needed to fill very quickly. Ergo sacrifices instant water instant filled tank.

In theory you could fill up that tank at a slower pace and still end up with the same result. I know you have a habit of arguing in bad faith but that's a pretty straight forward idea.

Where I draw criticism in the "Message is a Bottle" route is that there isnt a scenario where someone finds that message whilst the WoL isnt it Elpis. Like even as of the current patch the WoL can still actively travel back and forth to Elpis however any effect on the future only happens when the WoL is present (The Athena Saga has many examples of this).

Maybe some who isn't the person I'm quoting can answer this but do we know if time actively moves forward from when the WoL leaves Elpis and back? Because for example Asphodelus didn't appear in the Sundered World until the WoL defeated Hephaistos even though time logic says it should've been there. What Im saying here is basically using the WoL in any fashion to save the Ancients cant work unless the WoL wants to trap themself like Graha.

Also Hi new here but Ive lurked for 2 years going on Hello everyone who isnt the person Im quoting.

I've been lurking and reading the thread and would like to point out some things that nobody seems to have mentioned yet.

There is one part in the sequence of events that nobody has really talked about: The time after Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus and Hermes returned to Amaurot but before Hermes was appointed as Fandaniel. If Venat revealed the truth at that time, there would be more variables at play.

1) The previous Fandaniel would still be alive as he only returned to the star after Hermes was appointed, we can assume that he's at least as capable as Hermes.
2) There's still some time before The Final Days is meant to happen, giving them some time to plan countermeasures after going through Hermes' research about Meteion. We have to remember that it's canon that Hermes was the first one to notice the thinning of aether, nothing says that he's the only one capable of noticing.
3) If a countermeasure is implemented that doesn't involve the mass sacrifice of ancient lives, Azem would still be fully on board with the convocation.

These 3 variables from that point in time might cause quite a large difference in outcome.

Side note: I find it weird that people are in a speculation thread trying to shut down other people's speculation because their own headcanon says the characters wouldn't be up to the task. Why not just let people have their fun?

Looking at the OP, it would appear that the primary topic of the thread is 'was it possible' for Amaurot to have been saved.

There are a few considerations with this. First, the thread topic is addressing the narrative sequence of events in the story we know, as opposed to theoretical future developments. That's what makes this a 'lore' discussion, rather than a 'headcanon' discussion.

It is possible, at the writers' discretion, to accomplish anything within the game universe. They set the rules, after all. The writers could, in theory, bring Haurchefant and Moenbryda back to life if they wanted to.

I can write up a solution for you right now, in fact. We petition Cid/Nidhana/Y'shtola/Gerolt for their aid in constructing a MacGuffin to save Amaurot. We go to their factory/lab/library/pub for further inspiration. They send us to Garlemald/Thavnair/Allag/Rowena to collect the necessary materials. A few patches later they provide us with the McGuffin. We activate the MacGuffin and Amaurot arrives in the present time with its original inhabitants, unharmed and in possession of their original powers. Everyone is happy, and we still haven't answered the original question.

Time travel hijinks and Tetsuya Nomura plotlines aside, I think the crux of the issue in this thread is whether Amaurot's destruction was a preventable event, taking into account the story that we were told. The writing makes it fairly clear that it unfortunately wasn't, which isn't all that surprising because it's incompatible with the primary game setting.