7.0 Healer Wishlist

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

lots of points to cover

1st it would be both or depending on the situation would change its primary function, but also gap closers are decent dps ogcd, but the scale of the hitbox i dont think is contributory to gap closers at least i havent seen any evidence that would prove otherwise, furthermore why should someone be forced to play a class they may not like? having everyone play SGE would be just a conforming to uniformity as homogenizing classes, what does the armory system have to do with anything, like do you mean gear ilvl, please tell me your not arguing from a glamour POV,.....seriously? and lastly i think some people are being a bit reductionist or are hyperbolic when it comes to the usage of the term homogeneous, sure the classes have similarities (which isnt the fault of SOME similar skills or the request thereof but is actually the fault of players wanting everything to be easy boss mechs, buff/debuff management, role responsibility ect )

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If it has damage it gets spammed for damage, there is no ifs what’s or buts about it that’s just how 14 works

And I’m saying the armoury system is there to facilitate class difference, if you are so desperate to play a healer with a gap closer then play SGE, don’t ask for gap closers to be given to SCH and WHM……..because, class homogenisation is borne from this type of request, think WAR damage despite its self healing, think how many people still ask for Zoe to force e diagnosis to crit so Pepsis can spread it (you know SCH’s iconic niche to a literal T), how many people want expedient copied to the other healers, how WAR basically took DRK’s gap closers because DRK was the gap closer tank, how the other tanks took the “short powerful CD” niche from TBN

The list goes on and on, if you want a skill that’s a particular niche of a class then play that class or go without the niche, at this point we could basically add expedient and critlo to SGE and just delete SCH they are so damn similar and people still want them to share more skills

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

furthermore why should someone be forced to play a class they may not like? having everyone play SGE would be just a conforming to uniformity as homogenizing classes

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This right here is exactly why the jobs will continue to be further homogenized and made into the same thing. "But I like that thing this other job has, but I don't want to play that! So give it to the job I do like instead of letting that job play differently!" The hilarious part is that this type of exact thing happened with the tanks too, can't let DRK have Plunge; PLD and WAR need gapclosers too!

You know, Yoshi-P is right, the reason job design is terrible is absolutely the community's fault and this garbage job design is what this community deserves. I'm excited for how much worse DT will make it.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The list goes on and on, if you want a skill that’s a particular niche of a class then play that class or go without the niche, at this point we could basically add expedient and critlo to SGE and just delete SCH they are so damn similar and people still want them to share more skills

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After the troubles SGE was having in DSR in 6.1 vs SCH and SCH's mitigative superiority to SGE that it still has even now, I'm all but certain they are going to essentially give SGE Deployment Tactics and make Zoe a forced crit like Recitation too. In return they can give SCH a Pneuma clone and the epic gapcloser!!

Those are probably the same mindset and reasons why SGE was born: instead of letting people play SCH while ignoring Energy Drain which would achieve what EW SGE does, they prefer to waste an entire design space to create a weaker shade of SCH and sell it as a 'new job'.

Sounds familiar.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

snipp

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indeed you are correct if theres a deeps button some might be inclined to press it as simply that however to completely dismisses is usage as a movement skill as well as the opportunities where such a skill would/will be beneficial is as big of a fallacy are your generalization of "how 14 works" ,you make contradictory points if sch or whm were to be given a dps gap closer then that would not make them homogeneous to each other as whm & sch are somewhat different healers as well as separate them by a fractional difference from SGE as their gap closer would have a potential dps and icarus does not, again youre claim about homogenization being the result of some similar skills is at best anecdotal and is not based on evidence or anything from what yoshi-p and the devs have answered to in regards to this issue, as for your examples lets run down the list

War dmg are you talking about war being the 2nd or lowest dps tank? this comes from a raiding perspective where its heals arent as big of a factor when compared to dungeons hell i dont even play War & i know this, giving it a slight dps boost isnt gonna make it or anything homogeneous considering each tank still has/would have plenty of differing characteristics, following the tank topic im glad you brought DRK into this cuz it further illustrates the contrast between classes that share a similar skill but overall are different and this parallel services to the topic, also TBN isnt similar to how other tanks function in any way youre making shit up at this point

now regarding your healer theories but im sorry broad generalizations arent enough to make a convincing argument, and further illustrates the hysteria surrounding the usage of homogeneous, im sure youre smart enough to know but ill be terse in the differences between SGE & SCH

Sch: requires a fairy for almost half its toolkit, gives auto heal to any who suffer dmg, has a gauge that requires dps or a heal, has more party buffs/debuffs
Sge: gives heal based on dps, more dps buttons, gauge auto fills, gauge also requires party member to take damage,........i can go on but you know what heres a link to the guide because i think you need a refresher on how not only your main works but how the healers and other classes are quite different https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/battle/

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

This right here is exactly why the jobs will continue to be further homogenized and made into the same thing. "But I like that thing this other job has, but I don't want to play that! So give it to the job I do like instead of letting that job play differently!" The hilarious part is that this type of exact thing happened with the tanks too, can't let DRK have Plunge; PLD and WAR need gapclosers too!

You know, Yoshi-P is right, the reason job design is terrible is absolutely the community's fault and this garbage job design is what this community deserves. I'm excited for how much worse DT will make it.



After the troubles SGE was having in DSR in 6.1 vs SCH and SCH's mitigative superiority to SGE that it still has even now, I'm all but certain they are going to essentially give SGE Deployment Tactics and make Zoe a forced crit like Recitation too. In return they can give SCH a Pneuma clone and the epic gapcloser!!

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im inclined to think you and Super/Amdreas are the same person (maybe alts?) with these easy examples to tear apart no originality much like your claim of homogenization, PLD, WAR & DRK are still different regardless of one or some similar skills also yoshi-p is getting lazy AF

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

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I’m actually sitting here trying to figure out if you thinking kardia and embrace constituting class difference is you arguing in bad faith or because you don’t actually know any better, the only remotely meaningful difference between SGE and SCH is different prioritisation of heals because of energy drain

Same as the tank difference, do you honestly believe that bloodwhetting/holy Shelton/heart of corrundum weren’t made overpowered precisely because TBN dominated in ShB compared to the old forms

So yes I’m actually genuinely curious if you consider flavour fluff meaningful differences or if you aren’t arguing in good faith

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

im inclined to think you and Super/Amdreas are the same person (maybe alts?) with these easy examples to tear apart no originality much like your claim of homogenization, PLD, WAR & DRK are still different regardless of one or some similar skills also yoshi-p is getting lazy AF

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Hey nizzy apparently you are my alt buddy now, that’s cute

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m actually sitting here trying to figure out if you thinking kardia and embrace constituting class difference is you arguing in bad faith or because you don’t actually know any better, the only remotely meaningful difference between SGE and SCH is different prioritisation of heals because of energy drain
Same as the tank difference, do you honestly believe that bloodwhetting/holy Shelton/heart of corrundum weren’t made overpowered precisely because TBN dominated in ShB compared to the old forms
So yes I’m actually genuinely curious if you consider flavour fluff meaningful differences or if you aren’t arguing in good faith

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can sch do anything without the fairy? the answer to that riddle is no, no it can not, this isnt flavor fluff its a paramount feature to its design im honestly surprised this concept as well as others is lost on you, if you want to focus all your time and argument resting on one skill then i have to say its a weak argument and is more representative of who is arguing in bad faith

now onto the tanks what in your mind makes you think any of those skills are devoid of any distinction? like seriously talk about bad faith, HC doesnt require a gauge, and neither give a Dmg skill based on dmg taken unlike TBN these alone are enough to dismiss this example of them being similar as well illustrates that you dont know what youre talking about unless youre gonna harp on the "but the CD & them being overpowered"......ok does that change their function? again no it does not

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m actually sitting here trying to figure out if you thinking kardia and embrace constituting class difference is you arguing in bad faith or because you don’t actually know any better, the only remotely meaningful difference between SGE and SCH is different prioritisation of heals because of energy drain

Same as the tank difference, do you honestly believe that bloodwhetting/holy Shelton/heart of corrundum weren’t made overpowered precisely because TBN dominated in ShB compared to the old forms

So yes I’m actually genuinely curious if you consider flavour fluff meaningful differences or if you aren’t arguing in good faith



Hey nizzy apparently you are my alt buddy now, that’s cute

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also you might wanna look up the definition of terse as i intentionally gave a summary of these "flavor fluff" examples because thats the bare minimum i need to go, if yopu wanna go into detail by all means bring up everything you can think of between SGE & SCH and we can go tit for tat

Regardless of how "homogeneous" or not you think the healers are currently, taking an ability one of them has and giving it to the others is a definite step towards making them more homogenous.

(Also, I've always figured that SGE has Icarus because it's the only healer whose AoE heals are always centered on itself [versus Cure III, Asylum, Earthly Star, Sacred Soil, fairy].)

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

can sch do anything without the fairy? the answer to that riddle is no, no it can not, this isnt flavor fluff its a paramount feature to its design im honestly surprised this concept as well as others is lost on you, if you want to focus all your time and argument resting on one skill then i have to say its a weak argument and is more representative of who is arguing in bad faith

now onto the tanks what in your mind makes you think any of those skills are devoid of any distinction? like seriously talk about bad faith, HC doesnt require a gauge, and neither give a Dmg skill based on dmg taken unlike TBN these alone are enough to dismiss this example of them being similar as well illustrates that you dont know what youre talking about unless youre gonna harp on the "but the CD & them being overpowered"......ok does that change their function? again no it does not

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And why does the fairy being out or not change literally anything, you are never going to not have the fairy out unless you are dissipating, you can’t even argue SCH has the niche of being a totem healer anymore since all of SGE’s heals hit the next instance over anyway, it’s almost impossible to miss anyone with physis

The skills are devoid of distinction because they do literally the same thing, mitigate a percentage amount of damage then provide a form of healing, what’s the point of flavour differences when they do the same thing in practice

I could also circle this back to healers, who cares that eos can totem heal embrace when physis does exactly the same thing with a different duration for flavour differences

If the buttons are pressed at the same time to achieve the same thing using the same method then they are functionally the same button, soil being a ground AOE vs the buff on kerechole is another example, hell besides the whole energy drain the addersgall system being “hey it’s not 60 seconds for 3 stacks it’s 1 stack every 20 seconds” is just pointless fluff

If you wanna argue these constitute meaningful class differences then go ahead, but they don’t come remotely close for me

I'm personally more curious why would one want gap closers on a SCH.

On WHM I can probably get by because Seraph Strike exists in PvP. Even my own version of WHM revamp has it.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Regardless of how "homogeneous" or not you think the healers are currently, taking an ability one of them has and giving it to the others is a definite step towards making them more homogenous.

(Also, I've always figured that SGE has Icarus because it's the only healer whose AoE heals are always centered on itself [versus Cure III, Asylum, Earthly Star, Sacred Soil, fairy].)

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Which they comically render moot by doubling the radius of their key abilities like Kerachole, Physis II, & Holos lol.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Regardless of how "homogeneous" or not you think the healers are currently, taking an ability one of them has and giving it to the others is a definite step towards making them more homogenous.

(Also, I've always figured that SGE has Icarus because it's the only healer whose AoE heals are always centered on itself [versus Cure III, Asylum, Earthly Star, Sacred Soil, fairy].)

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i mean the counter argument is simply broaden/addition other skills as it is with each expansion, sure some classes have similar skills but the reverse is also true even if one or even half ( <--- this is the extreme case) have a similar toolkit to each other this wouldnt dismiss a job's originality as it would still have half or more to go on, nor difference in game-play to be honest the fault lies within the content itself not the classes as for the icarus point im not sure, but if that is indeed the case then all the more reason as to why the classes would be different were they to have a similar skill

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And why does the fairy being out or not change literally anything, you are never going to not have the fairy out unless you are dissipating, you can’t even argue SCH has the niche of being a totem healer anymore since all of SGE’s heals hit the next instance over anyway, it’s almost impossible to miss anyone with physis

The skills are devoid of distinction because they do literally the same thing, mitigate a percentage amount of damage then provide a form of healing, what’s the point of flavour differences when they do the same thing in practice

I could also circle this back to healers, who cares that eos can totem heal embrace when physis does exactly the same thing with a different duration for flavour differences

If the buttons are pressed at the same time to achieve the same thing using the same method then they are functionally the same button, soil being a ground AOE vs the buff on kerechole is another example, hell besides the whole energy drain the addersgall system being “hey it’s not 60 seconds for 3 stacks it’s 1 stack every 20 seconds” is just pointless fluff

If you wanna argue these constitute meaningful class differences then go ahead, but they don’t come remotely close for me

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the fairy literally changes everything like come on man im not even a sch main(outside of pvp..well its more of a 2nd but still) but even i can understand this much also youre dismissing sch buffs as well as being glib with the potency of the skills between sch & sge as well as undermining the value of differing party comps that work better with a sch than a sge. obviously this is a difference of opinion you see everything as similar i understand that and i can even agree to an extent but it simply that theres a limit to how similar the jobs are and whether they share a skill or two doesn't dismiss how different they are, if you wanna call it fluff by all means thats your opinion

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I'm personally more curious why would one want gap closers on a SCH.

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it was already answered but ill reiterate there are times (regarding mechs or player poz) where it would be beneficial for a player who is playing sch to get from point A to point B faster than expedient or sprint would allow , if a dps were added then perhaps all the better

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

it was already answered but ill reiterate there are times (regarding mechs or player poz) where it would be beneficial for a player who is playing sch to get from point A to point B faster than expedient or sprint would allow , if a dps were added then perhaps all the better

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But you see, to slidecast, to consider your positioning relative to upcoming mechanic, and how it affects the use of your abilities (i.e. using Spreadlo/Seraph when you cannot easily reach everybody with Indomitability/Succor without endangering yourself & your party) are also part of a healer's gameplay---we are spellcasters by default, we are NOT supposed to be incredibly mobile.

Giving us abilities based upon the premise of "there are times X might happen" is also one of the reason why we have bloated healing kits that we barely use until we get a clownfest besides conforming the homogeneity. Similarly, we certainly don't need even more mobility tools when EW had dropped the ball by Trashologificating all healers a.k.a. giving everybody a 1.5s nuke cast time just because some people fail to grasp the concept of slidecasting/had to drop casting so often for not having the foresight. Please don't make us even less of a spellcaster (looking at you SMN lmfao). If people can't deal with the immobility of a healer for being a spellcaster then perhaps healer isn't just for them... or pick SGE: it's there for them to hand out E.Diag/Prog while moving + Icarus.

Remember how EW 1.5s cast time depreciates the value of WHM's Lily Gauge, SCH's Ruin II, and so on. We don't need more of those.

EDIT: Suddenly reminded that we're in a -wishlist- thread so I will not be writing more beyond this point. Sorry for the derail. o7

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Hey nizzy apparently you are my alt buddy now, that’s cute

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The 'everyone who disagrees with me must be alts of each other' thing is so overdone on the forums at this point.

That said, as far as SCH and SGE being very similar, I've gone as SGE into savage fights and ultimates which I have cleared on SCH and just used the rough SGE equivalents on every mechanic and we got through everything just fine. That means there's not much functional difference between the kits of SGE and SCH, and when it comes to gameplay distinctions, difference of function is rather important.

The fairy isn't the only determining identity of SCH. For me, it is just part of what makes the SCH what it is. What snow is trying to say is that there is no diff between SGE and SCH. They do the exact same thing, only differing on how they do it. To be honest, everything was actually fine when it were just WHM, SCH and AST. They could have stuck with that and just made SGE a diff type of healer. But oh well... I hope a 5th Healer, yes only 1, is implemented in a future expansion so that the "balance" between the number of shield vs pure healers are shook.

Even on aesthetic level I was kind of baffled by how close to Scholar Sage is. Even the name is almost synonymous. Kind of makes sense the mechanics of it are a giant copy paste too, I guess.

It's the same damn job except pew-pew lasers instead of a fairy.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Remember how EW 1.5s cast time depreciates the value of WHM's Lily Gauge, SCH's Ruin II, and so on.

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Here's my wish this morning: Give healers back their longer cast times. :p

Cast for 1.5s, move for 1s, cast for 1.5s, move for 1s..., it feels so silly and absurd.

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Originally Posted by rawker

The fairy isn't the only determining identity of SCH. For me, it is just part of what makes the SCH what it is. What snow is trying to say is that there is no diff between SGE and SCH. They do the exact same thing, only differing on how they do it. To be honest, everything was actually fine when it were just WHM, SCH and AST. They could have stuck with that and just made SGE a diff type of healer. But oh well... I hope a 5th Healer, yes only 1, is implemented in a future expansion so that the "balance" between the number of shield vs pure healers are shook.

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I don't see how introducing a 5th healer would balance the shield vs pure healers, and currently given the issues in some case with pure and shield healers, AND given what that carved out for the change to at least one job (AST)- I would rather that they gave up on that concept altogether, and gave every healer some mix of regen and shield healer, in varying degrees.

In that case- introducing a 5th healer- which I'm not eager for, until the current ones have some reworks- wouldn't be problematic.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I don't see how introducing a 5th healer would balance the shield vs pure healers, and currently given the issues in some case with pure and shield healers, AND given what that carved out for the change to at least one job (AST)- I would rather that they gave up on that concept altogether, and gave every healer some mix of regen and shield healer, in varying degrees.

In that case- introducing a 5th healer- which I'm not eager for, until the current ones have some reworks- wouldn't be problematic.

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The main reason AST was changed from what it were to what we have at the moment is for that reason alone. There need to have a balance of 2 pure healers and 2 shield healers. AST used to fill both plus cards.

While we're at it, make the 5th healer melee. it has a 1-2-3 combo similar to PLD where one of its combo weaponskill restores MP.. A ranged spell like Holy Spirit and AoE like Holy Circle... And a DoT like Goring Bl... oh wait.

Been playing through FF7 Rebirth. Aerith is even more enjoyable than in Remake. Radiant Ward is ridiculously overpowered and stacks with Arcane Ward. If only a healer felt more like she does.

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Originally Posted by rawker

The main reason AST was changed from what it were to what we have at the moment is for that reason alone. There need to have a balance of 2 pure healers and 2 shield healers. AST used to fill both plus cards.

While we're at it, make the 5th healer melee. it has a 1-2-3 combo similar to PLD where one of its combo weaponskill restores MP.. A ranged spell like Holy Spirit and AoE like Holy Circle... And a DoT like Goring Bl... oh wait.

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I don't think you understood what I wrote. I'm fully aware of why AST was changed, I disagree with the design approach of a pure/shield healer , among other things it leads to the "oh gee, now what do we do if we want to add a new healer" issue. Not to mention, it's not it improved the AST design, nor would I say that it really prove itself as a concept.

Not to mention while having a PLD as a 5th healer is cute, but we already have one with an axe, so no thanks.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Here's my wish this morning: Give healers back their longer cast times. :p

Cast for 1.5s, move for 1s, cast for 1.5s, move for 1s..., it feels so silly and absurd.

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My personal wish would be a diversification of cast times.

WHM 2.5s cast (afflatus skills are your movement tool)
SCH 2.5s cast, can slow walk (Ruin II still necessary for further movements and for double weaving)
AST 1.5s cast (the healer with the greatest need for weave space)
SGE 2.5s cast but changes to instant cast when in melee range (makes some use of their gap closer)

I’m actually not opposed to the shield regen split because honestly does anyone expect we are ever going to another healer (remaking AST again doesn’t count)

They just need to lean into it more heavily than “shields get everything regens get just enough to make them barely functional”

If they had gone all in on shield healers being super heavy on mitigative effects (Virus, Disable, Eye for an Eye), it could have been a cool idea

The problem is that they had to make sure that the 'I didn't plan ahead at all' kind of players who heal by reacting to damage, could actually get through content, and a heavy focus on mitigative effects is very proactive, not reactive, leading to this situation where they're also quite 'bursty' in their healing (Indom, Ixochole, Pneuma, etc). And then they just doubledowned on it with giving them things that make zero sense, like increased HP recovery trait on Physis2 or the regen effect on Soil/Kerachole, liek why tf do barrier healers have so many options for recovering HP fast, when WHM has 'literally less party mitigation options/availability than MCH or DNC'?

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I would rather that they gave up on that concept altogether, and gave every healer some mix of regen and shield healer, in varying degrees.

In that case- introducing a 5th healer- which I'm not eager for, until the current ones have some reworks- wouldn't be problematic.

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Exactly my stance. If they want to have a differentiation in the healers between 'pure' and 'barrier', fine, but make it a 'soft split', rather than what we have now. Or a 'spectrum' of Pure/Barrier potential, as it were. Make it so that, while the Barrier healers have access to some strong Pure healing (but with opportunity cost, eg CDs, gated by gauge costs, etc), the Pures are the opposite, good access to Pure healing, access to Barriers but at opportunity cost. For example, SGE can AOE heal with Ixochole once per 30s at the cost of 1 Addersgall, and it can also AOE heal via a regen with Kerachole, also 30s and 1 Addersgall. Why not let WHM have access to a Lily spender, that applies a barrier? That way, not only does a new niche optimization arise (leave the shielding to the WHM to gain healer GCDs, because it's damage neutral), it has synergy within it's own kit (Temperance boosts the shield potency, Plenary causes it to heal AND shield), and the best part, that infuriating quirk of the design for Misery, of 'purposely waste resources overhealing to keep Misery aligned to your 2min', that's 'solved' somewhat, because you can instead spend that Lily on a shield that, while you might not need 'now', also has a 30s window to make use of!

Making it into a 'sliding scale' of Pure/Barrier capability instantly addresses the 'well we have 2 of each atm, what do we do for a 5th healer?' problem. Just slide it in wherever and adjust it's Pure/Barrier amounts within it's kit as required. Maybe it's more Pure than Barrier, and so the scale goes WHM, new, AST, SGE, SCH. Maybe they decide it should be the midpoint, where it's gameplay revolves around bouncing between a Pure and a Barrier stance of sorts, and so it's WHM, AST, new, SGE, SCH.

Also it'd mean we can get Stoneskin back like come on SE it's so obvious

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Originally Posted by Aravell

My personal wish would be a diversification of cast times.

WHM 2.5s cast (afflatus skills are your movement tool)
SCH 2.5s cast, can slow walk (Ruin II still necessary for further movements and for double weaving)
AST 1.5s cast (the healer with the greatest need for weave space)
SGE 2.5s cast but changes to instant cast when in melee range (makes some use of their gap closer)

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I am sorry no I do not want no 2.5 cast on sage, that fits more of whm and sch because of how they function.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Even on aesthetic level I was kind of baffled by how close to Scholar Sage is. Even the name is almost synonymous. Kind of makes sense the mechanics of it are a giant copy paste too, I guess.

It's the same damn job except pew-pew lasers instead of a fairy.

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Same thing with ast as being a copied clone of whm but cheaper spells and has cards instead of lillies which the cards are boring and do the same thing? Same like how the crafter/gatherers are the same thing? Kinda like how some bosses reuse old mechanics of other bosses which is the same thing? Even some glamours/eq are just literally recolored things. Some items even have the same looks with different name.

This is a 14 year old game and we can make one million or whatever topics each day and that is fine, the cold hard reality is SE is not going to change what they want to do with their game so other than we saying sage is a copy and paste only, please see other things that is copy and paste. I swear it gets so tiresome hearing the same copy clone each day. I think its apparent by now.

I get 90% of people hate the job, but the 10% of us who likes it(though I want a few changes like soteria/pesis/pnuma/tarochole/toxicon) but I hope it do not become another ast who even though its a solid job, its always had balancing problems because there is that one side that always has something to complain about ast. Big example people who hated on noct stance, now since sage release people want stances back?

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I don't see how introducing a 5th healer would balance the shield vs pure healers, and currently given the issues in some case with pure and shield healers, AND given what that carved out for the change to at least one job (AST)- I would rather that they gave up on that concept altogether, and gave every healer some mix of regen and shield healer, in varying degrees.

In that case- introducing a 5th healer- which I'm not eager for, until the current ones have some reworks- wouldn't be problematic.

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A 5th healer would be very.... interesting, for lack of a better word. AST and SGE are essentially WHM 2.0 and SCH 2.0, so what would this one be? "Green Mage" but it's just RDM with an aoe heal and hammer instead of rapier + thingamabob?

I feel like SGE more than SCH needs the restrictive cast times because SGE’s healing just has literally zero downsides, SCH already has to deal with a lot of extra presses to achieve a similar result (seraph looking at you) so would probably need about the amount of weaves current WHM gets (only from lilys and dia not from glare) to make it function better but SGE really needs something to slow down its disgusting HPS

That or remove pet heals from our GCD

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Originally Posted by Bole

I felt like SCH with another instant GCD (Phlegma or Miasma 2) and pet heals being off the GCD (like SB) would’ve been enough to solve some of shadowbringers problems.



How does it fit SCH but not SGE? SCH and SGE heal so similarly. Are you okay with SE using the same blanket solution for every healer?

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Cause everything sage does is pretty much instant and on the go with no punishment with only needing to cast normal prog(which you never almost use unless a lvl 20 or below dungeon or standard dosis. Why cant sage have some sort of advantage? Yall hate its much weaker shields already so it having a 2.5 second cast only is going to be hated more. It fits scholar because scholar shields= you need to stand to cast alco/succor unless swift cast but with the advantage of the most precious big shields ty to recite spread alco. I did say whm and sch not just scholar can we not be ignorant as if I said only sch geez?

Its like asking why should blm(whos the most powerful magical dps have a longer cast time(which I wish jolt is 1.5 cast too) than a rdm whos dps is far below in damage but its dual cast makes it does another instant spells after(god another job I wish they give some love to poor rdm but ofc this is not the forum to discuss about em). What am saying is weaker jobs with weaker dps or utility deserve to be more mobile than the stronger ones.

Every time someone wants a change to sage all I see is these ideas making it weaker and more hated than it is. I do not want it to be another Ast who's fun is taken away with crummy cards cause all these entitled people is the reason why ast is always a mess. Stormblood ast(the best ast gone) look at the garbage of it now, yes its healing kit is still great but the fun and aspects of card playing being all about rng all taken away and so braindead.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I feel like SGE more than SCH needs the restrictive cast times because SGE’s healing just has literally zero downsides, SCH already has to deal with a lot of extra presses to achieve a similar result (seraph looking at you) so would probably need about the amount of weaves current WHM gets (only from lilys and dia not from glare) to make it function better but SGE really needs something to slow down its disgusting HPS

That or remove pet heals from our GCD

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As stated to bole yes it needs some sort of advantage for its lack of utility and weaker shields by having no punishment. Just like whm is to be a easy job to relax for casuals and ast is to be hard and tactical, sage should be simple and fun for someone interested in shield healing but do not want to do all the big brain and planning out sch must be doing. Are we not trying to make them feel some what different as you asked me many times?

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

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The problem is that SGE is absolutely dripping in HPS that is both unbalancing the game and also removing the other classes niches, I’m personally fine with SGE having particular niches, it’s shielding on the go is great and I’m totally fine if it does a little more damage (I’d love them to try to break the dominance of buff healers in higher end comps, even if that makes SGE’s nuke potency cracked in casual content)

Think about it, if you ask someone what is the advantage of the fairy the one that most often comes to people’s mind is totem healing, it’s why whispering dawn has such a short range, if you asked someone what a good niche of WHM was in edens promise you’d likely get WHM’s heals can hit everyone during umbra tiles phase while SCH and AST couldn’t unless they relied on SCH’s totem or AST’s “buff limitless distance expiration heals” (like horoscope), then along comes SGE, all its heals come from itself, but it’s compensated with more mobility, a fair trade right, no because literally every single heal SGE has hits the next instance over. Physis is 30 yalms, pnuema is 25, kerechole is 25, holos is 30 it’s just absurd. SGE has zero downsides to its healing and absolutely no restrictions on the disgusting amount of HPS it can dump out (SGE is first by a pretty wide margin in HPS)

SGE needs a barrier on its HPS, limited weave windows is one particular option, nobody says it shouldn’t be compensated in another way for this (for example I’ve always said you should be able to use eukrasia on pneuma to give SGE a 20% mitigation that would put it far ahead of SCH on true mitigation at the expense of its weaker shields), I also believe SGE should get a more complex DPS rotation and be compensated for that with more damage

We don’t hate SGE it just needs limits on its HPS, it has almost twice the HPS of ShB AST who everyone at the time agreed was so disgustingly cracked that the game would never recover

Turn all SGE’s 25y/30y down to 15y-20y, then rework Icarus by giving them 3-4 stacks and making them potentially ground targetable plus 3rd charge of Phlegma as a band aid lmfao.

… I’m half joking…

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

Why cant sage have some sort of advantage? Yall hate its much weaker shields already so it having a 2.5 second cast only is going to be hated more.

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I know you're very 'in SGE's corner' but it's shields are exactly as strong as SCH's, with only one exception: the comparison between Deploy-Adlo and Zoe-E.Prog. Eukrasian Diagnosis shield is 180% of 300p (540p). Adlo is 180% of 300p as well. They both have the same 'if you crit, you get two copies of the shield effect instead of one' with Catalyze and Differential Diagnosis. Succor is 160% of 200p (320p). Eukrasian Prognosis is 320% of 100p (also 320p). The upfront healing of E.Prog is lower (because of the existence of regular Prognosis at 300p healing), but the shielding works out to be identical. Panhaima is 200p x5, Consolation is 200p x2 (but you can spread them out a bit further by delaying the second use further I guess?). Holos has a 300p shield attached, SCH has no tool that is analogous. If anything, it's SGE that has the stronger shields, and not because they're 'stronger', but because it just has 'more' of them to choose from.

A 2.5s cast time on SGE would work fine IMO. Might even make Toxikon and it's instantcast nature have some more interesting gameplay attached

I always assumed people say SCH has better shields because they can make it crit on demand thanks to recitation

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Originally Posted by Allegor

I always assumed people say SCH has better shields because they can make it crit on demand thanks to recitation

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A deployed adlo is the strongest shield in the game (its base shield potency with no buffs is about 810 potency of shield) but it is also very resource intensive which is its tradeoff

Adlo is a GCD you have to stand still to cast, recitation is a tool with other healing potential (600 potency critdom or 1200 potency critcog while removing their ED cost) and any buffs to its potency have other uses (protraction is also a 10% mitigation and can be used to buff other heals including the tanks own heals, dissipation is risky and usually done specifically for damage and fey illumination is also a raidwide mitigation)

Zoe+e prog only costs the GCD and Zoe who’s only other real use is changing Pnuema from 600 potency to 900 potency

I don't know how my suggestion got spun into me hating SGE, but if someone actually plays SGE a lot, they'd be able to see that the idea actually doesn't hurt SGE at all.

You get instant casts when you're close to the boss, which is where you're meant to be when weaving heals anyway since all your abilities originate from your position. Being unable to weave when far from the boss means you have to use Toxikon to weave if you're unable to get close, which gives value to Toxikon existing. And having the nice bonus of instant casts when close to the boss means Icarus has value when getting you back to the boss quickly after going out for a spread mechanic.

The only cons are that you get a shorter slidecast window and you can't weave when you're casting your filler far from the boss. Other than that, SGE's freedom isn't hampered very much at all since Eukrasian Diagnosis/Prognosis are still instant, Eukrasian Dosis is still instant, Phlegma and Toxikon are still instant.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

... dissipation is risky and usually done specifically for damage....

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Or if you need the extra Lustrates for those kinds of roulette runs where the tank is very stingy of their mits. XD

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Originally Posted by Bole

Holos is a really strong mitigation, and SCH doesn't have an equivalent source of shields. I assumed that it was buffed so much to give SGE something that can do what deployed crit shields can.

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It was, it way because SGE was getting excluded as the shield healer is DSR